Creatine and aesthetics, does it help or hurt, is it worth it? ...

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Replies

  • richardgavel
    richardgavel Posts: 1,000 Member
    sgt1372 wrote: »
    I stopped taking creatine about 4 wks ago after taking it daily for 8 months.

    Have not noticed any weight gain, loss of strength or any change in muscle definition or physique.

    So, at least for me, it apparently makes no difference if I take it or not.

    Why would you expect to see those types of differences, when you consider what creatine is supposed to do, draw water into your muscles to allow a extra rep or so, meaning more muscle stressing mean more muscle buildup. So going off it primarily would affect the rate of increase your lifts go compared to without it.
  • ZveroTarik
    ZveroTarik Posts: 2 Member
    Almost any site on the internet will tell you that creatine is just about the only supplement that works.
  • ZveroTarik
    ZveroTarik Posts: 2 Member
    edited May 16
    ZveroTarik wrote: »
    Almost any site on the internet will tell you that creatine is just about the only supplement that works.

    If you train hard, it might make sense to try SARMS. Sarms for Sale from Paradigm Peptides, according to my friend, when taken in cycles, can help build muscle mass. Although creatine gives your muscles more energy, why not increase your working weights and training intensity because all of that will eventually affect your growth. Creatine increases testosterone production, which builds muscle and speeds up protein synthesis.
  • GaryRuns
    GaryRuns Posts: 492 Member
    ZveroTarik wrote: »
    ZveroTarik wrote: »
    Almost any site on the internet will tell you that creatine is just about the only supplement that works.

    If you train hard, it might make sense to try SARMS. Sarms for Sale from Paradigm Peptides, according to my friend, when taken in cycles, can help build muscle mass. Although creatine gives your muscles more energy, why not increase your working weights and training intensity because all of that will eventually affect your growth. Creatine increases testosterone production, which builds muscle and speeds up protein synthesis.

    What? Sometimes I miss the dislike button...

    Last I heard SARMs were not considered safe for human consumption by the FDA, although I admit my information dates from a couple of years ago. Also, many athletic organizations prohibit their use and some SARMs will cause you to test positive for improper steroid use when testing is required by your sport.

    I don't want to get into a debate about being on gear, but putting SARMs out there in the same class as creatine is madness. No matter your view on using gear as a lifter, nobody would argue they're even in the same league. I'm sure even people who use SARMs would admit there are serious risks associated with their use, especially in the long term. The biggest risk with creatine is that you might get an upset stomach or get gassy.

    And "creatine increases testosterone production"? What? Not a chance. If that were true it'd be all over the research that has been done on creatine for at least a decade. The only way that I'm aware that's been shown to significantly increase testosterone, naturally, without TRT, is to lead a healthy lifestyle. Exercise, eat right, get plenty of sleep, don't be obese, etc. And sometimes even that doesn't help.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,632 Member
    ZveroTarik wrote: »
    ZveroTarik wrote: »
    Almost any site on the internet will tell you that creatine is just about the only supplement that works.

    If you train hard, it might make sense to try SARMS. Sarms for Sale from Paradigm Peptides, according to my friend, when taken in cycles, can help build muscle mass. Although creatine gives your muscles more energy, why not increase your working weights and training intensity because all of that will eventually affect your growth. Creatine increases testosterone production, which builds muscle and speeds up protein synthesis.

    "according to a friend" - quite possibly the worst reason to take an illegal supplement!
    And a supplement that is unregulated, probably in the wrong dosage even if it contains what it claims to contain on the label.

    "creatine increases testosterone" - huh?

  • gninja2022
    gninja2022 Posts: 8 Member
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.
  • GaryRuns
    GaryRuns Posts: 492 Member
    edited June 16
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.

    No, no you shouldn't cycle creatine. There is no scientific evidence, that I'm aware of, that you accomplish anything by cycling creatine, as opposed to just taking the typical daily dose of 5g. The only somewhat related methodology is to take 10-20g a day for a week or two in order to saturate your body with creatine more quickly. But you can take 5g/day and it'll just take a bit longer to saturate your system.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,039 MFP Moderator
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.

    This defeats the whole purpose of creatine. It's a muscle saturate and takes several weeks to hut optimal saturation levels.
  • gninja2022
    gninja2022 Posts: 8 Member
    GaryRuns wrote: »
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.

    No, no you shouldn't cycle creatine. There is no scientific evidence, that I'm aware of, that you accomplish anything by cycling creatine, as opposed to just taking the typical daily dose of 5g. The only somewhat related methodology is to take 10-20g a day for a week or two in order to saturate your body with creatine more quickly. But you can take 5g/day and it'll just take a bit longer to saturate your system.

    So for me if I continue to take creatine at 5g per day consistently I have an increased water retention and I have to balance it. I see this with other people also. Are you bodybuilding as well and using this as a sup, keen to understand your approach if you don't have fluid issues.
  • gninja2022
    gninja2022 Posts: 8 Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.

    This defeats the whole purpose of creatine. It's a muscle saturate and takes several weeks to hut optimal saturation levels.

    You are right and wrong. Saturation yes, but for shorter periods due to possible effects. If you are young 100% healthy then you can advise them to take a consistent high dosage, but not everyone on here is like that so have caution with your advice.

    Your kidneys have to clean all creatine from your system and your loading then with all this additional waste creatine is bad.

    Humans carry about two grams of creatine per kilogram of lean muscle mass (one gram per pound). The maximum we can put into muscles is about 3g/kg (1.4g/lb)[47]. To hit this level, a 70kg male would need about 25 grams of creatine supplementation. We only use about 2g per day.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,039 MFP Moderator
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Don't forget you should really cycle creatine as you can only store so much in your muscle, I do 4 weeks of 5g a day and 4 weeks off it.

    This defeats the whole purpose of creatine. It's a muscle saturate and takes several weeks to hut optimal saturation levels.

    You are right and wrong. Saturation yes, but for shorter periods due to possible effects. If you are young 100% healthy then you can advise them to take a consistent high dosage, but not everyone on here is like that so have caution with your advice.

    Your kidneys have to clean all creatine from your system and your loading then with all this additional waste creatine is bad.

    Humans carry about two grams of creatine per kilogram of lean muscle mass (one gram per pound). The maximum we can put into muscles is about 3g/kg (1.4g/lb)[47]. To hit this level, a 70kg male would need about 25 grams of creatine supplementation. We only use about 2g per day.

    Where are you getting this stuff? Creatine has been shown to be safe. Even if you load, you should only load for 1-2 weeks. Optimal dosesge us 5g per day, which can't be achieved with diet alone.
  • gninja2022
    gninja2022 Posts: 8 Member
    Do your own research then have a grown up conversation chap. https://academic.oup.com/ckj/article/4/1/23/376016 as an example , is the earth flat as well?
  • ccrdragon
    ccrdragon Posts: 3,257 Member
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Do your own research then have a grown up conversation chap. https://academic.oup.com/ckj/article/4/1/23/376016 as an example , is the earth flat as well?

    Okay, so one person had a bad reaction... it does not mean that reaction can be extrapolated to rest of the general population - esp. given the vast numbers of routine users.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,632 Member
    Here's a source of some good information on creatine
    https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/

    Lots of studies linked, it can be used indefinitely, cycling on/off isn't required.

    Summary from the section about interaction with kidneys.....
    "Moreover, numerous scientific reviews on both the long- and short-term safety of supplemental creatine have consistently found no adverse effects on kidney function in a wide range of doses."
  • GaryRuns
    GaryRuns Posts: 492 Member
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Do your own research then have a grown up conversation chap. https://academic.oup.com/ckj/article/4/1/23/376016 as an example , is the earth flat as well?

    It seems like common sense that if you take it and it makes you sick stop taking it. There are people that have reported less severe symptoms when taking it, particularly gastric issues, so it's not completely uncommon, but it's certainly rare according to the research that's been done for decades.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,039 MFP Moderator
    gninja2022 wrote: »
    Do your own research then have a grown up conversation chap. https://academic.oup.com/ckj/article/4/1/23/376016 as an example , is the earth flat as well?

    You present a single person case study and suggest that either I or others need to have a grown up conversation? Maybe you should evaluate your ability to research before making absurd comments.

    If you want real research, look at the examine.com site as it is an unbias source of scientific information. But in case you want to do a little reading, below are many meta analyses on the topic of creatine, it's usage and safety. And just in case you don't understand the prioritization/weighting of scientific evidence, below is a pyramid.

    Evidence_Pyramid.jpg

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5679696/


    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2018.00115/full

    "In adults, a growing number of published randomized controlled trials are available that support the safety of creatine supplementation. These studies have been conducted in both athletic and general populations and range from as short as a few days to as long as 5 years without any adverse changes in markers of clinical health (12, 13). Multiple studies have assessed and reported that creatine supplementation has no adverse impact on clinical health markers in competitive athletes (13–17), non-athletic populations (18–25), and in clinical populations (26–29). Furthermore, recent evidence suggests that creatine supplementation is unrelated to the formation of carcinogenic heterocyclic amines in humans, which was a long-standing concern due to creatine's potential role as a precursor of the compounds (30). Generally, the only clinically-relevant side effect of creatine supplementation is weight gain (primarily fat-free mass), which is often a desired outcome in athletes, primarily ones with an emphasis placed on strength, power and body size, and clinical patients with any type of muscle wasting disorders (2). A summary of these studies can be found in Table 1."

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0173-z

    "In a normal diet that contains 1–2 g/day of creatine, muscle creatine stores are about 60–80% saturated. Therefore, dietary supplementation of creatine serves to increase muscle creatine and PCr by 20–40% (see Fig. 4.) [7, 8, 10, 46,47,48]. The most effective way to increase muscle creatine stores is to ingest 5 g of creatine monohydrate (or approximately 0.3 g/kg body weight) four times daily for 5–7 days [7, 10]. However, higher levels of creatine supplementation for longer periods of time may be needed to increase brain concentrations of creatine, offset creatine synthesis deficiencies, or influence disease states [13, 19, 23]. Once muscle creatine stores are fully saturated, creatine stores can generally be maintained by ingesting 3–5 g/day, although some studies indicate that larger athletes may need to ingest as much as 5–10 g/day in order to maintain creatine stores [7, 8, 10, 46,47,48]. Ingesting creatine with carbohydrate or carbohydrate and protein have been reported to more consistently promote greater creatine retention [8, 22, 49, 50]. An alternative supplementation protocol is to ingest 3 g/day of creatine monohydrate for 28 days [7]. However, this method would only result in a gradual increase in muscle creatine content compared to the more rapid loading method and may therefore have less effect on exercise performance and/or training adaptations until creatine stores are fully saturated. Research has shown that once creatine stores in the muscle are elevated, it generally takes 4–6 weeks for creatine stores to return to baseline [7, 48, 51]. Additionally, it has been recommended that due to the health benefits of creatine, individuals should consume about 3 g/day of creatine in their diet particularly as one ages [27]. No evidence has suggested that muscle creatine levels fall below baseline after cessation of creatine supplementation; therefore, the potential for long-term suppression of endogenous creatine synthesis does not appear to occur [22, 52]."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1756464621002176



    "During the past 30 years, creatine has been attentively investigated to detect, assess, understand, and prevent any side effects or adverse event linked to its use in human nutrition and medicine. A vast majority of pharmacovigilance studies demonstrated favorable safety of supplemental creatine, with creatine poses no adverse health risks in healthy people and clinical populations across various life stages and conditions, at dosages ranging from 0.03 to 0.8 g per kilogram of body weight per day for up to 5 years (for a detailed review see Balestrino and Adriano, 2019, Antonio et al., 2021). An initial mild weight gain (~1–2% of body mass) is the only consistently reported side effect from creatine supplementation (Eckerson et al., 2008, Deminice et al., 2016, Almeida et al., 2020). This effect appears to be dose-dependent since lower doses of creatine (e.g., 0.03 g/kg/day) cause no weight gain or notable changes in body composition (Rawson, Stec, Frederickson, & Miles, 2011). In line with affirmative evidence from safety trials, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently recognized creatine monohydrate as a safe ingredient (Generally Recognized as Safe, GRAS) (Food and Drug Administration, 2020), which labels creatine as a non-toxic food substance under the conditions of its intended use. A search through the Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition Adverse Event Reporting System (CAERS), a database that contains information on adverse event and product complaint reports submitted to the FDA for foods, dietary supplements, and cosmetics, revealed that creatine (and multi-component products containing creatine) was recorded in only 23 reports out of 30,766 (0.075%) (CFSAN Adverse Event Reporting System, 2021). This further strengthens the proof of creatine harmlessness although any individual report requires attention and careful evaluation for systematic causality. Sporadic case reports described in the literature have been refuted in well-controlled clinical studies showing that creatine supplementation does not increase the incidence of gastrointestinal distress, musculoskeletal injuries, or kidney dysfunction (for a detailed review, see Kreider et al., 2017). Interestingly, creatine appears safe when supplied through a regular diet at the populational level. For instance, the odds ratio for having failing kidneys in U.S adults consuming ≥ 2.0 g/day of dietary creatine compared to low-intake counterparts (<1.0 g/day) was 0.74 (95% CI from 0.39 to 1.38) (Ostojic, 2021b), indicating no significant association between creatine intake and kidney dysfunction in the general public. Still, patients with renal impairment should not be treated with creatine unless careful analysis of the risk‐benefit balance proves favorable (Balestrino & Adriano, 2019)."