You really weren't reading my prior responses. I'm disappointed

You can say "No Exceptions" all day long, but the fact is, rich people buy out politicians all the time and lie about it. Hell, there are some people that don't even bother to hide it well but no one can do anything because it's too easy to say "coincidence". Happens a lot.

So you want the government, which is already fallible and corruptible, to run a lottery system that they claim can't be broken? NO EXCEPTIONS. I don't trust my government with our money, let alone the lives of citizens.

My dearest Kit,

This is purely an intellectual exercise. Simply because there is NO WAY they would allow a draft, mainly because the military would understand quickly that the game is up. Plus, the soccer moms would march on the capital if they thought little Billie really had a chance to get drafted and go die in a hole in the desert in some country less than 2% of Americans could find on a map. Ain't gonna happen...

So we might as well assume that "no exceptions" are possible, as well, when we're playing these fantasy games.

--P

So... Since you're "laughing out loud", I guess you don't think there are domains in which men are discriminated?

The world is not fair, never will be. Overall, men have made out incredibly well. And the numbers back that up. So for white men to start whining about discrimination, well... Sorry, it's just not my style.
--P

It's good for you that it is not your style, but that doesn't make the whole debate topic and direction chosen by the OP invalid - OP, who let's remember opened this thread and chose to look at the problem under this specific angle.
I played the game and replied to OP from this standpoint.

Now, I agree with you (and I would say that probably everyone here agrees as well) that the problem of the discrimination of women is bigger than the problem of the discrimination of men, as numbers back that up.
Similarly though, there are worse problems than the condition of women in Western world societies but that doesn't and shouldn't make the debate about the condition of women invalid either.

As far as whining, I very much doubt you've seen me whining about this issue since I'm perfectly aware that women get the short straw.
But eh, it's a purely intellectual exercise to debate about this topic, isn't it?

Mike, once again you have completely blown off my answers to this and instead focused on a different response that seemed to corroborate with your preconceived ideas.

Nobody is blowing you off. I don't know why you keep on saying that..

Not everyone is going to comment on every single one of your posts. Believe me, if I have something to add or ask you a question, I'll quote you and proceed with my statement.

I thought what smallerbridesmaids was interesting and had a follow up question for her. Pretty cut and dry, no?

Am I allowed to comment and converse with others on here?

It's been 30 minutes and whoever is providing our regularly scheduled program hasn't said anything. Are you going to accuse them of ignoring your posts too? :bigsmile: :laugh:

"Isms" in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an "ism", he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

In my organization, both the men and women have equal pay based on experience and the level are at. I'm sure not all large organizations like this, but in line of work, men and women are paid identical. In fact, our general counsel is entirely female. Most of our management structure is female as well.

In my organization, both the men and women have equal pay based on experience and the level are at. I'm sure not all large organizations like this, but in line of work, men and women are paid identical. In fact, our general counsel is entirely female. Most of our management structure is female as well.

That has always been my work experience.

Sorry..I write too much. Long read.

I admit it. The word “feminist” tends to make me uneasy.

In the Western world, first and second waves of feminism have already achieved a great deal for women in regards to suffrage, official legal rights and autonomy, workplace, sexual and reproductive freedoms. It can be argued that there is still work to be done, but women today have grown up with (and take for granted?) many of these freedoms already. However, just because society has granted women equality on paper, it does not necessarily mean that it isn’t full of hidden mechanisms which hinder women from using their rights in practice. Additionally, it is quite clear that popular culture, language, and social expectations do not always reflect this sense of supposedly already achieved gender equality.

What is interesting about modern day feminism though is that it refuses to be defined in such obvious ways. We can’t all necessarily point to the specific issue that feminists are fighting for in 2012. Perhaps we can all agree that the world is a more complicated place now.. and thus it becomes more difficult to separate gender issues from those of race, sex, class and political issues. This “third-wave” of feminism then seems to be more focused on allowing women to define feminism for themselves by incorporating their own identities into the belief system of what feminism is and what it can become through one's own perspective.

This makes it inheritently subjective, and therefore is a distinct and purposeful move away from a unified force and ideal as per historical feminist movements. Being subjective also means that it is much more likely to be highly personal, contradictory and potentially hypocritical or flawed, as we humans (male and female) all tend to be at times.

Personally, my version of feminism is focused on gender equality..and by that I mean equality for both men and women. I have no desire to think of myself as a victim, bitter and angry and/or feel any need to engage in male-bashing. I recognize that men have had more privileges historically, but by no means has their collective experience been without hardships, responsibility and complexity.

Women are different than men, and I feel it does a disservice to both sexes to think otherwise. What it really boils down to for me is choice. Why would we limit ourselves to such black and white definitions of gender, when it is becoming clear that the world and we who live in it are becoming significantly more complex? Personally, I celebrate both men and women’s multiple and sometimes contradictory identities.

So yes.. this means I expect to have my cake and eat it too. I will continue to expect legal and social equality, fair pay and reproductive choice, while also choosing to date someone a little more dominant, who might enjoy opening a door or paying for a meal if he chooses. This also means for me personally that I fully expect/desire to work full time and if my partner is a better cook or more nurturing, then perhaps he would work less outside of the home and fulfill a more domestic role if desired.

To me.. this choice and ability to live life the way I want to IS the new definition of feminism. But I believe in the same rights for men as well. And I believe this concept is still relevant and important today for both sexes because the word "feminist" is still used as an insult by those who don't really understand it.

Theoretical example here. Should the pay be equal if a man and a woman do the same job, yet the man produces much better results. Take a blue collar job where a man moves a 30 lbs box from point A to point B. During the course of the day, the man moves twice as many boxes as the female. Even though they both give a lot of effort, the man moves twice as many boxes. Should he get twice the pay?

Nowadays:

We dont feel inferior when you open a car door for us, we feel privileged.

We dont feel inferior when you pay for a date, we feel gratitude.

We dont feel inferior when you walk on the traffic side of the street, we feel protected!

We dont feel inferior when you want to take the dominant role in bed, we feel wanted and pleasured!

You no longer TELL us what to do with our lives, you ASK us and DISCUSS with us.

Basically, anything that make us feel inferior - or that is ok for a man to do it, but not a woman - is wrong. Anything else goes!!

I hope that clarifies a few things :flowerforyou:


ETA: Not speaking for all women here, but that's pretty much how *I* see it