Bringing politics back up...
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DoingItNow2012
Posts: 424 Member
It seems to be what spurs the most discussion, plus it's been awhile.
After watching cnn's post debate analysis (vice presidents), I am convinced there was nothing Obama could have done to win his first debate. If he was more aggressive, maybe he wouldn't have been seen as losing by such a big amount, but he wouldn't have won.
On a side note, I am truly an independent voter (the polarization in this country is disturbing). I know how I stand on issues and know how to seek out the same information from the candidates. I can accept someone voting opposite me if their chosen candidates match their values and their views on the issues. Soooo, who are these undecided voters and what information do they need to decide? Why can't they find it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQOwFquNLKo&sns=em
After watching cnn's post debate analysis (vice presidents), I am convinced there was nothing Obama could have done to win his first debate. If he was more aggressive, maybe he wouldn't have been seen as losing by such a big amount, but he wouldn't have won.
On a side note, I am truly an independent voter (the polarization in this country is disturbing). I know how I stand on issues and know how to seek out the same information from the candidates. I can accept someone voting opposite me if their chosen candidates match their values and their views on the issues. Soooo, who are these undecided voters and what information do they need to decide? Why can't they find it?
![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yQOwFquNLKo/0.jpg)
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I'm undecided because I disagree heavily with both candidates on some issues, and agree with both candidates on others. So what I need to figure out is which issues matter the most to me. I may vote third party just to not have to vote for either of these yahoos.0
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I think a lot of people are undecided because the Republican party has been hijacked by the Tea Party, and the Religious Right. I wish they would split off into a third party. I think it would shake off a lot of indecision, since I don't believe most people want to vote in a theocracy, but are left without a viable choice.0
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I read this tweet and it germane to this discussion:
"The next reality show should feature 12 'undecided' voters locked in a grocery store-where we can watch them starve to death."0 -
obama could have won the debate by acting like he wanted to be there and being more engaged. i was shocked at how bad he did.
i bet he does better next time.0 -
I'm not even wasting my time watching that farse... the people hosting it say they are "non-partisan" but they don't allow anyone else on the podum... and you can't tell me that a third party is a waste of a vote. Not when a third party candidate has a theoretical and mathematical chance of winning (Gary Johnson is on 47 states and D.C's ballot as a candidate (not as a write in either).. by the end of this he may end up on every ballot except Oklahoma's and that's only because their election board is a bigger farse than the debates)... that is if people were allowed to know he existed let alone what he stands for. And how can people know he exists if he doesn't get the same mass media exposure as the other two?0
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I'm undecided because I disagree heavily with both candidates on some issues, and agree with both candidates on others. So what I need to figure out is which issues matter the most to me. I may vote third party just to not have to vote for either of these yahoos.
Well that makes sense that you are trying to figure which issues are more important. We all have to do that though because there is unlikely to be a perfect candidate, one that represent us completely, as they are not us.
I do think more voices (third party) should be included in the national discussion/debate. But if they can't garner the grassroots support to get at least 15% of the vote, which is the only thing that stopped Gary Johnson from participating in the debates, then i'm not all that fired up about it. I have yet to see a third party candidate that I am willing to throw my vote behind anyway, based on the issues.
So yes I am choosing from the candidates that are applying for the job. Truth is, I'm not really dissapointed with the candidate pool. Having more people involved doesn't necessary improve the quality of what is available. And when I am not the only one that gets to make the decision, I surely know that one candidate is unlikely to represent 100% of my views.
What I do wish for is more clarity, more facts, and less noise/distortions and trickery. Can't politicians sue each other for libel? :laugh: Maybe the threat would keep them honest. It sucks to always have to dig for the truth through the murkiness. But I try to do so to make my best decision.
Edit: not accusing you of not taking the time to research. I quoted you as a starting point. Mainly the first sentence applies to you. The rest are just my feelings in general when I hear statements of "false equivalency".
I fortunately or unfortunately enjoy politics and never get frustrated enough to throw up my hands. Sometimes it takes a little more work and thought to make a decision. But I do it.0 -
For me, the most troubling moment(s) of the night was Joe Biden laughing at every serious question, especially the questions regarding a nuclear Iran. I don't find his dismissive brush-off of the question to be reassuring, and I am truly frightened at how he seems to find it all very amusing.
You all know where I stand. Obama's surprise poor performance and Biden's predictably bad one are giving me hope that Romney can win.0 -
I am just glad that Biden finally stated that the next president will get to name 1-2 Supreme Court Justices, opening the door to theocratic rule.0
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I do think more voices (third party) should be included in the national discussion/debate. But if they can't garner the grassroots support to get at least 15% of the vote, which is the only thing that stopped Gary Johnson from participating in the debates, then i'm not all that fired up about it. I have yet to see a third party candidate that I am willing to throw my vote behind anyway, based on the issues.
I disagree with this statement that the only thing stopping Gary Johnson is support... though it is true he doesn't have 15% of vote... however, neither did Perot when he got his spot on the debates. Gary Johnson has just as much support... He may not have the money that Perot does and did... but he has the same level of voter support as Perot. Yet again, Perot got a spot on the floor. The reason why third parties don't get the support they should and they would most likely get, is because the common voter has the idea that a third party vote is a wasted vote and will take away from their candidate stuck in their tiny brains (yes, I'm being condescending here... but this idea and even myth infuriates me to no end) that they would rather vote for someone they dislike less than someone they like and agree with the most. But what is keeping the third parties locked out is the establishment... via not allowing them to debate (even though they are on the majority of ballots)... they get taken off of ballots for BS reasons as it might upset the establishment (such as the case in Oklahoma where write in candidates aren't even allowed) even though they had the petition signatures required and then some to get on the ballot. Third parties are not "viable" because the establishment wants it that way.
And to be honest, I am finally excited about a candidate... for the first time in my voting life. Is he perfect, not by any means... but IMO, he is a hundred times better than the main choices we have.
BTW, if anyone is interested, there will be a debate of the minor party candidate (Gary Johnson, Jill Stein and two others) on LinkTV (which is on Dish and DirectTV) and Al Jezeera... it will also be streamed online as well. www.freeandequal.org/live it will be broadcast on Oct. 23 at 8 pm CST. In the end, I don't really care for who anyone votes for.... I just want to put the information out there so that people can make a completely informed decision.... not just holding their nose.0 -
I do think more voices (third party) should be included in the national discussion/debate. But if they can't garner the grassroots support to get at least 15% of the vote, which is the only thing that stopped Gary Johnson from participating in the debates, then i'm not all that fired up about it. I have yet to see a third party candidate that I am willing to throw my vote behind anyway, based on the issues.
I disagree with this statement that the only thing stopping Gary Johnson is support... though it is true he doesn't have 15% of vote... however, neither did Perot when he got his spot on the debates. Gary Johnson has just as much support... He may not have the money that Perot does and did... but he has the same level of voter support as Perot. Yet again, Perot got a spot on the floor. The reason why third parties don't get the support they should and they would most likely get, is because the common voter has the idea that a third party vote is a wasted vote and will take away from their candidate stuck in their tiny brains (yes, I'm being condescending here... but this idea and even myth infuriates me to no end) that they would rather vote for someone they dislike less than someone they like and agree with the most. But what is keeping the third parties locked out is the establishment... via not allowing them to debate (even though they are on the majority of ballots)... they get taken off of ballots for BS reasons as it might upset the establishment (such as the case in Oklahoma where write in candidates aren't even allowed) even though they had the petition signatures required and then some to get on the ballot. Third parties are not "viable" because the establishment wants it that way.
And to be honest, I am finally excited about a candidate... for the first time in my voting life. Is he perfect, not by any means... but IMO, he is a hundred times better than the main choices we have.
BTW, if anyone is interested, there will be a debate of the minor party candidate (Gary Johnson, Jill Stein and two others) on LinkTV (which is on Dish and DirectTV) and Al Jezeera... it will also be streamed online as well. www.freeandequal.org/live it will be broadcast on Oct. 23 at 8 pm CST. In the end, I don't really care for who anyone votes for.... I just want to put the information out there so that people can make a completely informed decision.... not just holding their nose.
Blujay, you re right that at the time of the debates in 1992 he did not have 15% (7-9%), but he did have much higher previous to that. I am not pretending I have this knowledge in my head, I had to go look it up. I couldn't quickly find national poll numbers for Gary Johnson. I also found that 15% rule was adopted in 2000. I agree that the rules tend to benefit the two parties and don't doubt that there are back room dealings to do so. I also don't think it is a waste to vote for who you believe best represents you, nor is it wrong to vote for who you prefer to be in office out of the top two. Your vote your choice.
I believe we will see a stronger third party soon, and I would be for a loosening of the rules or even a whole other board governing the debates. If a petition came my way, I would support it, if a vote was required I would do it. However, this is not an issue I am passionate enough about now to champion...but again I would support.
I am genuinely happy for you that you are truly excited about a candidate. I also support you trying to getting the message out. That is what will build the attention you desire. The third party grassroots campaigns will have to be stronger, money or no money. You can also find video of Gary Johnson on YouTube of course.
Edit: you should post a reminder closer to the debate, maybe have a debate of the debate on here.0 -
I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.0
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I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.
I like Gary Johnson. He was a very popular governor. You would think he would leverage that popularity and run as a Libertarian for an office more attainable like the House or Senate.0 -
I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.
I like Gary Johnson. He was a very popular governor. You would think he would leverage that popularity and run as a Libertarian for an office more attainable like the House or Senate.
But why? If he got into the House or Senate, he wouldn't be able to do anything he would be one vote among many... Granted he won't win the presidency... I know he won't... But he is making a mark... and he is planning on running in the next election as well.0 -
I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.
I like Gary Johnson. He was a very popular governor. You would think he would leverage that popularity and run as a Libertarian for an office more attainable like the House or Senate.
But why? If he got into the House or Senate, he wouldn't be able to do anything he would be one vote among many... Granted he won't win the presidency... I know he won't... But he is making a mark... and he is planning on running in the next election as well.
I am of the opinion that in order for a 3rd party to become a reality it has to build it's base. In order to do that, they have to win local and state elections. Rather then run for President, which they have no chance of winning, these third party candidates should work on building the base.
Gary Johnson is very popular in New Mexico so it is not a stretch to believe that he could get elected to the House or Senate for that state. Yes he would be one vote among many but at least he would have a vote. After November he will be back to working with his non-profits or whatever he is doing right now.0 -
I think a lot of people are undecided because the Republican party has been hijacked by the Tea Party, and the Religious Right. I wish they would split off into a third party. I think it would shake off a lot of indecision, since I don't believe most people want to vote in a theocracy, but are left without a viable choice.
This is exactly how I feel too.
I tend to lean left on a lot of issues, but there's also a part of me that wishes I had some real choices sometimes. I feel like the only choice I really get to make is in the primaries in non-incumbent years when I get to choose among democrats who I like best.
I flat out refuse to vote for any candidate that supports legislation based on a religious argument. So that pretty much rules out the entire national GOP ballot.0 -
For me, the most troubling moment(s) of the night was Joe Biden laughing at every serious question, especially the questions regarding a nuclear Iran. I don't find his dismissive brush-off of the question to be reassuring, and I am truly frightened at how he seems to find it all very amusing.
He wasn't laughing at the questions. He was giving Ryan's answers the response they merited.0 -
I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.
I like Gary Johnson. He was a very popular governor. You would think he would leverage that popularity and run as a Libertarian for an office more attainable like the House or Senate.
But why? If he got into the House or Senate, he wouldn't be able to do anything he would be one vote among many... Granted he won't win the presidency... I know he won't... But he is making a mark... and he is planning on running in the next election as well.
I am of the opinion that in order for a 3rd party to become a reality it has to build it's base. In order to do that, they have to win local and state elections. Rather then run for President, which they have no chance of winning, these third party candidates should work on building the base.
Gary Johnson is very popular in New Mexico so it is not a stretch to believe that he could get elected to the House or Senate for that state. Yes he would be one vote among many but at least he would have a vote. After November he will be back to working with his non-profits or whatever he is doing right now.
I think regardless of the level, libertarians (whether they are libertarian Republicans or Libertarians) get little to no media exposure and what little they get it's usually bad. I know that is true here in Texas. In Texas we had a libertarian Republican running against Perry (Lord, I wish we could get rid of him)... her name is Debra Medina... well she was holding her own numbers wise and had a good shot.. that is until Perry hack, Glen Beck went on to call her a conspiracy theorist and all the typical libertarian stereotypes and names the mainstream like to label Libertarians. The Libertarian candidate Kathy Glass, got almost nothing from the media.You seriously have to dig to find the third party candidates... how do they stand a chance against that?0 -
For me, the most troubling moment(s) of the night was Joe Biden laughing at every serious question, especially the questions regarding a nuclear Iran. I don't find his dismissive brush-off of the question to be reassuring, and I am truly frightened at how he seems to find it all very amusing.
He wasn't laughing at the questions. He was giving Ryan's answers the response they merited.
I don't think Ryan's answers were laughable but even if they were Biden's behavior was unbecoming of a vice president.0 -
I believe Gary Johnson is polling at around 5% right now. But that's because most polls won't put him on there.
I like Gary Johnson. He was a very popular governor. You would think he would leverage that popularity and run as a Libertarian for an office more attainable like the House or Senate.
But why? If he got into the House or Senate, he wouldn't be able to do anything he would be one vote among many... Granted he won't win the presidency... I know he won't... But he is making a mark... and he is planning on running in the next election as well.
I am of the opinion that in order for a 3rd party to become a reality it has to build it's base. In order to do that, they have to win local and state elections. Rather then run for President, which they have no chance of winning, these third party candidates should work on building the base.
Gary Johnson is very popular in New Mexico so it is not a stretch to believe that he could get elected to the House or Senate for that state. Yes he would be one vote among many but at least he would have a vote. After November he will be back to working with his non-profits or whatever he is doing right now.
I think regardless of the level, libertarians (whether they are libertarian Republicans or Libertarians) get little to no media exposure and what little they get it's usually bad. I know that is true here in Texas. In Texas we had a libertarian Republican running against Perry (Lord, I wish we could get rid of him)... her name is Debra Medina... well she was holding her own numbers wise and had a good shot.. that is until Perry hack, Glen Beck went on to call her a conspiracy theorist and all the typical libertarian stereotypes and names the mainstream like to label Libertarians. The Libertarian candidate Kathy Glass, got almost nothing from the media.You seriously have to dig to find the third party candidates... how do they stand a chance against that?
I agree... I think the media does all they can to keep a 3rd party candidate from getting any type of real traction. Wouldn't it be great if we could get a 3rd party candidate in office and show BOTH parties that they aren't our only hope...lol0 -
For me, the most troubling moment(s) of the night was Joe Biden laughing at every serious question, especially the questions regarding a nuclear Iran. I don't find his dismissive brush-off of the question to be reassuring, and I am truly frightened at how he seems to find it all very amusing.
He wasn't laughing at the questions. He was giving Ryan's answers the response they merited.
I don't think Ryan's answers were laughable but even if they were Biden's behavior was unbecoming of a vice president.
I agree. His posture and behavior were not respectable.
I wish he would've answered questions instead of dismissively laughing them away. When Ryan asked him "Then why do they keep suing you?" re: The Catholic church/Obamacare, he didn't answer. When asked about a nuclear Iran he just shrugged it away...oh that won't happen....har de har.
Why didn't he answer any questions about Libya? Why isn't the media skewering him and the Pres for (literally) ignoring the ambassador to death?0 -
Biden didn't answer Ryan's question about why the Catholic bishops are suing because the debate was nearly over and the moderator moved the discussion back to abortion rather than leaving it on contraception.
I'll give you my opinion on why the Catholic bishops are suing: Because they want the government to enforce their "moral teaching" against contraception since they have been unable to convince their congregations to follow it voluntarily.0 -
I'm in California, so I don't see a lot of presidential campaign ads. Every once in a while there will be one during the news. In the last few days, I've seen a Romney ad that consists of Biden laughing at Ryan.
The video is embedded here: http://hotair.com/archives/2012/10/14/new-romney-ad-features-laughing-biden-while-ryan-talks-fiscal-discipline/
I'm not good at overcoming my biases, but the message I get from that ad is "Ryan is not to be taken seriously." I'm sure the message they were going for is "Biden is not serious" or "Biden is rude."
Do people think it is a good idea to run an ad showing your candidate being mocked?0 -
The focus groups showed that while Democrats were energized by the laughter and by Joltin' Joe's demeanor as a whole, Independents and undecideds were turned off.
So, I would suggest that you're probably not the demographic these ads are targeting.0 -
No doubt. I'm sure that they are not going for the "wouldn't vote for a Republican under any imaginable circumstances" demographic.
When you say, "The focus groups showed," Swanny, have you got anything I can see myself? I don't doubt what you're saying, but I'd like to see more detail if you know where I can find it. Thanks!0 -
Small sample in teh CNN undecided voters in VA here: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1210/11/se.04.html
While it calls it a draw, it does point out they chose 8 low points for Biden as opposed to only 1 for Ryan.
And because I did not watch the debate, I relied somewhat on twitter for a play-by-play. This is some of what I was seeing and why I make the claims that I did:
http://twitchy.com/2012/10/11/cnn-voter-dials-not-friendly-to-vp-biden/
Not the most scientific, I know.0 -
I watched the debate on CNN. I had a hard time following that tracker. Not to mention these sample groups are what prompted me to ask who these undecided voters are and why can't they find the information they need to make their decision.
It will be interesting to see if there are any telling questions in tonight's debate since the audience is made up of undecided voters. But I suspect it will be the same stuff we've heard over and over.
The truth is I suspect that most know who they are voting for, but are just looking for their chosen person to give them a better/stronger reason. Maybe something they can better defend. I mean I could understand the indecision if the majority of views the two candidates held were similar. I can more understand the person trying to decide which issues are more important to them, but then that person really wouldn't or shouldn't be looking for the candidates or news to tell them. That's an inside job they have to figure out for themselves.
It seems that a majority in this group have already made up their minds, even if thy complain about the choices.0 -
Thanks, Swanny. It's one thing to think Biden was overbearing during the debate and be turned off by his demeanor, but I think it's another to abstract 30 seconds of your candidate being mocked and hope that will help your candidate. As you pointed out, I'm not their target audience, but it's hard for me to imagine thinking that particular commercial hurts Biden more than Ryan.0
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I thought Biden was a *kitten* but I always thought that so this debate didn't surprise me. It doesn't really matter... No one is voting for either one of these clowns. I would be surprised if anyone's vote came down to who was running with Obama or Romney.0
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"Undecided voters" baffle me as well, DoingItNow201. The best thing I've ever read about them was an article in The New Republic from 2004. The author spent seven weeks going door-to-door speaking to voters, hoping to convince "swing voters" to swing to Kerry. He's got some fascinating conclusions, this one the most interesting to me:Undecided voters don't think in terms of issues. Perhaps the greatest myth about undecided voters is that they are undecided because of the "issues." That is, while they might favor Kerry on the economy, they favor Bush on terrorism; or while they are anti-gay marriage, they also support social welfare programs. Occasionally I did encounter undecided voters who were genuinely cross-pressured--a couple who was fiercely pro-life, antiwar, and pro-environment for example--but such cases were exceedingly rare. More often than not, when I asked undecided voters what issues they would pay attention to as they made up their minds I was met with a blank stare, as if I'd just asked them to name their favorite prime number.
The majority of undecided voters I spoke to couldn't name a single issue that was important to them. This was shocking to me. Think about it: The "issue" is the basic unit of political analysis for campaigns, candidates, journalists, and other members of the chattering classes. It's what makes up the subheadings on a candidate's website, it's what sober, serious people wish election outcomes hinged on, it's what every candidate pledges to run his campaign on, and it's what we always complain we don't see enough coverage of.
But the very concept of the issue seemed to be almost completely alien to most of the undecided voters I spoke to. (This was also true of a number of committed voters in both camps--though I'll risk being partisan here and say that Kerry voters, in my experience, were more likely to name specific issues they cared about than Bush supporters.) At first I thought this was a problem of simple semantics--maybe, I thought, "issue" is a term of art that sounds wonky and intimidating, causing voters to react as if they're being quizzed on a topic they haven't studied. So I tried other ways of asking the same question: "Anything of particular concern to you? Are you anxious or worried about anything? Are you excited about what's been happening in the country in the last four years?"
These questions, too, more often than not yielded bewilderment. As far as I could tell, the problem wasn't the word "issue"; it was a fundamental lack of understanding of what constituted the broad category of the "political." The undecideds I spoke to didn't seem to have any intuitive grasp of what kinds of grievances qualify as political grievances. Often, once I would engage undecided voters, they would list concerns, such as the rising cost of health care; but when I would tell them that Kerry had a plan to lower health-care premiums, they would respond in disbelief--not in disbelief that he had a plan, but that the cost of health care was a political issue. It was as if you were telling them that Kerry was promising to extend summer into December.
http://www.chrishayes.org/articles/decision-makers/0 -
I think a lot of people are undecided because the Republican party has been hijacked by the Tea Party, and the Religious Right. I wish they would split off into a third party. I think it would shake off a lot of indecision, since I don't believe most people want to vote in a theocracy, but are left without a viable choice.
And the left has nooooooooooooooooo special interests. Where did you copy and paste that talking point from?0
This discussion has been closed.