Thoughts on the “glamourizing/normalizing” obesity vs body positivity conversations

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Theoldguy1 wrote: »

Wiseandcurious wrote: »

siberiantarragon wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

For myself, I don't spend much time considering what could have been if other people had done or would do some other thing, especially if it's in the past.

It's not in the past though. The COVID situation is ongoing and getting worse, and is projected to last several more months at least. Even after COVID is done with, pandemics happen fairly frequently (the last one was only 10 years ago --H1N1) and the population is less and less able to handle them as their overall health declines due to obesity. Diseases that might not be pandemics in a healthier population, might be pandemics in a less healthy one. There's also the larger policy question of the responsibility of the individual to society -- is it our civic duty to maintain our personal health? So these questions won't just go away.

I'm old (65) and have the start of COPD, so I'm at higher risk of dying, but I can't wrap my head around considering whether I should take more blame for the pandemic and its consequences because of those things (if I hadn't lived with smokers most of my life, despite not being one, I probably wouldn't have the COPD . . . .).

I wouldn't consider those factors to be blame-worthy. I also don't judge people who were obese and decided to get to a healthy weight because of COVID, or people who choose to remain obese but also disagree that everyone else should sacrifice in order to protect them.

I do wonder, though, if age has to do with our different responses to the lockdowns. I'm 29 and spent my first 22 years living in a violent, abusive household, so I feel like I barely got to live and missed out on a lot in my life, and now even more is being taken away. It sucks to not even be 30 and feel like "well, this is the limit of what I'm going to experience in life." I lost many years of my life because my family couldn't get their act together, and now it just feels like this is a variant of the same thing.

Truly, I'm sympathetic, but don't feel that I have any way to help. I think this is probably not the thread for it, either, especially if we diverge from the subject of obesity and its "glamorization".

The discussion did diverge from the original point.

From my direct and indirect observation and anecdata, many of the people who gained in the pandemic are not obese, just on the verge of normal weight. I.e. obese and normal BMI gained alike. The fact that most people gained is due to moving less when wfh, since no commute (plus probably stress eating, food inequality issues etc. but reduced movement is a huge factor). And before you say that they should have used the commute time to do extra sport - statistics show most people use that time now to do extra work! The fear of losing their livelihood is real, as well as all other stressors, mental health issues etc.

Sorry people gained weight during the pandemic because they chose to eat more calories than they burned (just like weight gain over holidays, a vacation, etc).

Weight gain is not the pandemic's fault, need to look in one's own mirror.

Let the disagrees and excuses begin.

Yes, people gained weight because they consumed more than they burned.

But I think for the average person this isn't exactly a deliberate choice. It's not like we have calorie meters on our arms that tell us when we've had what we need for the day.

I know there are tools available, but most people weren't using them pre-pandemic.

I know I've gotten a lot of flak for saying that many people don't have a great concept of how weight management works, but for the average person, they're not going to look at a plate and have a great understanding of how it fits with their calorie needs for the day -- especially if their calorie needs have suddenly gone down due to changes in their lifestyle.

So while it's true that people gained weight because they consumed more than they need, think about how many people here -- people who are already motivated to lose weight and are starting to use these tools -- struggle with getting the basics of calorie counting and then consider someone trying to balance that without any of the tools.

I do think a lot of people were caught off-guard by how they were suddenly using fewer calories. Combined with the context of not really understanding how much they were eating before and in newly stressful situations, I'm not surprised at the outcome, especially since so many people mistakenly believe they NEED to exercise to lose weight and we tossed gym closures on top of all that.

I think we can find a balance between personal responsibility AND acknowledging that a lot of people had a bunch of weird stuff tossed in their lap this year.

We don't have calorie meters on our arms but most of us wear clothes.

When articles of clothing start getting noticeably tighter it's a pretty good indicator one has gained some weight and needs to back off on the eating and/or increase activity to stop the gain and lose what was gained.

About 15% of the US population has gym memberships. I would venture to say those with the memberships and actually were using them before covid found alternative ways to move. The people with dedication to an active lifestyle didn't just quit because their gym closed.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a global pandemic that turned the daily life of most people completely upside down and then sideways could result in other priorities taking over their regular exercise routine. My wife and I are pretty health nutty and movers...we both put on weight in 2020...I put on about 15 Lbs. We tried to keep moving, and have to an extent, but things were completely different and we ultimately had bigger fish to fry. Having an 8 and 10 year old at home that have been doing online learning and unable to see their friends for 9 months is a massive "take care of their mental health" task...being in one of the strictest lockdowns in the nation for 9 months has also taken a mental toll on my wife and I...working at home, living at home, hardly leaving home, etc for 9 months is brutal.

Things are just starting to open up a little bit...you can go to the gym now, but you have to schedule your time...which is nice in the sense that they aren't busy with a scheduled number of people...capacity 25%. Grocery and essentials are still at 25% but at least they eased off of the 25% or 75 people whichever is smaller...still have some lines, but nothing like the hours long lines we were having the last few months just to grocery shop. Retail is now open at 25%...still no indoor dining and limited capacity patio dining...which is basically worthless when the high temps are in the 30s...so mostly carryout if you want to do something like that.

My wife and I are getting back into things in 2021...but yeah...2020 was rough and completely turned our lives upside down...I'm certainly not going to beat myself up for putting on 15 Lbs while prioritizing other things in a global pandemic.

siberiantarragon wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a global pandemic that turned the daily life of most people completely upside down and then sideways could result in other priorities taking over their regular exercise routine. My wife and I are pretty health nutty and movers...we both put on weight in 2020...I put on about 15 Lbs. We tried to keep moving, and have to an extent, but things were completely different and we ultimately had bigger fish to fry. Having an 8 and 10 year old at home that have been doing online learning and unable to see their friends for 9 months is a massive "take care of their mental health" task...being in one of the strictest lockdowns in the nation for 9 months has also taken a mental toll on my wife and I...working at home, living at home, hardly leaving home, etc for 9 months is brutal.

Things are just starting to open up a little bit...you can go to the gym now, but you have to schedule your time...which is nice in the sense that they aren't busy with a scheduled number of people...capacity 25%. Grocery and essentials are still at 25% but at least they eased off of the 25% or 75 people whichever is smaller...still have some lines, but nothing like the hours long lines we were having the last few months just to grocery shop. Retail is now open at 25%...still no indoor dining and limited capacity patio dining...which is basically worthless when the high temps are in the 30s...so mostly carryout if you want to do something like that.

My wife and I are getting back into things in 2021...but yeah...2020 was rough and completely turned our lives upside down...I'm certainly not going to beat myself up for putting on 15 Lbs while prioritizing other things in a global pandemic.

Wasn't the entire point of lockdowns to reduce the risk of people dying from COVID-19? If the lockdowns caused people to gain weight, which increases their risk of dying from COVID-19 (as it said in that article I posted, it's the second-biggest risk factor after age), that seems a bit counterproductive, doesn't it? If we had a culture that didn't normalize obesity so much, perhaps this discrepancy would have been recognized. Now we have a whole lot of people who are at higher risk of dying from COVID-19 (and a bunch of other causes) than they were back in March, because they weigh more. And if you point this out, then people get mad at you, because we've been getting this messaging for years that any discussion of the health risks (or public health burden) of obesity amounts to "fat shaming."

Normalizing obesity and understanding that having your life flipped upside down and putting on a few pounds because of it isn't the same thing. I put on 15 Lbs...I'm not remotely obese...but I had way bigger fish to fry than worrying about my workouts, my weight, etc. My circle of friends are very fit, active, and healthy people...every single one of them, including my trainer has put on a some weight in 2020. Acknowledging that *kitten* happens, and this is on a global scale and nothing like anyone of this generation has ever lived through...and maybe that just might result in some different priorities isn't normalizing obesity.

Suffice to say that if people who are generally active and fit and actively take care of their health can struggle keeping up with things during a global pandemic, the general public who wasn't paying much attention before are going to struggle worse...I don't personally think that has anything to do with normalizing obesity. It's been well known since the beginning of this whole thing that obesity is one of the big risk factors in regards to mortality...it hasn't been some kind of secret.

Also, I disagree that the entire point of the lockdowns was to reduce the risk of people dying from COVID...the overwhelming point of the lockdowns was to prevent the overrun of the healthcare system. I've known numerous people now who've had COVID and several who were hospitalized...none of them were even close to obese and were in my age group, which isn't young, but it's not old either.

And we've seen that play out with countries with lower obesity rates having lower death/hospitalization rates than countries with higher obesity rates, as I've already stated many times and posted evidence to support it.

[/quote]

So, the only reason I will engage again is because you seem to again fixate on some perceived discrepancy (your word) between having social distancing measures and not having extra measures against obesity - I really don't care about the obesity part because hey, it's the debate forum - knock yourself out! but re:social distancing, implying that it is unnecessary while other things are supposedly at fault, that other things would be more effective against, can impact some gullible souls compliance amd literally cost lives.

No, the statistics do not bear out what you are saying above, top countries up there with the US in the stats of covid deaths per capita (linkmprovided upstream, easy google) include many with lower obesity than the US, what they have in common is inconsistency of response and perhaps also aging populations, but mostly inconsistency of response. Down the list - countries with better response. I am not saying it's the only factor but that it's the biggest one.

''Insane lockdowns'' - your words - does not equal timely lockdowns and co sistency of response in general, which includes things like continually monitoring, high test rates, tightening and loosening measures proactively based on predefined data at a level dictated by scientists, mandatory masks indoors, government not pushing back against the science, etc. Etc.and most of all high compliance.

siberiantarragon wrote: »

cwolfman13 wrote: »

I put on 15 Lbs...I'm not remotely obese...but I had way bigger fish to fry than worrying about my workouts, my weight, etc. My circle of friends are very fit, active, and healthy people...every single one of them, including my trainer has put on a some weight in 2020.

Then you and your friends are not who this discussion is about. This discussion is about obesity. So I'm not sure why you posted in this thread at all.

Acknowledging that *kitten* happens, and this is on a global scale and nothing like anyone of this generation has ever lived through...and maybe that just might result in some different priorities isn't normalizing obesity.

The stated purpose of lockdowns is to prioritize lowering the risk of dying from COVID-19 and overrunning the hospitals. Increasing both the percentage of overweight and obese people, and the overall BMI of those who are overweight/obese, runs counter to that. Obesity should literally have been one of THE top priorities for 2020, judging by the public health goals that were set and stated to us.

Also, I disagree that the entire point of the lockdowns was to reduce the risk of people dying from COVID...the overwhelming point of the lockdowns was to prevent the overrun of the healthcare system. I've known numerous people now who've had COVID and several who were hospitalized...none of them were even close to obese and were in my age group, which isn't young, but it's not old either.

Anecdote != data. I've already posted articles from reputable sources stating that studies show obesity is the top risk factor for dying/being hospitalized for COVID-19, after age. Therefore a higher obesity rate increases the risks of hospitals being overrun. And we've seen that play out with countries with lower obesity rates having lower death/hospitalization rates than countries with higher obesity rates, as I've already stated many times and posted evidence to support it.

Governments have been trying to tackle the obesity epidemic for decades...you can't force someone to lose weight. There has been plenty of education out there for decades about the dangers of obesity. Overall, it isn't something that the government or private industry can control. The government and private industry can control compliance with mask mandates and social distancing.

The obese know they're obese...and they know they're at higher risk for a wide range of health complications, including COVID...it isn't a big secret.

gracegettingittogether wrote: »

There is wide spread fear, anxiety and depression, even if not in your circle. Look up the rates of suicide. I think we should be promoting ways to control the feeling of helplessness that overwhelm so many, instead of neglecting ways to help us manage Covid.

I just did. November 2020 publication https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4352

Nevertheless, a reasonably consistent picture is beginning to emerge from high income countries. Reports suggest either no rise in suicide rates (Massachusetts, USA11; Victoria, Australia13; England14) or a fall (Japan,9 Norway15) in the early months of the pandemic. The picture is much less clear in low income countries, where the safety nets available in better resourced settings may be lacking. News reports of police data from Nepal suggest a rise in suicides,12 whereas an analysis of data from Peru suggests the opposite.10

People also lose weight during lockdown, so there is that. The biggest risk factor for the virus was age, not obesity, although that does seem to be a risk factor. As the numbers grew, we came to find that plenty of supposedly healthy younger people can also die, or acquire long term health complications. The pandemic is no good, but it's not really an apt comparison to the obesity epidemic nor is obesity the cause of the virus or lockdowns. I think the pandemic is going to cause people to reckon with their personal relationship to their bodies and health in general. I know it made me stop and think about my own health, safety and how I want to go forward in this crazy world.

I think the body positivity movement is a good thing for teaching children and people who don't already know to appreciate and care for the wonder of the gift that has been given to them. I think glamourizing any specific body should be kept to a minimum of yourself, and then if you wish to glamourize your temple, go for it. Normal is relative and over rated. Be exceptional, no matter your size or circumstance.

siberiantarragon wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

In actuality, low vitamin D would be much easier to treat than obesity, because I think being obese and the solutions to it are multi-faceted for many people (not just that they are "uninformed," "lazy, or "lack willpower"_ and just need to "eat less and move more"-not my thoughts).

Which is probably why public health experts should have recommended for everyone to take a vitamin D supplement, but for some reason they didn't. I've been taking one since I first heard about the vitamin D and COVID-19 thing in April, because even if it turns out to not be a risk factor, it can't hurt (it also had the fortunate side effect of clearing up the terrible PCOS-related cystic acne I had for several months before that, and which nothing else would fix!) However, as I said, low vitamin D is still not listed on the list of risk factors. Which tells me that probably there isn't enough evidence to prove a correlation, or the correlation is weak, or it's one of those "correlation != causation" things. In any case, there must be some reason why it's not on there after all this time.

And you are absolutely correct in that people know they are obese, and most likely already know that it's a risk factor for COVID complications. I know the people I know that are obese do.

Then why would they rather destroy society indefinitely than do something about it? It's one thing to harm yourself and that's something I understand, but when other people are collateral damage, that's when it becomes unfair.

I guess I've become (or tried to become) more of the mindset that I can't control the actions of others, even if I'd like to or think it's for the common good

Yeah as I said in an earlier post, I'd prefer it if I got to mind my own business and everyone else got to mind theirs. And that was the world we lived in prior to 2020. But that's not the world we live in anymore. Everyone else gets to control my actions, to an extreme degree, under the auspices of "for the common good." They get to say "you're not allowed to socialize anymore for the good of society" and so on and even enforce it with fines and jail time. So if it's going to be like that, then I think that should be a two-way street, and I should be allowed to say "you don't get to overeat anymore for the good of society." How are the two things any different?

I do know that obesity in and of itself (even outside of COVID) can increase the strain on the healthcare system, yet I feel it's a little late at this point to negate its affects when it comes to COVID.

We don't know how much longer COVID is going to go on, but it seems like most experts are predicting at least several more months. In any case, losing weight can't hurt.

Should the government get involved somehow? How would that even work?

According to the precedent set by this past year, a) yes, and b) if their previous actions are any guide, probably through mandatory food rationing, fines, and jail time.

I’m trying to understand why someone who takes such issue with the government dictating how you can socialize, would be okay with them taking such control over things like “mandatory food rationing.” It’s an asinine suggestion that fining or throwing people in jail for being obese will really prevent that problem. People still get DUIs. People still use heroin. People still shoplift. The government rationing our basic needs would create far larger problems while putting very little dent in an obesity problem.

siberiantarragon wrote: »

Speakeasy76 wrote: »

I don't know where you live but it's not like that where I live, and I live in a state in the US that's been more extreme with their restrictions. We don't get fines or jail time, however, if these aren't followed.

Well, we do get fines and jail time for violating the laws. But where I live is pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to restrictions. If I lived in California, the UK, France, or Australia, it would be a lot worse. And when we're having this discussion, we should consider how many people worldwide are still in that strict lockdown situation even to this day, not just what's going on in our local area.

It sucks, but not one time did I think that obese people need to do their part and lose weight so my kids can go back to school.

Why not? Could it be because society tells you that's a taboo thing to consider? Or because obesity is so normalized that people aren't seeing how much of a negative effect it really has?

I still am able to socialize with a few select people

We are allowed to socialize with a few people now, but for months we weren't, and it could all be taken away at any time now that the precedent is set.

Also, it's not me telling people to wear masks, close restaurants, avoid travel and limit gatherings of more than 10 people. It's the government doing this--big difference.

Yes, exactly. The government is mandating this. So why does it offend people to suggest that if they are going to make it illegal to go to work and socialize, they should also have some legal restrictions on obesity?

The other thing is, this pandemic is stressful for everyone, and how some people cope with stress is by eating. When one is dealing with a lot of stress (and for some this may be huge stressors, like dealing with the loss of a loved one from COVID or losing one's job), it's often not the best time to embark on a weight loss journey, even if for the "good of society."

Well, I cope with stress (and OCD, PTSD, and suicidal thoughts, etc.) by socializing. 2020 wasn't the best time for me to embark on a "don't see anyone for five months journey" for the "good of society," yet I was expected to do it. Why are some coping mechanisms acceptable, and others aren't, even though both increase the risk of COVID deaths?

As I already mentioned, I’m someone who also lives with PTSD and OCD, so I say this with the best of intentions. If you are not already doing so, I urge you to get in touch with your mental health provider. In a couple posts you’ve expressed you’re struggling with your mental health and the lack of socialization that usually helps you cope. They may be able to provide support or resources, especially since you just moved to a new area.
I feel like you’ve gone down what I like to call “the rabbit hole” and have found comfort in focusing on the fixable “obesity” issue being the larger issue than the overall pandemic and struggle that’s come with it. The “fat people” have given you something to focus on and blame and it’s not healthy or helpful for you, or others.

Sorry all- I know that has nothing to do with the OP but from what I’ve seen the thread already went down another path.

qhob_89 wrote: »

I’m trying to understand why someone who takes such issue with the government dictating how you can socialize, would be okay with them taking such control over things like “mandatory food rationing.” It’s an asinine suggestion that fining or throwing people in jail for being obese will really prevent that problem. People still get DUIs. People still use heroin. People still shoplift. The government rationing our basic needs would create far larger problems while putting very little dent in an obesity problem.

I'm trying to understand why someone who supports making socializing and working illegal in order to "save lives" would NOT support mandatory food rationing, fines, etc. in order to save lives. Socialization is a basic need and working for a living is necessary, yet both have been rationed for the past year while putting very little dent in our COVID problem. It's necessary to health to socialize, whereas it isn't necessary to health to be obese (quite the opposite actually).

Of course I don't support fining people for being obese or rationing food, even if it saves lives. But I also don't support making socializing and work illegal to save lives. I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in logic here. Why do most people think the one is ok, but not the other?

qhob_89 wrote: »

As I already mentioned, I’m someone who also lives with PTSD and OCD, so I say this with the best of intentions. If you are not already doing so, I urge you to get in touch with your mental health provider. In a couple posts you’ve expressed you’re struggling with your mental health and the lack of socialization that usually helps you cope.

What mental health provider? A mental health provider over Zoom who is already booked with patients because 25% of the country now want to kill themselves? (https://qz.com/1892349/cdc-depression-and-anxiety-rises-for-us-adults-since-covid-19/) And what advice are they going to give? Getting out and about, and establishing social connections, is a necessary part of treatment for both PTSD and OCD. If that's not allowed, then what advice can they possibly give?

I feel like you’ve gone down what I like to call “the rabbit hole” and have found comfort in focusing on the fixable “obesity” issue being the larger issue than the overall pandemic and struggle that’s come with it. The “fat people” have given you something to focus on and blame and it’s not healthy or helpful for you, or others.

No, I'm just pointing out facts that people don't want to hear even though they're supported by evidence. Don't mistake someone having an unpopular opinion with that opinion being based on emotions rather than facts. I think it's a testament to the normalization of obesity in our culture that people are clinging on to their right to be obese much more tightly than they are on their right to socialize and work.[/quote]



Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs... socialization is not a basic need. Is working necessary? For most in the general public, absolutely. However, nobody has made working illegal. You still never clarified where you live. I live in Chicagoland/suburbs and we’ve had a significant amount of “lockdowns” and it’s not as bad as you keep mentioning. Since March 2020 I’ve gone to the grocery store multiple times a week and I’ve socialized with a few friends (responsibly) and never had an issue. Everything I’ve seen about people getting arrested or fined for violating social distancing/stay-at-home orders/lockdowns is due to large gatherings, events, etc. If anything more extreme then it’s been in large cities such as NYC.
I’m a mental health professional. Mental health providers have always been backed up or there’s been lack of access. (That’s a whole different topic!) If you’ve been diagnosed with PTSD/OCD I assume you have a provider. Getting out and about and socialization have never been a part of my treatment plan. So that’s not a one size fits all necessity for PTSD or OCD treatment. If I’m being honest, I’ve actually done better not getting out and socializing everyday. If socialization is part of your treatment plan, zoom/FaceTime/Skype with your friends, plan to see a couple of them- wear mask and social distance. Talk to the cashier at the grocery store, get a job at the grocery store and socialize with the general public.
I’m not obese, so I’m not defending “my right to be obese” over “my right to socialize.” I haven’t seen anyone on this thread do so. I defended the idea that people should have access to food (and basic needs) without that being rationed. As you see in the pyramid, health and safety trump socialization and sense of connection. Do I like that there are lockdowns and possible fines for gatherings? No. But that’s how things are being handled, so I deal with it. There are many people unsatisfied with that idea, just as there were people upset over seatbelt laws and mandatory health insurance. But what do we do? We carry on and accept it.

I don't even understand how food rationing would operate. Presumably we'd get assigned the number of calories we need to maintain our ideal weight, but everyone has a different amount of activity based on their lifestyle and job. So does that mean I'd get assigned the 1,460 I need to maintain at a sedentary level (because I have an office job) and I'd just have to stop exercising? I actually need 2,000 a day to maintain my weight, so my choices would be to resort to the black market or eliminate activity.

Or is the idea that only the overweight and obese would be subject to rationing?

I'm really curious about the mechanics of this proposal. Even if one believed that the role of government was to determine -- through force and penalties -- the size of our bodies, the logistics seem daunting. People in the US weren't even willing to skip large Thanksgiving and Christmas gatherings, there's no way they'd just blithely accept the government determining how much food we're allowed to have on the tables at those gatherings. I am not sure if we're talking about a specifically American context here or not, but I just don't see that being pulled off.