the real question is should Fallon be allowed to vote?

I believe in equal rights for all

Anyone from any gender should be able to fight in the men and/or womens tournaments

I'm just gonna be honest here. I'm for equality across the board. I do not discriminate on basis of gender or race or sexual orientation.

But it's getting downright impossible to keep up with this *kitten* these days.

What is a male and female? XX or XY chromosome, or a functioning bit between the legs? Whats written on a birth certificate?

What about females with an XY Chromosome?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

i don't see that this is a big deal. she's on the hormone regement, so her hormones will allow her to only train to the levels that a woman can.

honestly, if she's gone through the HELL of sex reassignment, she's not going to screw with her hormones. i'd be more worried about the other women dosing w/ T, than a post-op woman risking all that she's fought for, for so long.

i could see the debate about the intersexed track and field woman at the olympics - b/c she was an XY female and it could be argued that her raised T levels would give an advantage in training.

but going through SRS is NOT easy. it is NOT something that is just handed out. there are men and women who have to fight tooth and nail to be able to get the surgery. first you have to be formally diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder - then you have to go through at LEAST a year of intense therapy as well as drug treatment - to make sure that it's not a Body Dismorphic Disorder - and most decide to take part in body movement therapy where they are learning to walk and talk and present as the gender they are transitioning to as well as introducing hormone therapy, which can wreak havvoc on the body at first, magnify puberty by 30x. THEN you have to find the money. b/c don't think for a minute that insurance wants to pay for it. the insurance companies say that this is cosmetic surgery - even though it IS a medical need. so there is a LOT of money that you need to find. and that's all BEFORE you have to go through many varried and often times PAINFUL surgeries and risk surgical complications every single time.

the process of transitioning takes YEARS and tens of thousands of dollars. this woman is NOT going to mess with her T levels.

i don't see that this is a big deal. she's on the hormone regement, so her hormones will allow her to only train to the levels that a woman can.

honestly, if she's gone through the HELL of sex reassignment, she's not going to screw with her hormones. i'd be more worried about the other women dosing w/ T, than a post-op woman risking all that she's fought for, for so long.

i could see the debate about the intersexed track and field woman at the olympics - b/c she was an XY female and it could be argued that her raised T levels would give an advantage in training.

but going through SRS is NOT easy. it is NOT something that is just handed out. there are men and women who have to fight tooth and nail to be able to get the surgery. first you have to be formally diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder - then you have to go through at LEAST a year of intense therapy as well as drug treatment - to make sure that it's not a Body Dismorphic Disorder - and most decide to take part in body movement therapy where they are learning to walk and talk and present as the gender they are transitioning to as well as introducing hormone therapy, which can wreak havvoc on the body at first, magnify puberty by 30x. THEN you have to find the money. b/c don't think for a minute that insurance wants to pay for it. the insurance companies say that this is cosmetic surgery - even though it IS a medical need. so there is a LOT of money that you need to find. and that's all BEFORE you have to go through many varried and often times PAINFUL surgeries and risk surgical complications every single time.

the process of transitioning takes YEARS and tens of thousands of dollars. this woman is NOT going to mess with her T levels.

So you admit she is doping. DQ

i don't see that this is a big deal. she's on the hormone regement, so her hormones will allow her to only train to the levels that a woman can.

honestly, if she's gone through the HELL of sex reassignment, she's not going to screw with her hormones. i'd be more worried about the other women dosing w/ T, than a post-op woman risking all that she's fought for, for so long.

i could see the debate about the intersexed track and field woman at the olympics - b/c she was an XY female and it could be argued that her raised T levels would give an advantage in training.

but going through SRS is NOT easy. it is NOT something that is just handed out. there are men and women who have to fight tooth and nail to be able to get the surgery. first you have to be formally diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder - then you have to go through at LEAST a year of intense therapy as well as drug treatment - to make sure that it's not a Body Dismorphic Disorder - and most decide to take part in body movement therapy where they are learning to walk and talk and present as the gender they are transitioning to as well as introducing hormone therapy, which can wreak havvoc on the body at first, magnify puberty by 30x. THEN you have to find the money. b/c don't think for a minute that insurance wants to pay for it. the insurance companies say that this is cosmetic surgery - even though it IS a medical need. so there is a LOT of money that you need to find. and that's all BEFORE you have to go through many varried and often times PAINFUL surgeries and risk surgical complications every single time.

the process of transitioning takes YEARS and tens of thousands of dollars. this woman is NOT going to mess with her T levels.

Are we sure that it has no advantage? If I were a fight organizer, I'd want to see hard evidence before I made a decision. Do you have any sources on testosterone levels or athletic performance in men that have undergone hormone therapy?

yes.

I'm just gonna be honest here. I'm for equality across the board. I do not discriminate on basis of gender or race or sexual orientation.

But it's getting downright impossible to keep up with this *kitten* these days.

This story intrigued me because my initial reaction was some version of the "equality for all" sentiment some have posted. Then I read Joe Rogan's publicized response, and while par for Joe Rogan (not necessarily classy), he did make a point that I found hard to ignore: different bone structure.

If you are going to separate men and women in a sport (they do not compete against each other), the reasons used to justify segregated competition should hold here. This is a sport where physiology/body type/bone structure can have a significant role in competitive advantage.

In other words, if an organization says men and women cannot compete against each other because of physical attributes (bone structure, muscle development, etc.) then I can see the argument for not allowing Fallon to fight as a woman.

I too have heard that reasoning. That even though Fox is legally a woman now, she still have the broader build and bigger hands of a male. The surgery did not change her bone structure.

i'm 5'10". i wear a men's 10 shoe. i wear men's large gloves. i have a bone structure that is on the scale as "massive". my rings are all men's sizes. my shoulders are broader than my hips. i am genetically female.

there are a lot of women out there who have large builds. the actual structure of the body is not very different between the sexes. the differences are in the hormones.

the actual structure of the body is not very different between the sexes. the differences are in the hormones.

Not sure I agree with this. I think hormones affect bone structure. What many doctors are saying about this story is that because of the hormone therapy Fallon Fox has undergone for so long, there are changes in her bone structure - that is, any advantage she may have had before are removed because of the hormone therapy.

Assuming that's completely true, I'd change my reasoning but not my stance. From what I can tell, the reason doctors and experts cite for why Fox should not have a physiological advantage is because of 7-8 years of hormone therapy. That would introduce a complex, impossibly difficult interpretation of the rules to define exactly how long hormone therapy would affect the body's structure.

ok - i hear what you're saying. what the doctors are talking about is that estrogen makes women more likely to get ostioperosis and all that fun stuff. that's more of a wear and tear than i was talking about.