anybody else have a problem with the prodigal son?
jerber160
Posts: 2,607 Member
I mean I get it all but the father's last command after, 'put a ring on his finger, kill the calf and let's celebrate' should have been .... ' call his brother in from the fields and let's celebrate my son's return.' I'm sorry, i just find it wrong that the dutiful brother had to stumble across this celebration like someone out for a walk...I try t fit myself in to all the aspects of gospel stories but this one is JUST FLAWED.
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It's a challenge. I think we're not supposed to be envious of God's abundant love and welcome for others. The way it was explained to me was that building the kingdom is the ultimate goal, so of course, we welcome those back into the fold who have fallen away. It's not just about us, and I guess "as we are being dutiful" we also have to have the right intention. My priest said it this way --pray for the desire "to desire a more open and loving heart" which makes us realize more fully that we are supposed to have more spiritual enthusiasm and "fire".0
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As a once prodigal daughter…
The story is about God’s love and about both sons. It shows God’s extravagant love for a child, even a child who had left and disrespected Him for a time. It also shows that God’s extravagant love for one child does not lessen His love for His other children. The celebration of the prodigal’s return took nothing from the other child. The sins of the prodigal son were open and obvious for all to see. So was his repentance. The sins of the other son probably were hidden from everyone except the Father. The other son was busy about his works, but obviously didn’t have a loving heart. Instead of rejoicing at his brother’s return, he was jealous. He didn’t love his brother. He wasn’t happy for his Father’s relief in having his son safely returned. The prodigal son had a long and arduous journey back to the Father (purgatory). The other son’s sins also needed to be addressed. Perhaps this jarring instance is what the Father used to get the son to open up to these hidden sins, so that the Father could heal him of his sins.
The prodigal son’s sins were sins of commission. He lived a sinful life. His brother’s sins were sins of omission. He failed to love as he should. Consider how Jesus reacted to the prostitute’s sin of commission: “Go and sin no more.” Consider what awaits those who refuse mercy to others, by reading Matthew 25: “…And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
It was a mercy that the Father exposed the unmerciful heart of his other son, so that he could repent and become the loving person that God wants him to be.
Hope this helps.0 -
That was great, orapronobis! I love your posts!!
But OP, look at what the father says to the obedient son. He says, "My son, you are here with me always. Everything I have is yours." He wanted to have a party with his friends but he never asked the father. I think this parable is telling us that yes, God want us to be good and do right. But he wants us to live. He wants us to ASK Him for what we want. If we isolate ourselves from others we may become resentful of others when instead we should love each other.0 -
The other son was busy about his works, but obviously didn’t have a loving heart. Instead of rejoicing at his brother’s return, he was jealous. He didn’t love his brother. He wasn’t happy for his Father’s relief in having his son safely returned.
It was a mercy that the Father exposed the unmerciful heart of his other son, so that he could repent and become the loving person that God wants him to be.
Hope this helps.
not even a little bit. the father thought so little of his first son that he not only failed to reward him with a pat on the head now and then, and constantly take him for granted but he didn't bother to share his joy with him at the prodigal's return. the kid had to stumble into the party like some stranger. it's a flawed parable...0 -
The other son was busy about his works, but obviously didn’t have a loving heart. Instead of rejoicing at his brother’s return, he was jealous. He didn’t love his brother. He wasn’t happy for his Father’s relief in having his son safely returned.
It was a mercy that the Father exposed the unmerciful heart of his other son, so that he could repent and become the loving person that God wants him to be.
Hope this helps.
not even a little bit. the father thought so little of his first son that he not only failed to reward him with a pat on the head now and then, and constantly take him for granted but he didn't bother to share his joy with him at the prodigal's return. the kid had to stumble into the party like some stranger. it's a flawed parable...
First, I don’t believe any of the Bible is flawed. If one part were flawed, the entire scripture would be suspect.
We may have to agree to disagree, but let me try another way. You know how some non-Catholic Christians think that Catholics believe we can “work” our way to heaven? Well, we know that we can’t do that. Our works are a manifestation of God’s grace alive and working within us. Do you remember when you posted about shoveling your neighbor’s walk and you were wondering if that “counted?” I forget exactly how you worded it, but something along that line. (Don’t get upset if I don’t remember your sentiment exactly.) Anyway, I mentioned to you then that your motivation was what was important. Was it purely selfish to lose weight? Was it for a thank-you from the neighbor? Was it to give glory to God? It’s the same thing with the first son. He wasn’t doing the “good works” for the glory of God. He was doing it to get stuff.
Look inward to see why this disturbs you so much. Where in your life are you feeling unappreciated, unloved, or unworthy? God is trying to reach you and tell you that you are appreciated, loved, and worthy. The first son spoke his feelings, but then he listened to his Father’s response. The Father’s reassurance of His love for the first son was sufficient for him to feel worthy and loved and to amend his ways and join fully in the life of his family.0 -
we'll definitely disagree. There is nothing in Luke's gospel that indicated the first son 'slaved for his father' to 'get stuff.' The first son's motives are not addressed. AND there is no indication he accepted his father's explanation: that he finally felt worthy and loved, nor that he joined fully in the life of his family. the only thing written is, ' we had to celebrate and rejoice' and the father chose to celebrate without the dutiful son in attendance.0
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“Slaved” is your impression of the first son’s work. Here are the words of the scripture: ‘Look, all these years I served you and not once did I disobey your orders;” There’s nothing to say that the son slaved or even did anything more than was typical for life of the time. Another quote: “Now the older son had been out in the field…” The scripture doesn’t say what he was doing. Was he working in the field? Was he supervising his father’s workers? There is nothing in the scripture to indicate that the first son was treated in anything other than a loving way. His Father says to him: “My son, you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.”There is nothing in Luke's gospel that indicated the first son 'slaved for his father' to 'get stuff.'
Aren’t they? I have a brother. If he had left our family, say had gotten involved with drugs or crime, I would be worried about him every day. If I came home from work one day and heard a party going on and learned it was to celebrate my brother’s return, my first reaction would be relief that he was safe. I would rush in to give him a hug and welcome him home. What was the first son’s reaction: “ He became angry,” Why was he angry? “you never gave me even a young goat to feast on with my friends.” His motivation was jealousy.The first son's motives are not addressed.
The scripture reads: “Let us celebrate..” not that we have to. God doesn’t force anything on us.the only thing written is, ' we had to celebrate and rejoice'and the father chose to celebrate without the dutiful son in attendance.
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This is an assumption. In fact, the scripture tells us just the opposite. When the first son gets angry and refuses to enter: “his father came out and pleaded with him.” The father absolutely wanted the first son to be a part of the celebration. The Father represents God, the celebration represents heaven. God wants ALL of us to join in the eternal, heavenly celebration. Going back to my brother’s fictional homecoming. I know that my mom would have immediately set about preparing a celebration. If she didn’t call me at work to let me know, I would assume it was because she was in a dither, not that she meant to exclude me. Or perhaps she knew I would be home soon anyway and that I would be as happy as she. The one thing that I know I wouldn’t do would be to spoil her joy by complaining that she hadn’t let me throw a party with my friends.
It is possible that the first son rejected his Father’s love. After all, let’s go back to the circumstances in which Jesus told the parable: “Tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to Jesus, but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” In the parable, the Pharisees and scribes are represented by the first son. The tax collectors and sinners are represented by the prodigal son. And perhaps this is everything that we need to know to understand the first son’s motivations. The Pharisees were sanctimonious hypocrites. They loved the law, but not their brothers. So, yes, it’s quite possible that the first son walked away from his Father, just as the Pharisees rejected Jesus. I prefer to hope for salvation for all, both the sinful prodigal son and the jealous unloving first son. If the first son didn’t accept his father’s love, then he lived the rest of his life in anger, jealousy, and self pity. Let’s face it: If our relationship with God is not right, then our relationships with everyone around us are skewed. It is only through a loving relationship with God that we learn to give and receive healthy, happy, unquestioning love in our relationships with our friends and family.AND there is no indication he accepted his father's explanation: that he finally felt worthy and loved, nor that he joined fully in the life of his family.0 -
great point0
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jerber,
it's obvious you like to post things from the pov of an athiest or anticatholic. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and presume that you are interested in this parable.
it's pretty clear that the message Jesus Christ wanted to pass on in the parable is this: If you cooperate with God the Father in the works of life, and remain a loyal member of the family of God, you have nothing to lose. If you leave the family and choose to leave God, yet return to God the Father, you are always welcome back.
Please don't make the simple spiritual teachings of our God into a debate or trivial entertainment to pass time.0 -
jerber- I don't thing you fully understand this parable. The context of the Prodigal Son parable is the complaint of the religious people (Pharisees, especially) about Jesus spending time with the “sinners and outcasts.” They thought Jesus should be spending time with people like them: the really holy ones. Their “holiness” caused them to be condescending and lacking in compassion and concern for the outcasts. In the parable, the “dutiful son” represents the Pharisees. He thinks that the good that he has done merits the attention of the father and that the prodigal son should be shunned. Your reaction to the parable is precisely what Jesus was seeking to challenge since, instead of focusing on the joy of welcoming the wayward son back home, it focuses on the people who think they are better than the outcasts. Considering the context and the purpose of the parable shows that the story is actually a powerful way of making the point Jesus wanted to make. Consequently, I don’t see the parable as flawed but actually profoundly effective.0
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jerber,
it's obvious you like to post things from the pov of an athiest or anticatholic. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and presume that you are interested in this parable.
it's pretty clear that the message Jesus Christ wanted to pass on in the parable is this: If you cooperate with God the Father in the works of life, and remain a loyal member of the family of God, you have nothing to lose. If you leave the family and choose to leave God, yet return to God the Father, you are always welcome back.
Please don't make the simple spiritual teachings of our God into a debate or trivial entertainment to pass time.
fascinating on many counts. First and foremost MFP is a diet/health site. I think that any tool on the site to keep me more engaged in controlling my diet and exercise is fair game, including the social boards so what you see as 'trivial entertainment' I see as a link to keep me focused on keeping diet and exercise in the foreground. The Prodigal discussion is one I've had face to face with friends and thought I'd carry it over to a bigger group.
second, I see myself as a struggling catholic, not anti catholic and it's shocking how I feel driven away by this group: a group I've been a member of since birth.
There really are NO simple answers.... That's why I rely heavily on God's mercy for my life. I can't presume to know what he REALLY wants on social issues, I can only do the best I can.0 -
jerber,
it's obvious you like to post things from the pov of an athiest or anticatholic. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, and presume that you are interested in this parable.
it's pretty clear that the message Jesus Christ wanted to pass on in the parable is this: If you cooperate with God the Father in the works of life, and remain a loyal member of the family of God, you have nothing to lose. If you leave the family and choose to leave God, yet return to God the Father, you are always welcome back.
Please don't make the simple spiritual teachings of our God into a debate or trivial entertainment to pass time.
fascinating on many counts. First and foremost MFP is a diet/health site. I think that any tool on the site to keep me more engaged in controlling my diet and exercise is fair game, including the social boards so what you see as 'trivial entertainment' I see as a link to keep me focused on keeping diet and exercise in the foreground. The Prodigal discussion is one I've had face to face with friends and thought I'd carry it over to a bigger group.
second, I see myself as a struggling catholic, not anti catholic and it's shocking how I feel driven away by this group: a group I've been a member of since birth.
There really are NO simple answers.... That's why I rely heavily on God's mercy for my life. I can't presume to know what he REALLY wants on social issues, I can only do the best I can.
I welcome your questions, Jerber. You were raising good points about the prodigal son, and I think that it is OK to question. It just takes us in deeper, as the answers you got indicate.
A lot of Catholics struggle with their beliefs, especially in a secular age that is hostile to religion. We are all pilgrims in this life, and we all start at different places.0 -
Jerber,
as a Catholic you of all people should be seeking the teachings of a Catholic theologian or spiritual director, not the opinions and most likely flawed pov of fellow Catholics.
Most Catholics are very uneducated in the theology of the scriptures. If you want to understand the scriptures a bit better,
look for teachings by Dr. Brant Pietre or Dr. Scott Hann.
Stop looking for catholics to feed you. That is the job of your bishop.0 -
Jerber,
as a Catholic you of all people should be seeking the teachings of a Catholic theologian or spiritual director, not the opinions and most likely flawed pov of fellow Catholics.
Most Catholics are very uneducated in the theology of the scriptures. If you want to understand the scriptures a bit better,
look for teachings by Dr. Brant Pietre or Dr. Scott Hann.
Stop looking for catholics to feed you. That is the job of your bishop.
How do you know we aren't theologians?
Theologians have to lose weight some time too.
I like Scott Hann, and there are other great teachers out there too.
Read St Paul to the Galatians about how Christians are all to help each other---he is really quite eloquent about it.
As for spiritual guidance, there is an excellent website out there that tells you what it is: http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/
Those were some great suggestions.0 -
Great thoughts, orapronobis. I've had issues with this parable as well, you did a great job explaining.0
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Great thoughts, orapronobis. I've had issues with this parable as well, you did a great job explaining.
Jerber’s questions caused me to think more about that passage. Since I was once a prodigal daughter, my focus when reading that scripture has always been on the wayward son. Jerber’s questions prompted me to go deeper. So, I was a wayward sinner, but now God wanted to remind me not to become complacent, but to do His work in a loving way. So, thank you, Jerber, for posting the questions and thank you, Cherrybomb, for your kind words.0 -
Jerber,
as a Catholic you of all people should be seeking the teachings of a Catholic theologian or spiritual director, not the opinions and most likely flawed pov of fellow Catholics.
Most Catholics are very uneducated in the theology of the scriptures. If you want to understand the scriptures a bit better,
look for teachings by Dr. Brant Pietre or Dr. Scott Hann.
Stop looking for catholics to feed you. That is the job of your bishop.
Anybody else have a problem with this post? Its total lack of charity and harsh judgement still bothers me a week after reading it. Sounds like something a Pharisee would say before Jesus cut him down by a notch or two.0 -
grassette:
This is an adult group for discussion and information sharing.
Do you find such offense with other people's posts or just mine?
Why do you take my response to the OP as a personal attack to your psyche?
Why do you bring up a dead thread a week later to address me publicly over your feelings? Please private message me so I can block you . Then you will no longer be troubled at seeing my posts.0 -
grassette:
This is an adult group for discussion and information sharing.
Do you find such offense with other people's posts or just mine?
Why do you take my response to the OP as a personal attack to your psyche?
Why do you bring up a dead thread a week later to address me publicly over your feelings? Please private message me so I can block you . Then you will no longer be troubled at seeing my posts.
I have to agree with grassette and the other poster who said that you don't know if any of us are theologians or not. What's wrong with reaching out to fellow Catholics to "feed each other"? Jerber obviously takes issue with the Catholic church, but when he brings us questions, we could reply kindly.
Grassette made it sound like she waited a week to bring it up because it was still bothering her. She shouldn't private message you; she should address you here like she did. I believe that was appropriate.0 -
for those of you who are not familiar with the forums,
there is an arrow below the user's profile pic. Click on it, then click on ignore.0 -
Not a personal attack to my psyche, dear. But maybe one on someone else? That is what bothered me. Charity is important in forums, even adult ones--but especially on Christian forums where we should walk the talk.grassette:
This is an adult group for discussion and information sharing.
Do you find such offense with other people's posts or just mine?
Why do you take my response to the OP as a personal attack to your psyche?
Why do you bring up a dead thread a week later to address me publicly over your feelings? Please private message me so I can block you . Then you will no longer be troubled at seeing my posts.
Sorry that you take offense at what I said. None was intended.0
This discussion has been closed.