I've always more or less defended the point of view that cheating isn't just about the "physical act".

These I'm not sure about though:

Talking about your marriage with him/her
Talking about your marriage with someone of the opposite sex is a breach of trust and disrespectful.

Poor women then. Having to talk about their marriage problems with other women is bound to increase your blood pressure.

Your spouse doesn’t like it, or your good friend tells you it’s not right.
If your spouse has told you they don’t like it and they do it anyway, it’s an affair. It’s not right to be more concerned about connecting with this person than with your spouse’s feelings.

Or your spouse tend to go over the top and needs to chill out.
Some people really are jealous and they should learn to trust you first (that said you shouldn't be feeding the mistrust either).

And even if your spouse is being a pain in the butt, there are healthier ways to increase your self-esteem than breaching your vows.

I think for me, being involved outside of the relationship (and I don't necessarily mean sexually, but just talking, meeting people, etc.) would be more an escape from a "tired" relationship rather than just for increasing my self-esteem.
Actually it might revitalize me instead of drawing me outside.

Also most people want to know that they are still "attractive", especially when your life is unfulfilling (e.g. boring job, etc.). They will look for that "respect" and "admiration" elsewhere, especially if they don't get it withing the confines of the relationship.

The way I feel personally is that I will always need to "feed" mentally and emotionally on more than one person (of the opposite sex).

I absolutely buy the secrecy element of this blog post, but a lot of the rest seems rather absurd to me. I frequently email friends of the opposite gender multiple times in a day - we're having a conversation, or making plans, and that's a normal part of communication, not an 'affair'.

Talking about your marriage with someone of the opposite sex is a breach of trust and disrespectful.

Erm... no. Talking about the intimate details of your personal life with another person, regardless of their gender, is a breach of trust and disrespectful. Talking about your marriage/relationship, in general - not specific details of your sex life! - with a friend (again regardless of gender) is not necessarily so. In fact, it can be a positive asset in a relationship. How many of us have, at one time or other, vented to a friend about something in a relationship, romantic or otherwise, that really bugs us, and been offered an alternative perspective that has made us look at that thing in a new light, with more positivity/tolerance/understanding? I'd be willing to bet virtually everyone here has done that at some time.

As for the 'personal needs' business...since when was it a bad thing to need to have a range of friends as well as an intimate partner? Friends are platonic by definition (unless we're going into 'friends with benefits' territory, which really ought to be called something else anyway, for accuracy's sake), so why on earth does it matter if they happen to be of the same gender as your romantic partner?

If your friends are not actually friends, but rather 'someone I'd quite like to have sex with', and you're in a relationship, then you have a problem - not an insuperable problem, but you will have to find a way of dealing with that, if you're to remain faithful to your spouse/partner. If, on the other hand, your friends are people (people, not 'men' or 'women') whose company you enjoy, and who enhance your pleasure in life, in a purely platonic way, as well as improving your (and in all likelihood, your partner's) social circle, then no problem exists, nor should anyone be made to feel that it does. Having a platonic friend, even a close one, is NOT the same as having an affair. An affair requires sexual content - physical or otherwise - or we'd be calling every bromance, or BFF relationship, adultery, by this Dr Laura's standards.

I, for one, really resent the implication that all male-female relationships are sexual, and therefore suspect, in nature. They aren't. You may as well say that every gay man or lesbian woman is sexually attracted to all members of their own gender. I'm assured by my many homosexual friends of both genders that they're not.

We all have factors, as discussed ad infintum on this board, that attract or put us off the individual members of the wider group to whom we are essentially attracted. My best friend/substitute brother is, objectively, gorgeous - a prize catch by many people's standards - tall, successful, good looking, charming and intelligent. I love him to bits, can, and often do, have two-hour conversations with him by phone or in person, frequently have 15+ email chains through the day, can wear any height heel I can walk in and still feel short by his side... and have absolutely no physical attraction to him at all*. In fact, the thought of there being anything 'more' between us is actually somewhat nauseating to me. He's too skinny for my taste, his politics and social background are very different from mine, he's neurotic about what he eats/borderline hypochondriac, uses alternative medicine widely, and his hair is too long, plus he has brown eyes, and I prefer light-eyed men! Yet, I love my friend. I love his hugs, the fact he knows more about my current medical status than my mother does and researches/checks to make sure I'm not doing things that would cut off my future options, the fact he sends brilliantly clever and very silly cards for my birthday, but is a total Scrooge about Christmas... I adore him, but I do not EVER want to sleep with him, and the feeling is demonstrably mutual - I lived with him for an entire summer between my Bachelors' and Masters' degrees, we were both single, and though we frequently shared a sofa/saw each other in a towel post-shower etc there was never even a frisson of awkwardness or 'awareness'. I'm not his 'type' any more than he's mine, but I make an excellent wingwoman on occasion, translator for the female-specific vagaries of the girls he does go for, and a really good FRIEND.

I don't see why this distinction seems to be so difficult for so many people to understand. I have several close friendships, some with males, some with females - none of these friendships are in any way a 'threat' to my, or their, romantic or sexual relationships. I'm sorry this is so long, but this something I feel passionate about. Apart from the 'icky' years of about 9-14, I have always had many male friends, and they have enriched my life immeasurably, in so many ways. I hope I have had the same effect on their lives. Someone saying or inferring that this is wrong makes me both very sad, and very angry, as well as, if I'm honest, inducing rather a lot of pity for those whose fear of someone overstepping is so great that they cut themselves off from the possibility of life-enhancing friendship with half the human race.

*ETA - all of this applies to my closest female friend, too (well, except the heels - she's 5'2"!). She's in a relationship...does doing these things mean she's having an 'affair' with me?!

I don't see why this distinction seems to be so difficult for so many people to understand. I have several close friendships, some with males, some with females - none of these friendships are in any way a 'threat' to my, or their, romantic or sexual relationships. I'm sorry this is so long, but this something I feel passionate about.

It gets easier to understand after 5+ years of an average marriage.
Not that these old friendships will ever be a threat at this stage, the new ones however will make the grass seem way greener out there...

In short - I draw the line at having sex with my married/attached male friends! Everything else is arbitrary.

In long - what Castadiva said! :flowerforyou:

I, for one, really resent the implication that all male-female relationships are sexual, and therefore suspect, in nature.

I, for one, really resent the fact that people go off on this topic without actually reading what I wrote. Instead, they fill in the blanks with stuff they think I wrote/feel/think.

Dr. Laura was specifically talking about how to tell when a platonic male/female relationship has taken a turn into cheater territory.

Janie, your OP, within the first few paragraphs, said this:

Affairs are often about playing out sexual fantasies

It then went on to talk in very definite terms about how normal actions such as emailing a lot, talking to a friend about a relationship or doing something your spouse dislikes automatically constitute an 'affair'. It's not difficult to deduce that this writer - not you - believes that all male-female interaction is fraught with the potential and even likelihood of sexual incontinence and/or infidelity. It's an assumption that, in my experience, is incorrect, and even quite offensive, denying both my, and my friends', ability to control our own actions, as well as our ability to maintain relationships that are non-sexual.

I also found this paragraph in your later post interesting:

I also disagree that most people inherently know right from wrong when it comes to overstepping boundaries. I formed this opinion from reading the "Surviving an Affair" forum where story after story is told of people who fell into affairs they never intended to happen. They got sucked in emotionally because they didn't realize they were becoming too emotionally attached.

You say that you have formed your opinion about people's ability to tell right from wrong from one side of the story - and a biased perspective, at that. It's inevitable that people writing in a forum entitled 'Surviving an Affair' are likely to espouse the idea that they or their spouse 'fell' uncontrollably into an affair - it's an absolutely standard, and probably necessary, self-delusion, and an understandable human instinct, to deny agency and responsibility in order to forgive or seek pardon ("I/they couldn't help it, so it's not really my/their fault and I/they am/are a good person who deserves forgiveness" or "His/Her 'friend' seduced him/her, and he/she couldn't resist - it's not his/her fault"). One could draw an easy parallel with many defense pleas in criminal court, where someone's past history is used to excuse present behaviour.

It's easy to understand why people in that mindset might think that they therefore need stricter, explicit 'rules' to prevent any reoccurrence in their own sphere, or the wider community, and that if they, or their loved one, were unable to control their actions, others must be similarly 'at risk'. Some undoubtedly are - certainly there are people who have real affairs, which are often heartbreaking and hugely destructive to all concerned, and some of these might benefit from such a rigid code - but I think you'll find, as you have here, that the majority of the adult world feels entirely able to self-police in this arena. We know where we draw lines, we trust ourselves and others to recognise them, and if they are breached, we understand that it is our responsibility to take whatever action is needed so that we can live with ourselves and our particular moral code, whatever that means to us individually and in the specific circumstance.

I always read what you post with interest, though I do not always agree. Particularly when you post source material, unless otherwise stated, my disagreement, or resentment in this case, is aimed at the author of the material and what they represent, not you personally.

I also disagree that most people inherently know right from wrong when it comes to overstepping boundaries. I formed this opinion from reading the "Surviving an Affair" forum where story after story is told of people who fell into affairs they never intended to happen. They got sucked in emotionally because they didn't realize they were becoming too emotionally attached.

You say that you have formed your opinion about people's ability to tell right from wrong from one side of the story - and a biased perspective, at that. It's inevitable that people writing in a forum entitled 'Surviving an Affair' are likely to espouse the idea that they or their spouse 'fell' uncontrollably into an affair - it's an absolutely standard, and probably necessary, self-delusion, and an understandable human instinct, to deny agency and responsibility in order to forgive or seek pardon ("I/they couldn't help it, so it's not really my/their fault and I/they am/are a good person who deserves forgiveness" or "His/Her 'friend' seduced him/her, and he/she couldn't resist - it's not his/her fault").

I don't know if I agree with this bit...
Emotions are hard to control so I can see why people can become emotionally attached without a malign intention from the start - which is what I understand when we say people fell "uncontrollably" into the affair.

Especially if the partner/spouse was looking for comfort at a difficult time during their relationship/marriage. You can argue that it was predictable all you want, people will act on the basis that the male-female relationships aren't all "sexual" in nature as well.

But then this relationship could develop into something more sexual after a while (especially if our test subject is one of these people that is attracted in "brains" and not just physical features, then for them this is how things happen anyway - unless they are absolutely disgusted by the physical features of our bait).
Then one day you wake up and realise that you have (non physically) cheated.

I see where you're coming from. I guess the distinction for me is that I don't see emotional closeness, or even finding someone other than one's partner attractive, as 'cheating', even if there is a sexual element to the emotion, provided that element is not acted upon in any way/shape/form (I would count explicit, outright sexually-orientated flirting that leads to mental arousal as very close to the line, but not necessarily over it, and the same leading to significant physical arousal as a definite issue). Is it 'cheating' to say "Bradley Cooper/Jessica Alba/insert-name-as-appropriate" is sexually attractive? Of course not. Is it 'cheating' to feel something for someone other than one's partner, whether that's affection or sexual attraction? I don't believe so, provided you don't act on that in a way that betrays your partner's presumed trust*, and I think most adults know what that entails.

It seems that the way you see things is in direct opposition with the postulate used as a basis for the article/quote then (contained in the first few lines), which would maybe explain why you see things as more clear cut:
In the day, it was very clear what constituted cheating. You had sex with somebody while you were married or engaged, and you also had to make great efforts to have an affair. But with all the new means by which people can connect today, cheating has become a whole new monster. There’s texting, Skyping and emailing. There are websites that cater to people who wish to fool around on their spouses. And along with these advances in technology, what counts as “cheating” seems to have become less cut and dry (i.e. it’s no longer just the physical act of having sex with someone else).


However, a point which I have sort of made in my previous answer (and which I feel is important):

- There is a difference between "sexual attraction" and "physical attraction" - obvious.
- For many people, being attracted to someone "mentally", "emotionally" is a prerequisite to "sexual attraction" (physical and non physical) and can arguably even overcome "physical NON-attraction" (I wouldn't use "repulsion") - so if you are not necessarily "sexually-physically" attracted to a person, I believe you can still become "sexually-emotionally" attracted to that person given sufficient time to know the emotional side of the person.
- "sexual-emotional" attraction will take some time to form - so it will be difficult to see it coming clearly. Also as a general rule, relationships and bonds grow stronger with time (as you invest more and more in the person).

So, what I imply is that by not being "physically-sexually" attracted to someone initially, a person might feel protected.
I would guess however that if one continues to see/talk to a person freely, then they probably enjoy the company of that person, conversations, emotional/intellectual side (to an extent at least).
Why would they stop seeing each other then? Will it be clear initially that the pleasure you have in spending time with a person will transform into "sexual attraction" later? ("It's just a friend")
So this seemingly innocent behaviour can lead to "emotional attraction", which can then lead to "sexual attraction".

And, let's be realistic, since it is very likely that a partner in a relationship cannot cover 100% of one's emotional needs, people WILL BE attracted to some of the "emotional aspects" of other people outside of their relationship, to fill a void that they cannot fill within the confines of their relationship.

The last point is:
Once someone realises one day that they have developed a strong emotional connection with another person outside of their relationship and their relationship starts to fumble, it's often too late and this is at this point that you decide to leave or cheat.


Personally, though, I don't feel the solution is as suggested in the original post/article to imprison the person in the relationship with you (this is how some of the advice felt to me), because your partner is bound to feel frustrated and - more importantly - you can be almost 100% certain that some day your partner will be in a situation where they are out of your watch and they will be offered a choice that could compromise your relationship.
This is when you want them to make the right choice not because of your control, but because of their own desire to be with you.

This is when you want them to make the right choice not because of your control, but because of their own desire to be with you.

Boom! This exactly. Isn't is so much better if your spouse/partner is faithful not because he/she has no choice, but because he/she sees the options, and actively decides not to act on their attractions because he/she wants to be faithful to you? For brevity's sake, and because I'm about to log off at work, I'll just say that I see your points (and I'm not sure I'm in absolute opposition to the premise of the article as a whole, or that I necessarily see 'cheating' as completely cut-and-dried), but I do maintain that one can have all of those emotional experiences, and still choose not to act on them in a way that constitutes 'cheating'. As I've said before, I don't think the feelings themselves are an act of infidelity, and I do believe, from my own experience, that we are essentially in control of what we do with our feelings.

Have a good weekend, everyone!:flowerforyou:

I've never really understood the point of this theme, which seems to reappear regularly. Is it to win a bar bet? "I told you it was cheating!" Is it to arm yourself with ammunition so you can convince your partner to stop having lunch with his female co-workers?

I disagree with a lot of what "Dr Laura" writes. But so what? That's only relevant if the woman I love, the woman with whom I want to spend the rest of my life, wholeheartedly agrees with Dr Laura. Then I have a problem, and we need to talk it out. But I seriously doubt it would happen, because I'd definitely find it difficult to fall in love with anyone who views a deleted email as the equivalent of marathon sex at the Motel 6.

But no matter. To each his own. Talk it out with your partner, find your own boundaries, compromise a bit if you can, get the hell out of there if you can't. After hundreds of posts here on this very theme, clearly we can agree that there is no correct answer as to what constitutes "cheating".

--P

As for the comment on my homepage (which I'll paste below) there's nothing un-Christian about telling the truth. The truth shall set you free. And if more people would pay attention to the truth rather than pine away for people who will never love them or get angry (instead of getting fit) when their fitter friends get more attention from the opposite sex, or keep thinking s/he loves them when s/he only calls at 2am for a booty call, or write posts about how they never have sex outside of commitment when they've already told us time and time again what shenanigans they've pulled on the first date, then the bulk of this group would be in a happier place.

You know what's killing me tonight? People who are pining away for men that never loved them or who haven't been on a date in two years trying to tell me how I need to change...Help me understand what part of dating a great guy for the past year who wants to eventually get married makes you think I want to be like you when you can't even accept reality for yourself...?

I have no idea who those "truths" are about, but they sure are judgmental and preachy about the Peeps.:huh:

My issues may seem stupid to one person, but chances are their issues seem stupid to me. "Can't we all just get along??"

I clearly said earlier that we should agree to disagree. And I never claimed anyone's opinion was wrong or stupid, simply that your extreme passion for this topic was concerning to me...as is your defensiveness, since I don't believe you understood what I wrote. I don't have the patience to continue this thread...

There's no brightline to determine what is cheating and what is not for all couples.

It's up to individual relationships to determine for themselves what is acceptable and what is not.