Discuss Lumen fidei
grassette
Posts: 976 Member
Here is a link to the new encylical, composed by both Benedict and Francis, entitled ON FAITH.
Why don't we share our impressions of it here. It would be great to discuss it.
First question: What part just stood out for you as being especially important?
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei_en.html
Why don't we share our impressions of it here. It would be great to discuss it.
First question: What part just stood out for you as being especially important?
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20130629_enciclica-lumen-fidei_en.html
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Thanks for the link! I'll read it soon and join the discussion...0
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Here goes: one of the paragraph that really speaks to me:
51. Precisely because it is linked to love (cf. Gal 5:6), the light of faith is concretely placed at the service of justice, law and peace. Faith is born of an encounter with God’s primordial love, wherein the meaning and goodness of our life become evident; our life is illumined to the extent that it enters into the space opened by that love, to the extent that it becomes, in other words, a path and praxis leading to the fullness of love. The light of faith is capable of enhancing the richness of human relations, their ability to endure, to be trustworthy, to enrich our life together. Faith does not draw us away from the world or prove irrelevant to the concrete concerns of the men and women of our time. Without a love which is trustworthy, nothing could truly keep men and women united. Human unity would be conceivable only on the basis of utility, on a calculus of conflicting interests or on fear, but not on the goodness of living together, not on the joy which the mere presence of others can give. Faith makes us appreciate the architecture of human relationships because it grasps their ultimate foundation and definitive destiny in God, in his love, and thus sheds light on the art of building; as such it becomes a service to the common good. Faith is truly a good for everyone; it is a common good. Its light does not simply brighten the interior of the Church, nor does it serve solely to build an eternal city in the hereafter; it helps us build our societies in such a way that they can journey towards a future of hope. The Letter to the Hebrews offers an example in this regard when it names, among the men and women of faith, Samuel and David, whose faith enabled them to "administer justice" (Heb 11:33). This expression refers to their justice in governance, to that wisdom which brings peace to the people (cf. 1 Sam 12:3-5; 2 Sam 8:15). The hands of faith are raised up to heaven, even as they go about building in charity a city based on relationships in which the love of God is laid as a foundation.0 -
Encyclicals are too long for me to do on my own...I'm just not smart enough....but I'll take a small stab at it...
"Our culture has lost its sense of God’s tangible presence and activity in our world. We think that God is to be found in the beyond, on another level of reality, far removed from our everyday relationships. But if this were the case, if God could not act in the world, his love would not be truly powerful, truly real, and thus not even true, a love capable of delivering the bliss that it promises. It would make no difference at all whether we believed in him or not. Christians, on the contrary, profess their faith in God’s tangible and powerful love which really does act in history and determines its final destiny: a love that can be encountered, a love fully revealed in Christ’s passion, death and resurrection."
in my small mind, I can't help but think of some friends, a gay couple who adopted refugee twin babies at birth. Could anything be more selfless than to raise these waifs.... to give them a chance at a decent life? So I don't know if we've lost a sense of God's presence or if we refuse to acknowledge it everywhere.0 -
I'm still reading, and also pulling things out that speak to me. Here's one...
"Idols exist, we begin to see, as a pretext for setting ourselves at the centre of reality and worshiping the work of our own hands. Once man has lost the fundamental orientation which unifies his existence, he breaks down into the multiplicity of his desires; in refusing to await the time of promise, his life-story disintegrates into a myriad of unconnected instants. Idolatry, then, is always polytheism, an aimless passing from one lord to another. Idolatry does not offer a journey but rather a plethora of paths leading nowhere and forming a vast labyrinth. Those who choose not to put their trust in God must hear the din of countless idols crying out: "Put your trust in me!"
Wow! I wonder if Pope Francis somehow looked back over my life when he wrote that! I was gone for the Church for 15+ years and during that time, yes, I was wandering all over the place. I think a lot of people are doing that today. It's like that quote, I don't know it exactly, but it says if you don't believe in God, you won't then believe in nothing. You'll believe in anything. And according to Pope Francis, you'll worship anything as well.0 -
Another one that just leaps out at me:
57. Nor does the light of faith make us forget the sufferings of this world. How many men and women of faith have found mediators of light in those who suffer! So it was with Saint Francis of Assisi and the leper, or with Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta and her poor. They understood the mystery at work in them. In drawing near to the suffering, they were certainly not able to eliminate all their pain or to explain every evil. Faith is not a light which scatters all our darkness, but a lamp which guides our steps in the night and suffices for the journey. To those who suffer, God does not provide arguments which explain everything; rather, his response is that of an accompanying presence, a history of goodness which touches every story of suffering and opens up a ray of light. In Christ, God himself wishes to share this path with us and to offer us his gaze so that we might see the light within it. Christ is the one who, having endured suffering, is "the pioneer and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2).
Suffering reminds us that faith’s service to the common good is always one of hope — a hope which looks ever ahead in the knowledge that only from God, from the future which comes from the risen Jesus, can our society find solid and lasting foundations. In this sense faith is linked to hope, for even if our dwelling place here below is wasting away, we have an eternal dwelling place which God has already prepared in Christ, in his body (cf. 2 Cor 4:16-5:5). The dynamic of faith, hope and charity (cf. 1 Th 1:3; 1 Cor 13:13) thus leads us to embrace the concerns of all men and women on our journey towards that city "whose architect and builder is God" (Heb 11:10), for "hope does not disappoint" (Rom 5:5).
In union with faith and charity, hope propels us towards a sure future, set against a different horizon with regard to the illusory enticements of the idols of this world yet granting new momentum and strength to our daily lives. Let us refuse to be robbed of hope, or to allow our hope to be dimmed by facile answers and solutions which block our progress, "fragmenting" time and changing it into space. Time is always much greater than space. Space hardens processes, whereas time propels towards the future and encourages us to go forward in hope.0 -
Encyclicals are too long for me to do on my own...I'm just not smart enough....but I'll take a small stab at it...
"Our culture has lost its sense of God’s tangible presence and activity in our world. We think that God is to be found in the beyond, on another level of reality, far removed from our everyday relationships. But if this were the case, if God could not act in the world, his love would not be truly powerful, truly real, and thus not even true, a love capable of delivering the bliss that it promises. It would make no difference at all whether we believed in him or not. Christians, on the contrary, profess their faith in God’s tangible and powerful love which really does act in history and determines its final destiny: a love that can be encountered, a love fully revealed in Christ’s passion, death and resurrection."
in my small mind, I can't help but think of some friends, a gay couple who adopted refugee twin babies at birth. Could anything be more selfless than to raise these waifs.... to give them a chance at a decent life? So I don't know if we've lost a sense of God's presence or if we refuse to acknowledge it everywhere.
Then what do you think of this one, Jerber?
52. In Abraham’s journey towards the future city, the Letter to the Hebrews mentions the blessing which was passed on from fathers to sons (cf. Heb 11:20-21). The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage. This union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of God’s own love, and of the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh (cf. Gen 2:24) and are enabled to give birth to a new life, a manifestation of the Creator’s goodness, wisdom and loving plan. Grounded in this love, a man and a woman can promise each other mutual love in a gesture which engages their entire lives and mirrors many features of faith. Promising love for ever is possible when we perceive a plan bigger than our own ideas and undertakings, a plan which sustains us and enables us to surrender our future entirely to the one we love. Faith also helps us to grasp in all its depth and richness the begetting of children, as a sign of the love of the Creator who entrusts us with the mystery of a new person. So it was that Sarah, by faith, became a mother, for she trusted in God’s fidelity to his promise (cf. Heb 11:11).
While I would not want to comment on your friends, gay men cannot become one flesh and engender life. What I find wrong are gay men who go to India, and pay a poverty-stricken woman to bear a child and have no contact with it the rest of her life. This flies against God's plan, in that the child is consciously deprived of a relationship with his or her mother, his or her sibblings, and from the mother's entire familiy lineage. This child is rootless, and this goes both against human anthropology and against God's plan as it inscribed in our gendered reality.0 -
Encyclicals are too long for me to do on my own...I'm just not smart enough....but I'll take a small stab at it...
"Our culture has lost its sense of God’s tangible presence and activity in our world. We think that God is to be found in the beyond, on another level of reality, far removed from our everyday relationships. But if this were the case, if God could not act in the world, his love would not be truly powerful, truly real, and thus not even true, a love capable of delivering the bliss that it promises. It would make no difference at all whether we believed in him or not. Christians, on the contrary, profess their faith in God’s tangible and powerful love which really does act in history and determines its final destiny: a love that can be encountered, a love fully revealed in Christ’s passion, death and resurrection."
in my small mind, I can't help but think of some friends, a gay couple who adopted refugee twin babies at birth. Could anything be more selfless than to raise these waifs.... to give them a chance at a decent life? So I don't know if we've lost a sense of God's presence or if we refuse to acknowledge it everywhere.
Then what do you think of this one, Jerber?
52. In Abraham’s journey towards the future city, the Letter to the Hebrews mentions the blessing which was passed on from fathers to sons (cf. Heb 11:20-21). The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage. This union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of God’s own love, and of the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh (cf. Gen 2:24) and are enabled to give birth to a new life, a manifestation of the Creator’s goodness, wisdom and loving plan. Grounded in this love, a man and a woman can promise each other mutual love in a gesture which engages their entire lives and mirrors many features of faith. Promising love for ever is possible when we perceive a plan bigger than our own ideas and undertakings, a plan which sustains us and enables us to surrender our future entirely to the one we love. Faith also helps us to grasp in all its depth and richness the begetting of children, as a sign of the love of the Creator who entrusts us with the mystery of a new person. So it was that Sarah, by faith, became a mother, for she trusted in God’s fidelity to his promise (cf. Heb 11:11).
While I would not want to comment on your friends, gay men cannot become one flesh and engender life. What I find wrong are gay men who go to India, and pay a poverty-stricken woman to bear a child and have no contact with it the rest of her life. This flies against God's plan, in that the child is consciously deprived of a relationship with his or her mother, his or her sibblings, and from the mother's entire familiy lineage. This child is rootless, and this goes both against human anthropology and against God's plan as it inscribed in our gendered reality.0 -
Encyclicals are too long for me to do on my own...I'm just not smart enough....but I'll take a small stab at it...
"Our culture has lost its sense of God’s tangible presence and activity in our world. We think that God is to be found in the beyond, on another level of reality, far removed from our everyday relationships. But if this were the case, if God could not act in the world, his love would not be truly powerful, truly real, and thus not even true, a love capable of delivering the bliss that it promises. It would make no difference at all whether we believed in him or not. Christians, on the contrary, profess their faith in God’s tangible and powerful love which really does act in history and determines its final destiny: a love that can be encountered, a love fully revealed in Christ’s passion, death and resurrection."
in my small mind, I can't help but think of some friends, a gay couple who adopted refugee twin babies at birth. Could anything be more selfless than to raise these waifs.... to give them a chance at a decent life? So I don't know if we've lost a sense of God's presence or if we refuse to acknowledge it everywhere.
Then what do you think of this one, Jerber?
52. In Abraham’s journey towards the future city, the Letter to the Hebrews mentions the blessing which was passed on from fathers to sons (cf. Heb 11:20-21). The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage. This union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of God’s own love, and of the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh (cf. Gen 2:24) and are enabled to give birth to a new life, a manifestation of the Creator’s goodness, wisdom and loving plan. Grounded in this love, a man and a woman can promise each other mutual love in a gesture which engages their entire lives and mirrors many features of faith. Promising love for ever is possible when we perceive a plan bigger than our own ideas and undertakings, a plan which sustains us and enables us to surrender our future entirely to the one we love. Faith also helps us to grasp in all its depth and richness the begetting of children, as a sign of the love of the Creator who entrusts us with the mystery of a new person. So it was that Sarah, by faith, became a mother, for she trusted in God’s fidelity to his promise (cf. Heb 11:11).
While I would not want to comment on your friends, gay men cannot become one flesh and engender life. What I find wrong are gay men who go to India, and pay a poverty-stricken woman to bear a child and have no contact with it the rest of her life. This flies against God's plan, in that the child is consciously deprived of a relationship with his or her mother, his or her sibblings, and from the mother's entire familiy lineage. This child is rootless, and this goes both against human anthropology and against God's plan as it inscribed in our gendered reality.
I agree about not judging and God's mercy, but I can't help but notice that where gay marriage has been accepted, the Church has had to withdraw from finding families for orphans because gays refuse to allow an organization that favors placing children with an adoptive mother and father to even exist.
There have been quite a few articles published on the womb farms of India by the New York Times and other publications. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/asia/10surrogate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Here is one by the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/05/india-surrogates-impoverished-die
and one from Time magazine: http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/why-people-are-angry-about-indias-new-surrogacy-laws/0 -
I agree about not judging and God's mercy, but I can't help but notice that where gay marriage has been accepted, the Church has had to withdraw from finding families for orphans because gays refuse to allow an organization that favors placing children with an adoptive mother and father to even exist.
There have been quite a few articles published on the womb farms of India by the New York Times and other publications. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/asia/10surrogate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Here is one by the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/05/india-surrogates-impoverished-die
and one from Time magazine: http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/why-people-are-angry-about-indias-new-surrogacy-laws/
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WOMB FARMS is a horrible term. OYE. and a horrible concept. I looked up the church's stand on surrogacy and I checked out a site or two about adoption. Lifted this: "This means that if the federal court legalizes gay marriage, Catholic adoption agencies are not going to be allowed to discriminate and will need to make a choice about whether to close their doors or adopt to homosexual couples. " A choice hopefully made with children's best interest in mind.0 -
I agree about not judging and God's mercy, but I can't help but notice that where gay marriage has been accepted, the Church has had to withdraw from finding families for orphans because gays refuse to allow an organization that favors placing children with an adoptive mother and father to even exist.
There have been quite a few articles published on the womb farms of India by the New York Times and other publications. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/asia/10surrogate.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Here is one by the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/05/india-surrogates-impoverished-die
and one from Time magazine: http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/why-people-are-angry-about-indias-new-surrogacy-laws/
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Jerber said:
WOMB FARMS is a horrible term. OYE. and a horrible concept. I looked up the church's stand on surrogacy and I checked out a site or two about adoption. Lifted this: "This means that if the federal court legalizes gay marriage, Catholic adoption agencies are not going to be allowed to discriminate and will need to make a choice about whether to close their doors or adopt to homosexual couples. " A choice hopefully made with children's best interest in mind.
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All of the family life studies show that children thrive best in a home made up of their biological mother and father in a stable marriage. Unfortunately, this "hetero-normativity" is objectionable to gay activists who seek to wipe it out and replace that reality with one where gender floats, and one is led to a smorgasborg of sexual practices.
I am a university student (despite my age) and find that what is promulgated in the name of the sexual revolution these days to be totally scary.
I believe that God created us man and woman, and that this basic reality biologically determines who we are. If a man wishes he were a woman just to dress up like Barbie, then there are far too many constraints on men's fashion, which has been far too long exiled from lace, ribbons, satin, feathers and heels. But unless that man menstruates, no amount of wishing will make him a girl.
I also feel that environmental pollution is screwing up the endoctrinal systems of men. In other words, there is no gay gene. There does not have to be when the male of many species are born with eggs in their testicles. When this is happening to fish and frogs, we would have to be blind to think that human males are not being impacted. Human sperm counts are very low. There are far too many estrogen and estrogen mimics in the water supply to think that the gay revolution is not a cultural side effect of exposure to endocrine-system bending.pharmaceuticals.
I am deviating from Lumen Fidei more than a bit, but I think that it speaks the truth in pointing out that all human beings are born of a father and a mother, and that together they make one flesh capable of engendering new life, and a future for humanity.0 -
it's difficult for a popes to write on faith, because inevitably the Christian people would prefer to argue about ethics and all of the other secondary consequences of faith0
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it's difficult for a popes to write on faith, because inevitably the Christian people would prefer to argue about ethics and all of the other secondary consequences of faith0
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I am deviating from Lumen Fidei more than a bit, but I think that it speaks the truth in pointing out that all human beings are born of a father and a mother, and that together they make one flesh capable of engendering new life, and a future for humanity.
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I too think it speaks 'the truth' but that truth aside, 2 parent man/woman stable homes are NOT the reality.
I think this was from #35-to support my thought that it's a blurry line of what is good and pleasing to God. "Any-one who sets off on the path of doing good to others is already drawing near to God, is already sustained by his help, for it is characteristic of the divine light to brighten our eyes whenever we walk towards the fullness of love."
I'll keep plowing on..0 -
#4 proposes that faith is a light "capable of illuminating every aspect of human existence," which is "born of an encounter with the living God who calls us and reveals his love, a love which precedes us and upon which we can lean for security and for building our lives."
Does faith have this power to illuminate 'every aspect' of life, for us? When and where did we encounter the living God as one who reveals his love as the source of all stability?0 -
as an aside, the more reading I do it seems this encyclical was mostly penned by Benedict and 'tweaked' a bit by Francis, no?0
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as an aside, the more reading I do it seems this encyclical was mostly penned by Benedict and 'tweaked' a bit by Francis, no?
Both had a hand in it. Benedict had been preparing it before he resigned.0 -
and as another aside,, thank you for posting this... checking in is helping me remember to avoid the refrigerator AND be more focused.0
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#4 proposes that faith is a light "capable of illuminating every aspect of human existence," which is "born of an encounter with the living God who calls us and reveals his love, a love which precedes us and upon which we can lean for security and for building our lives."
Does faith have this power to illuminate 'every aspect' of life, for us? When and where did we encounter the living God as one who reveals his love as the source of all stability?
Good questions. What do you think?0 -
Grassette— in reading what Pope Francis has written, each of us must look to see if what he describes is something that happens in our life, here and now, or just something that we— more or less— agree with.
For me, then, does faith have the power to illuminate 'ever aspect' of life? Can it illuminate the boring hours at work as well as the excitement of working on new projects or being the one to solve a particular problem, the struggling with meeting the mortgage every month, missing out on vacation with friends, the difficulties of our children, the illnesses and sufferings of friends, realizing at the last minute that we could see Independence Day fireworks just by walking down the block (haven't figured this out this in 9 years, LOL). I can't reconcile all these contradictions myself and I have no reassurance that things will all work out the way I would plan them, but yes, I repeatedly find myself revived by a secret thrill that Christ has risen from death, and that the daily tedium, needs, and desires have their answer in his face.
How did it happen for me? In 2006 I was on vacation in Wisconsin, reading a book called The Friendship of Christ by RH Benson. I agreed with all it said, but I wanted to know why it wasn't happening in my life. When I asked a friend about this, he told me that in his experience that was because he wasn't surrendering himself to Christ, but holding something back. I joined in singing some songs with others at the campfire (I remember Ghost Riders in the Sky in particular), and that was the beginning for me, of following.0 -
Grassette— in reading what Pope Francis has written, each of us must look to see if what he describes is something that happens in our life, here and now, or just something that we— more or less— agree with.
For me, then, does faith have the power to illuminate 'ever aspect' of life? Can it illuminate the boring hours at work as well as the excitement of working on new projects or being the one to solve a particular problem, the struggling with meeting the mortgage every month, missing out on vacation with friends, the difficulties of our children, the illnesses and sufferings of friends, realizing at the last minute that we could see Independence Day fireworks just by walking down the block (haven't figured this out this in 9 years, LOL). I can't reconcile all these contradictions myself and I have no reassurance that things will all work out the way I would plan them, but yes, I repeatedly find myself revived by a secret thrill that Christ has risen from death, and that the daily tedium, needs, and desires have their answer in his face.
How did it happen for me? In 2006 I was on vacation in Wisconsin, reading a book called The Friendship of Christ by RH Benson. I agreed with all it said, but I wanted to know why it wasn't happening in my life. When I asked a friend about this, he told me that in his experience that was because he wasn't surrendering himself to Christ, but holding something back. I joined in singing some songs with others at the campfire (I remember Ghost Riders in the Sky in particular), and that was the beginning for me, of following.
Beautiful testimony!0 -
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