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Face mask or no face mask?
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will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
Statement A is said to be required (even though it's really not been stated that way by those making the request).
Statement A in misstated form is not true.
Therefore throw the whole thing out, and anything even close to misstated Statement A is false too on anything else said.
Sadly there are many local news stories about people doing just that and acting on it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/02/man-who-went-party-warned-people-not-be-an-idiot-like-me-day-before-dying-covid-19/
Of course that's from a news source - so it gets thrown out too.
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We don't know for sure, but likely, yes, there would have been more deaths without the lockdown (such as it was). Italy is a comparison, where it seems shutting down reduced the cases.
What is your evidence that shutting down Italy permanently reduced the cases, as opposed to just delaying them? Especially considering it's having an increase in cases right now: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-08-20/italy-sees-845-new-covid-19-cases-highest-since-end-of-lockdown-in-mayLike I said, I personally think we should have responded more regionally (on a formal basis).
So then you agree with me, that the only reason to lock down would be to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed, not to permanently stop or eradicate cases?No, that's an oversimplification. No one is saying higher deaths is always about compliance. It seems to me obvious, in the US and Europe, that it has a lot more to do with other things too, like testing and tracing, population density, and how early the virus hit your area (i.e., extent to which you are an international hub with lots of travel). Also, things like reliance on public transit and extent of multi-generational families. I could likely come up with a whole lot more, but those seem like big things. Within communities, though, you can certainly see examples of non-compliance leading to outbreaks (and those events are similar to ones that led to outbreaks before we all knew better -- there are obvious likely super-spreader events, and we are seeing it now with college kids and parties).
Ok well this person who I was responding to, claimed that the spread of cases was due to "people not behaving."NZ's cases were from abroad. NZ has been generally open, because they managed to shut the border, quarantine those coming in, and thus have no community spread. What that means is that they should be able to get the current (very small, vs the US, it's crazy you seem to think we have any grounds to say they are not doing well) number of cases down to 0 pretty quickly, as they have a system in place and few enough cases that they can do real contact tracing and quarantine.
They don't even know where these new cases in New Zealand came from, and even resorted to claiming they may have come from frozen food shipments. My guess is that there was likely low-level community spread that was undetected, considering how many cases of COVID-19 are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/new-zealand-baffled-by-new-covid-19-cases-eyes-frozen-food-packaging/
And if you don't get rid of it entirely, all it takes is a few cases and it will begin spreading again. We know they failed at totally eradicating it once already. Then, of course, even if you do eradicate it, then you're stuck being cut off from the rest of the world until a vaccine that may never come or may take years.But to answer the question -- I think a hard lockdown combined with getting testing really up to speed early on would have allowed us to get cases down to a low enough number that we could be testing and tracing and could open schools (here stores are already open and restaurants for outside service, so schools are the main thing that I am concerned about being closed).
The US is testing on par with other Western countries (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing). Lack of testing has not been a problem for us for months.
Contact tracing, apart from having some serious privacy concerns, is also difficult to do when there is already established community spread. Even Germany's "successful" contact-tracing program is missing a lot of cases.
https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-why-testing-and-contact-tracing-isnt-a-simple-solution-137214
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/03/why-coronavirus-contact-tracing-apps-havent-been-a-game-changer.html
"In May, a report said Iceland had achieved the largest penetration of any virus-tracking app, with 38% of its 364,000 inhabitants installing it. But the Iceland app, which collected people’s GPS data, “wasn’t a game changer,” according to Gestur Pálmason, the deputy chief inspector of Iceland’s Covid-19 tracing team. "They aren't closed. They are merely closed to other countries, but for those quarantining. As it gets more in control in the rest of the world, that will change, and yes part of all this depends on whether we can get good vaccine or treatments.
Huh? In parts of Australia people are not even allowed to travel more than 5km from their home or exercise outside for more than 60 minutes. And they are stopped and harassed by the police whenever they go outside. That sure sounds "closed" to me.I think you've been reading some bad sources, because Australia has had schools open, and is certainly not entirely shut down. That people WITH the illness are quarantined doesn't mean everyone must stay indoors.
Bad sources? The Guardian is a "bad source"?
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/19/victoria-stage-4-restrictions-melbourne-lockdown-rules-covid-19-stage-four-metropolitan-metro-explained-what-you-need-to-know2 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you. I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.
Hi, you do you. I won't if we ever get the virus here in the community. I hope you are happy to spread it. I am not. I can do without being in a restaurant if it even needs to happen. I can eat still lol. Anyway no one will change your mind to caring about others. Selfish it is.
I'm selfish because I'm not a good little sheep? You are making ignorant assumptions. My Fiancee has a weak immune system do to Cancer. Even she goes to Crossfit. She goes to the store, resteraunts, etc. I'll decide what is best for me and my family, not the Government, you, or anyone else.5 -
will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
It really isn't though. All the campaigns I have seen make it pretty clear that the effort is to help those around you and it''s delivered as a really simple thing that you can do that might help.
Such a simple thing, that many people can't even wear a mask properly. I guess they think the virus can't enter through their noses. Or know anything about cross contamination. There is plastic on the keypad, I'm safe.4 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you. I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.
I don't live in fear. As a microbiologist, I respect this virus and the damage it can do. I am living my life accordingly for now, to protect me, my family, and my community.10 -
Running and hiding is not going to solve anything. Staying locked up is not healthy. We need to be exposed to germs and bacteria. If you are at high risk, then stay home. Our economy has taken a huge hit, I know as I'm an investor. Many people have lost their lives work. People have lost their jobs.
I'm very sympathetic about those who've lost jobs and livelihoods. A number of those folks are my friends and relatives, as I'm sure is true for many people here. I'm concerned for the ones I know, and the ones I don't (and have been helping as able, in practice).
I'm surprised, though, at the seeming implication that investors are suffering. (If the point, instead, is that investors have a clearer view of the negative economic consequences than the working folks, that seems improbable to me, too. Possibly on average they have a *more technical* view, at most.)
So far, the markets have been almost absurdly stable, and have had some notable recent growth points that would've been pretty predictable, and potentially profitable for an investor with some insight and a quick-ish trigger finger, a few months back. (I say this as a US retiree from a job with only a defined-contribution retirement plan, not taking social security, so my entire (non-wealthy!) financial picture is investment-related, outside of my (non-investment) real estate and personal property. I'm watching that egg-basket closely, believe me.)
It could fall apart at any moment, of course, but right now the markets here as a whole seem to be reasonably optimistic about the economic future. Market performance is pretty much the ultimate crowd-sourced opinion on that point, with all the advantages and demerits that crowd-sourcing always has (though the relevant crowd in this case is . . . invested, in many senses of the term).
Whether predictable, managed shutdowns have a lower or higher impact on the economy than unpredictable ones related to acute Covid outbreaks . . . that's a whole other very complicated topic, not directly related to the masks/no masks questions. I don't think the answer either way is certain, unless someone believes the pandemic is primarily mythical.
But yes, the economic consequences have been terrible, and massive.6 -
Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
Hey you. I appreciate your thoughts on masks. I don't know if you mentioned social distancing or not. If you do that then masks are not so important. Are you doing that? That is really important.
I go to the gym 3 days a week. I go to friends houses. I go to resteraunts. I'm not going to live in fear.
Hi, you do you. I won't if we ever get the virus here in the community. I hope you are happy to spread it. I am not. I can do without being in a restaurant if it even needs to happen. I can eat still lol. Anyway no one will change your mind to caring about others. Selfish it is.
I'm selfish because I'm not a good little sheep? You are making ignorant assumptions. My Fiancee has a weak immune system do to Cancer. Even she goes to Crossfit. She goes to the store, resteraunts, etc. I'll decide what is best for me and my family, not the Government, you, or anyone else.
I actually am really tired of the term sheep. Why am I a sheep and you're not. We are both following our own agendas. I don't know why so many of you who are against masks think that all of us who wear them are only doing it because the government says to. I have kept up with work on this virus. I choose to wear a mask because I truly believe it is the right thing to do. I don't need the government to tell me to.
As for your fiance, I wear a mask to protect everyone in that position, whether they care or not.15 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »
The problem is that [utilizing PPE and good hygiene] never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.
I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate. Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry). But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Now here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
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will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.10 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »We don't know for sure, but likely, yes, there would have been more deaths without the lockdown (such as it was). Italy is a comparison, where it seems shutting down reduced the cases.
What is your evidence that shutting down Italy permanently reduced the cases, as opposed to just delaying them? Especially considering it's having an increase in cases right now: https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2020-08-20/italy-sees-845-new-covid-19-cases-highest-since-end-of-lockdown-in-may
Italy's new case numbers, adjusted for population, are nothing compared to ours, and their deaths are not even comparable at the moment, they are so much lower. The upturn in some European countries hit hard before suggests to me that they are not at herd immunity (which makes it unlikely Sweden is, although I agree its numbers look good currently), and thus that it was the lockdowns that got the numbers under control. Reducing total cases until we understand more about the virus and hopefully have treatments that are more effective or a vaccine therefore seems like a good idea. I am not saying everyone should lockdown for months. IMO, the US has been economically hurt more because we didn't have a more strict lockdown/border closing and instead this is being prolonged with cases at a relatively high level in various places throughout the country.
But I will agree with you (maybe) that we should be humble about what we don't know yet, and assuming you know something we won't know for a year or 2 seems foolhardy.So then you agree with me, that the only reason to lock down would be to prevent hospitals from getting overwhelmed, not to permanently stop or eradicate cases?
I think that was the main reason, but I also think reducing unnecessary deaths from the virus is a good policy. I would say a short lockdown for the purpose of getting cases low enough so that we could trace and quarantine so reduce spread that way (what they did in some other countries) would have been a good thing, but we haven't actually done that. Instead we did this half-kitten thing that is miserable but allows still for extensive community spread many new cases, and thus feels never ending.
I think it should have been regional since if the borders had been shut between states, there was really no reason for some parts of the country to shut down early. And the longer a shut down drags on, the more people won't comply. More and more, where I am, people are just seeming to be over it, and I get it.Ok well this person who I was responding to, claimed that the spread of cases was due to "people not behaving."
I don't think the difference between places is that alone, no. I think within places some percentage of people not complying is related to the numbers within that place -- people ignoring the rules and having giant house parties, for just one example, I think can cause superspreading events. But this whole X state/country is good, Y state/country is bad is, I think, not a good way to approach the issue.They don't even know where these new cases in New Zealand came from, and even resorted to claiming they may have come from frozen food shipments. My guess is that there was likely low-level community spread that was undetected, considering how many cases of COVID-19 are asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/08/new-zealand-baffled-by-new-covid-19-cases-eyes-frozen-food-packaging/
Okay, fair, I was mixing their new cases up with one of the recent spikes in AU. but the fact remains that they have few enough cases that they can address these much more easily than the US can address our cases. I don't get the urge -- and honestly I think it makes the US look foolish -- to act like NZ has something to worry about. We have no hill to stand on here.And if you don't get rid of it entirely, all it takes is a few cases and it will begin spreading again. We know they failed at totally eradicating it once already. Then, of course, even if you do eradicate it, then you're stuck being cut off from the rest of the world until a vaccine that may never come or may take years.
If they get fast and reliable tests, as we seem to have here (although not in adequate numbers right now, they seem mostly to be used for bigwigs, although U of IL is hoping to use them as part of its on campus efforts), then they could use those going forward and not be cutoff.The US is testing on par with other Western countries (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing). Lack of testing has not been a problem for us for months.
I realize that, and made it clear I was referring to our EARLY response although response time is way too long even now. If you reread what I said, I said that we needed to be doing that early on, when test and trace was still a possibility. Now it seems too late with the level of cases we currently have.Contact tracing, apart from having some serious privacy concerns, is also difficult to do when there is already established community spread. Even Germany's "successful" contact-tracing program is missing a lot of cases.
https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-why-testing-and-contact-tracing-isnt-a-simple-solution-137214
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/03/why-coronavirus-contact-tracing-apps-havent-been-a-game-changer.html
Does it matter if Germany is missing a lot of cases if it's cases are as low as they are (as shown by deaths per capita -- a much better way to compare likely cases per country since everyone is missing lots of cases). They are in a position to safely open schools, it seems.Huh? In parts of Australia people are not even allowed to travel more than 5km from their home or exercise outside for more than 60 minutes. And they are stopped and harassed by the police whenever they go outside. That sure sounds "closed" to me.
I have listened to interviews with people in Australia about the current situation (well, a month ago), and that is not at all what was said, so I would like the people here from Australia to weigh in: " In Australia, most schools have remained open during the first epidemic wave, albeit with reduced student physical attendance at the epidemic peak."
Here's one source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30251-0/fulltext
Similarly, before the latest (mini, compared to most countries) outbreak in NZ, they were on Level 2 by mid May (which is as open as "opening up" is here, basically just try to social distance as possible at workplaces and schools and no gatherings over 100 -- Sweden also bans large gatherings -- and then Level 1, which is basically back to normal with added vigilance in early June. Way better than what we've been stuck with during that same period.
Also, the rules you are talking about are Stage 4 rules in place in discrete parts of AU with spiking cases, but they are temporary, and for a much shorter time than the shutdowns that parts of the US have been dealing with, because they were in the past able to get cases under control. And because they have borders between states shut, other areas are not affected by those and can have less strict rules. I personally think that: (1) no more than 5 km from your house, and (2) no more than 1 hour outside make no sense (and may be counterproductive), but that doesn't hurt the economy more than the US style shutdowns would, I wouldn't think. IMO, it is far worse to have longer ineffective "shutdowns" than stricter short ones when needed.
I think generalizing about temporary rules in discrete parts of Australia as if they were what Australia in general had had since this all started is misleading, and part of the disconnect in this conversation, although I am not saying you were meaning to be intentionally misleading.5 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »
LOL this is why the push for everyone to utilize PPE and really just good hygiene, so that we can continue on with normal~ish lives and not have to lock down. It's a trade off. It sucks and it isn't fun, but necessary I think.
The problem is that it never gets anywhere. We never get conclusive info on to what extent masks and hygiene prevent the spread of COVID-19. And we never get a policy that allows more things to open up because masks and hygiene are mitigating the spread. That's why a lot of people don't believe masks work. Well, that, and all the virtue-signaling memes people constantly post about them on social media, which makes them seem more like a political talking point than anything else.This is just totally wrong. "Smug posturing" Wow. Oh and they "behaved" well ummm yeah well they did sorry to tell you. Try it, it works when you behave. A few cases is NOTHING compared to the USA. Gosh what are you thinking???
You're literally making a smug post about how your country "behaved," in order to tell me that people in your country weren't acting smug about zero cases and claiming they "behaved."
Call me back in two years and let me know how it all turned out over there in the end. All you guys are doing is delaying cases.Also to laurenq1991. You do realise the people being kept in quarantine in Australia are staying in rather nice hotels? They aren't being forced to stay in a hell hole. It isn't that they are put in some jail. Yes maybe now they have to pay to stay now but it's not a bad place to be but they knew they would have to right now. Don't travel if you can't afford the stay in a nice hotel for two weeks. I have paid to stay in some of them for vacation so I don't care what it's called it's still nice hotels, you are just doing what you should be doing to stop the spread of the virus. It's not hard. You get meals delivered and all the mod cons lay back, watch TV or work from there if you can.. no big deal.
You mean like the people who were imprisoned in their low-income apartments in Melbourne with no food, medication, or baby formula? Yeah, this sure looks like a five-star hotel to me!
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/aug/14/police-presence-at-melbourne-towers-was-dehumanising-infectious-disease-doctor-says
https://au.news.yahoo.com/tower-lockdowns-spark-dozens-complaints-004300913--spt.html
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coronavirus/2020/07/06/public-housing-lockdown-coronavirus/
"Residents yelling for help from windows, friends turned away from dropping off care packages and masked police officers at the end of every corridor.
This is the scene for about 3000 residents trapped inside public housing towers brought under sudden lockdown in Melbourne."
"But the tense atmosphere outside a public housing block in Flemington tells a different story.
There, residents said they feel more like they’re in jail.
On Sunday, cries for help could be heard coming from the flats at 12 Holland Court.
A sign plastered onto a fifth-floor window read: ‘Treat us as humans, not caged animals’."
"In one instance, Mr Ige said it took the Department of Health and Human Services “at least 24 hours to deliver baby formula”.
Alkira Austin, a 27-year-old Gunditjmara woman, said one family had to wait 18 hours before they were delivered any food packages.
“And the food packages were so basic – just pasta and sauce, and no bread or milk,” Ms Austin told The New Daily."
And these nice hotels are so great, that the people in them want to kill themselves and "distressed children" are spreading human waste on the walls, and the guards ignore it.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/victorian-coronavirus-hotel-quarantine-inquiry-told-dhhs-staff-ignored-suicide-threats-lost-track-of-guests-at-parkroyal/ar-BB18aJMk
"Meanwhile, a Melbourne lawyer who stayed at the Rydges Hotel has revealed images showing the filthy room he and his family were asked to stay in, which included discarded gloves on the floor, scraps of food and a blood-stained doona."
"Jen said this resulted in daily welfare checks not being conducted on a family for a week.
"It was very obvious that DHHS were having a hard time keeping a track of who was in the hotel and when," she said."
"Another woman suffering "excruciating" pain from endometriosis was denied access to a kettle to boil water by DHHS staff, Jen said. The kettle was to be used to boil water to make herbal medicine that the woman regularly used while suffering the condition.
"They were in so much pain it was affecting their speech," Jen said."
https://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/kids-spread-human-waste-covid-hotel/4081360/
"It is thought the family's distressed children spread human waste in the room."
Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.13 -
Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.4 -
I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Wear your mask and save humanity.3 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.
Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now. I'm getting by day by day doing all I can to keep my loved ones safe. I don't believe eradication was on the agenda here just to do what we can to keep the cases as low as we can.
I can't speak for NZ but I think Australia is doing ok, try not to worry so much about us and our endgame.
Nobody can predict what life will be like anywhere in the world 5 years from now so I'm just doing what I need to to do my part and hope that life gets back to normalish.9 -
slimgirljo15 wrote: »
Personally and this is just my opinion I don't care about the "endgame" or what it will be like 2 years down the track. I'm concentrating on the here and now. I'm getting by day by day doing all I can to keep my loved ones safe. I don't believe eradication was on the agenda here just to do what we can to keep the cases as low as we can.
I can't speak for NZ but I think Australia is doing ok, try not to worry so much about us and our endgame.
That has basically been my overall point. Hey, all youins across the US, we are doing fine, stop messing with us and worry about yourselves.2 -
BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.11 -
laurenq1991 wrote: »I think this is a good point. At this stage in the pandemic, the effectiveness of masks should not even be in question, but even the CDC cannot point to any well-conducted and conclusive studies and put an end to the debate.
Exactly! And on top of that, these organizations (CDC, WHO, etc.) have claimed masks don't work twice -- first in February/March/April, and then again briefly in early June before backtracking. Is it any wonder people don't believe them?Don't get me wrong, I am in favor of wearing masks. I think it's the right thing to do (better safe than sorry).
Yeah it really doesn't bother me to wear a mask either. It is an annoyance, and I think it's mostly security theater (I compare it to the TSA liquid and shoe-removal restrictions), but if mask-wearing was the only thing we were required to do for COVID-19, I would have no problem with it. To be honest, my problem is really more with how nasty and judgmental people get over even questioning the established narrative. You aren't even allowed to question whether masks are effective without being painted as some kind of "conspiracy theorist who is antivax and doesn't believe in water fluoridation", even though the actual studies on masks come out both for and against. Just like you aren't allowed to question the lockdowns without being called a "selfish grandma killer."But I don't feel the same way about the lockdowns. The cost that we paid for these lockdowns (and continue to pay) is staggering. Devastating. and if we remember correctly, they were never intended to reduce the number of cases ... only to slow it down so that the hospitals could keep up.
Again, if the lockdowns had actually been used for the originally stated purpose only -- preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed -- I would have absolutely no problem with them. And if they had only been used for that purpose, they would have been over months ago in my area, because our cases and deaths peaked in April.
The problem is that people don't even see the second-order deaths and negative effects from other causes, because they really aren't being tracked. People are trying to get their hands on the 2020 suicide statistics for example, and that data isn't even available -- the latest suicide data available is from 2017. But we sure have COVID stats!
However, here are some articles on second-order effects. Just a sampling...there's a lot more where that came from.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200528-why-most-covid-19-deaths-wont-be-from-the-virus
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/13/unicef-6000-children-could-die-every-day-due-to-impact-of-coronavirus
https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/08/18/Study-suggests-horrifying-rise-in-domestic-violence-during-pandemic/3921597767583/
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52527994
https://abc7news.com/suicide-covid-19-coronavirus-rates-during-pandemic-death-by/6201962/
https://www.nj.com/opinion/2020/05/a-month-of-hell-my-appendectomy-had-to-wait-because-of-coronavirus.htmlNow here it is, five months later. Lockdowns are still in place, and Covid-19 is on track to become the third largest cause of death in 2020 (in the USA, not sure about global stats). I'm not surprised that people are reacting poorly
The thing that makes me angriest is that it has completely gutted the area in which I live. I've lived in, or within 10 miles of, NYC my entire life (except for college). Within just a few months, NYC has regressed to where it was in the 1970s, due to these lockdowns. Don't get me wrong, NYC had a lot of worsening problems in the last few years, but the rapidity with which it has degraded is shocking. The rich people and their vitally important tax dollars are never coming back -- Cuomo is literally begging them to come back, and they don't want to. Most of the middle class are jumping ship. My husband's job is WFH and many of his coworkers have moved to other states or regions and aren't coming back. Small businesses have been absolutely decimated. Crime is way up, poverty and homelessness are way up, domestic violence is way up. And because the rich people left and so many other people are unemployed, there's going to be no tax base next year to fix any of these problems. And yet, the lockdowns still won't end, despite extremely low case and death rates for months. The last time NYC was in this bad of a situation, it took over 25 years to recover. My dad is a born and raised NYer and loves NYC, and lived through the 70s/80s there. Even he said he will probably never visit Manhattan again, because it's too unsafe now. Like many people, I'm researching other states to move to.janejellyroll wrote: »No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Pretty much every pro-lockdowner I know who went to the anti-police brutality protests claimed that there was no way there could be any spread of COVID-19 because "everyone was wearing a mask" (even though photo and video evidence shows that a lot of people weren't). They then accused me of being a racist for saying that COVID-19 could spread at the protests and for showing photos/videos proving that not everyone was wearing a mask or social distancing. I had this argument multiple times with different people.slimgirljo15 wrote: »Cherry picking the worst of the stories in the news still doesn't detract from the fact that we've done relatively well. Yes, there was a problem initially in those towers with the sudden shut down, but they were sorted as soon as they were bought to light and after a few days many were moved out to other accommodation. Of course nobody wants to be shut in but 2 weeks later they came out of it ok. Life goes on. The government here is doing the best they can, you can't make everyone happy of course but I for one am very proud of how we are doing. It may not stay this way but for now.. I say good job.
This person claimed that everyone being quarantined was being sent to nice luxury hotels. I posted articles showing that was not the case and now I am being accused of "cherry picking." While, funnily enough, the other person is not accused of "cherry picking" the positive stories. How biased.
Still, nobody has answered the question I've asked multiple times, of what the endgame is for Australia and New Zealand with their lockdown strategy, since eradication didn't work.
Who, exactly, said there was "no way" COVID-19 could ever be spread during a protest where someone was wearing a mask? We're talking about reduced risk. I don't recall ever seeing someone saying that wearing a mask could eliminate the possibility of transmission.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »will_it_go_round_in_circles wrote: »Masks do nothing but give a false sense of security. You better wear a respirator, goggles, and gloves. Dispose of gloves before entering your vehicle. Sanitize your car and anything you purchased when you get home. You better take your clothes off in the garage, and immediately take them to the washer. Then take a shower. If not, you are putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.
If security is what you're looking for in a mask then you need to change your expectations. No one has stated that it makes you secure from becoming infected, only that it can help to stem the tide of free floating droplets. It's not an end all by any means. It's helpful. Why not take all the help you can get? You've expended more energy resisting and damning the idea than it would take just to put one one and run to the store.
I know the limitations of masks. It's conveyed to the masses that they are some sort of magic shield.
No, it's not. I live in the same culture you do. Nobody is claiming they're a magic shield. Stop being silly.
Wear your mask and save humanity.
You're being deliberately ridiculous here. We're talking about risk reduction, not "saving humanity."
Although if you want to be part of the continuation of humanity, risk reduction -- in multiple areas of life -- is a pretty good idea.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »BrustMannEiner wrote: »Ya'll leave me alone and I'll leave you alone. We don't mask around here. The biggest threat, as I see it, to our rural community, is those from more densely populated areas trying to get away from the 'rona and putting us as risk. To those of you leaving the areas you no longer feel safe in and coming to our communities because you need fresh air, I'll regurgitate a statement that others have directed towards us for not wearing a mask, "You're selfish".
I'd also point out that it's becoming more and more regular that individuals forced to wear masks are complaining about personal health problems they are beginning to experience.
Masks are not intended to protect me I'm told. Masks are intended to reduce the risk I may infecting others. Social distancing is important I'm told. Well, I'll continue taking personal responsibility for myself and you do the same. Feel free to stay away from those of us who don't wear masks. I do not patronize any place that 'requires' me to wear a mask so I'm doing my part to stay away from you.
If people from other areas were coming to my town bearing potentially infectious diseases, I'd feel even more strongly about them wearing a mask to help protect me in the situations where I may encounter them. And I'd feel even more strongly about wearing a mask to help protect my friends and neighbors from anything that I might have been exposed to due to the increased traffic in my area.
As a resolution I agree to disagree with your statement.2
This discussion has been closed.
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