Lifting Frustrations
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shellfly
Posts: 186
There are a couple of things bugging me lately that I hope some of you might have some input on.
First, I've been stuck for a while on most of my lifts. I'm relatively patient, but it seems like I must be doing something wrong to remain stuck for so long. I've been doing stronglifts for probably about 15 weeks now (prior to that I was working with dumbells and bodyweight exercises since February). They haven't all been consecutive nor linear. I made good gains early on, but when I finally got around to videoing myself, discovered I had a lot of form problems and deloaded a good bit to take care of them. Then, down the road, I had a problem with my hip that kept me out of the game for around a week and later after that, I had to take another week and do alternate bodyweight work (couldn't use the barbell equipment that week). Other than that deload and those two off weeks, I've been faithfully doing SL 3x/week, progressing when I'm able to but keeping good form as my top priority. I'm currently at 100 lbs on the squat, 130 lbs deadlift, 60 lbs bench (but can only do 4 reps per set on that), 40 lbs OHP, and 65 lbs row. I'm 5'5" and 115 lbs. I know that without putting on some weight, I do face some limits to the strength I can gain, but could I really be at those limits now?
The second thing is form and the differences of opinion on it that are out there among the various high ranking people that we've all heard of. In order to learn proper form, I went largely by the recommendations put out by Mark Rippetoe in his book and videos. I did, of course, also review SL recommendations and videos and the two seemed mostly well aligned. Anyway, Rippetoe teaches you to get down into the squat position and shove your knees out with your elbows then make sure your feet and knees are aligned, and that's your stance. Doing that, for me, I wind up with toes out probably a good 30%. Didn't think it was a problem, but a well known guy on the SL inner circle (my husband is a member) posted a thread about how he has a double hip impingement, needs surgery, and may never be able to squat again, and he blamed it in part on toes out too far and also APT (which I suspect I might have). He says that toes out is "old school" and they shouldn't point out more than 5-12 degrees. I went back to double-check Rippetoe's site to see if maybe there's a new way of thinking about it, but it didn't seem like it. So who's right? The guy with the double hip impingement is only 20 years old! I'm 42... The last thing I want to do as part of this journey is cause myself serious injury, but I don't know whether I'm on the road to it or not! It's got me really questioning everything about what I'm doing and why, and how I can find out the "right" way to do it - if anyone actually truly know what that is.
Anyway, I apologize for the rant. I really enjoy lifting; the challenge of it and the strength I have gained (used to be one of those people who couldn't even do a push-up or chin-up and never thought I'd be able to). I'm just trying to figure the right way forward for me. Thanks in advance for any advice/opinions!
First, I've been stuck for a while on most of my lifts. I'm relatively patient, but it seems like I must be doing something wrong to remain stuck for so long. I've been doing stronglifts for probably about 15 weeks now (prior to that I was working with dumbells and bodyweight exercises since February). They haven't all been consecutive nor linear. I made good gains early on, but when I finally got around to videoing myself, discovered I had a lot of form problems and deloaded a good bit to take care of them. Then, down the road, I had a problem with my hip that kept me out of the game for around a week and later after that, I had to take another week and do alternate bodyweight work (couldn't use the barbell equipment that week). Other than that deload and those two off weeks, I've been faithfully doing SL 3x/week, progressing when I'm able to but keeping good form as my top priority. I'm currently at 100 lbs on the squat, 130 lbs deadlift, 60 lbs bench (but can only do 4 reps per set on that), 40 lbs OHP, and 65 lbs row. I'm 5'5" and 115 lbs. I know that without putting on some weight, I do face some limits to the strength I can gain, but could I really be at those limits now?
The second thing is form and the differences of opinion on it that are out there among the various high ranking people that we've all heard of. In order to learn proper form, I went largely by the recommendations put out by Mark Rippetoe in his book and videos. I did, of course, also review SL recommendations and videos and the two seemed mostly well aligned. Anyway, Rippetoe teaches you to get down into the squat position and shove your knees out with your elbows then make sure your feet and knees are aligned, and that's your stance. Doing that, for me, I wind up with toes out probably a good 30%. Didn't think it was a problem, but a well known guy on the SL inner circle (my husband is a member) posted a thread about how he has a double hip impingement, needs surgery, and may never be able to squat again, and he blamed it in part on toes out too far and also APT (which I suspect I might have). He says that toes out is "old school" and they shouldn't point out more than 5-12 degrees. I went back to double-check Rippetoe's site to see if maybe there's a new way of thinking about it, but it didn't seem like it. So who's right? The guy with the double hip impingement is only 20 years old! I'm 42... The last thing I want to do as part of this journey is cause myself serious injury, but I don't know whether I'm on the road to it or not! It's got me really questioning everything about what I'm doing and why, and how I can find out the "right" way to do it - if anyone actually truly know what that is.
Anyway, I apologize for the rant. I really enjoy lifting; the challenge of it and the strength I have gained (used to be one of those people who couldn't even do a push-up or chin-up and never thought I'd be able to). I'm just trying to figure the right way forward for me. Thanks in advance for any advice/opinions!
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Hello
I have been stuck, progressed and stuck again - 8 weeks on the OHP @ 25kg55lbs ...until a form tweak let me get past this.
This morning I managed a 95kg/209 deadlift and a 30kg/66lb OHP and a 85kg/187lb squat
I have only been lifting a little longer that you - I think I'm around 14/15 weeks in - I am also just a little taller than you - 5ft 6/12 lbs and now 140 lbs (when i started lifting I was 133lbs).
One big thing I will say is that if your food intake is not happening you will struggle - I have now gained 7lbs as well and I am eating at maintenance (sometimes a tweak under, some times a tweak over). I want to take advantage of as much noobie gains as I can - and my arms have never, ever looked better!
The better I fuel the stronger I feel I can lift - that is struggle as I still have a "I want to be skinny" voice shouting inside that I need to drown out at times. So have a good look at your food intake - are you eating enough to build muscle and fuel your lifts?
Squat wise - toe,hips etc are all down to how your body functions - I probably turn my feet out at about a 20 to 30 degree angle to allow my hips to open wide enough to get deep enough on my squats (According to a chiropractor I saw a few years ago - my pelvis is crazy , title forward and angled...)
At the end of the day - you are still lifting, as frustrated as you are - you are doing awesome, keep going, add in a few accessories - I do push ups, air squats, body weight inverted rows, chin ups.
Have you read the Starting strength book by ripptoe - very technical (and a lot went over my head) but also great explanations - it was his description of the OHP that let me get through my OHP plateau - it was a form issue and something just clicked when i read this.
Not sure if the above is of any help - but keep lifting, I genuinally believe this si one of the best things any ladies can do.
Good luck and hopefully you'll get to blast a plateau soon,
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Everyone stalls at some point and at 15 weeks it is normal to have slower gains.
As for the toes and foot angle, I think a lot comes down to how YOU a built. Everyone has slightly different physiology that requires different form tweeks. I find I have better control of my knee tracking over my toes with a stance that some would find a bit narrow, but my legs can't do the proper track at wider stances. And since my stance is a little more narrow, my foot angle is a little less than 30 degrees. I read the squat portion of Starting Strength that talked about taking your time with pushing the knees out over the toes. I've been doing that before each session as a way to help stretch and maintain muscle memory. I just came back after nearly a month of any real barbell work and with these form changes, I have so far avoided any aggravation of my hipflexors and my progression has been on track.
Find what feels best for you, take some form videos and post them here or in the Eat, Train, Progress group. Some advice will be spot on, but what works for one, may not necessarily work for you.
Daisy is spot on with the food. If you are eating at a deficit, you may be limiting your strength gains a little. Also, you have to look at your lifts in terms of your body weight. You are deadlifting 1.13x your body weight. That is equal to a 155 lb deadlift for me. Based on body weight, you have some good numbers. Yes, gaining weight (in the form of muscle) would help you push your lifting numbers up. Everyone has different limits to their initial gains and you may be close to that point.
Keep at it.0 -
1. You are very light for your height. A lot of competitive female powerlifters are about your height, 5'4" to 5'6", and they tend to compete in the 148 lb class. That gives you an idea of how much weight you would have to gain to lift the big weights. But for now, you are still at a novice level for pretty much all of your lifts (based on this, for example):
http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html
Which means you are probably not stalling because you have exhausted your novice gains or are approaching your genetic limits. How much are you eating, and what is the macro breakdown? Are you getting any animal protein in your diet?
Basically, until you fix this, all of your other problems will not go away. Making muscle and strength gains requires a lot of energy--you are rebuilding damaged skeletal muscle tissue constantly, and if you are not eating enough, you will not make gains or recover from injuries enough to lift more the next time.
2. About your form question. you are not currently having any problems, but a guy on some internet forum said that Rippetoe's method gave him hip problems, and you are doubting your form for that reason alone?
3. About getting unstuck: you can decrease the weight and start again with microloading, or you can start doing things like taking longer rest breaks between sets. When that is no longer giving you strength gains, you could consider switching to an intermediate program that increases weight weekly rather than with every workout. But this assumes that eating and sleep and proper form are both taken care of, and I am not convinced this is the case yet.0 -
2. About your form question. you are not currently having any problems, but a guy on some internet forum said that Rippetoe's method gave him hip problems, and you are doubting your form for that reason alone?
^^
Unless this guy's hip condition can be directly related to squat form, rather than a congenital abnormality, I wouldn't worry about it, honestly. And as hip impingement goes, most of that has to do with preexisting hip anatomy and not necessarily the way someone squats. The squatting more than likely exposed and aggravated his preexisting hip problem, rather than being a direct cause of it.
If you suspect you have APT (whatever that is?), then go see an orthopod and get x-rayed and get it confirmed.
Rippetoe has been training professional athletes for decades, and his reputation as a strength coach is about as solid as you can get.
All that "inner circle" stuff is very sales pitch-y. I suspect there's really no "secrets" being revealed in those forums and that a lot of it is based on bro science. You can just as easily buy Starting Strength and use that to get all the training foundation you'll ever need.
The "push your knees out" helps you counter-act the tendency to let your knees come in on the way up from the squat, which is superbad form. You can find Mehdi discussing this as well, right here (point 5):
http://stronglifts.com/squatting-big-weights-essential-tips/
It's old school because it's proven solid form that works.
Bottom line: Squat stance is something that lets you end up with a wide variety of "correct" positions. The reason people can't all agree on "one correct form" is because it doesn't exist. Use the stance that serves you best, that's still considered proper form, be mindful of your spinal load from the second you step under that bar, and make sure you tighten every muscle and keep your spine positioned properly. Your legs will adjust and support you moving all that weight through space, and as long as your leg positioning is within acceptable range (which can be anywhere from a narrower to a wider stance, depending on what's most comfortable and natural to you), you'll be just fine.
More reading/videos for you:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cyberpump1.htm
http://www.schwarzenegger.com/fitness/post/squat-101
http://train.elitefts.com/instructional/so-you-think-you-can-squat-parts-1-5/0 -
First off your numbers are great!
I'm showing that you are a little bit past intermediate in squat and dead, and between untrained and novice in bench and ohp. (keeping in mind I'm using a calcuated 1RM for you.) It is entirely possible there is a giant disparity between your upper body and lower body in terms of strength. I also think it's quite possible that you might be able to tweak your form in these two lifts and get quite a jump in weight once you're used to the movement. Sometimes form is great from an injury prevention standpoint, but not so great from a move-the-most-weight perspective (which also takes into account injury prevention.)
I absolutely agree that you need to think in terms of your weight in ratio to the weight you are moving. Z times bw is an easy if simplistic way to do this. There are also several calculators available on the interwebz for this purpose. Some favor a certain type of lifter over another (raw vs geared, lightweight vs heavyweight, etc.) but they offer a bit more insight. A popular one is Wilks which can be found here http://wilkscalculator.com/lbs you can get your calculated 1RM and look at pretty blue bars here http://www.strstd.com/
Of course the most important thing is to compete against yourself, but it's still interesting to see how you compare to other powerlifters. For that I give you my friend whiskeysister's tale of powerlifting meets. Oh look she got state records and weights not much higher than yours in the same weight class http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077868-my-first-powerlifting-meet-photos?hl=powerlifting+meet
Also I would try switching to 3x5 and seeing if you start to progress again. When you are doing heavy squats 3xWeek combined with heavy deads it can really wear on you in terms of recovery.0 -
Daisy, I'd be curious on what your form tweak was. Even after all this time, I feel like a good portion of my OHP work is form work, and I think it's part of why the weight is still at 40. For instance, I find that I still move my back too much vs. just my head and hips, still have trouble keeping the bar on a completely vertical path, etc. It's just a tough lift for me all around.
No, I am not eating at a surplus, and I'm aware that I'm not going to be able to build muscle at a very fast rate without doing that. However, I am eating right up to my maintenance calories and try to make sure that my macros are in-line (and yes, I eat meat). I would think that I could still slowly build, to a point (what that point is, is part of my question). I don't know if it's an "I want to be skinny" voice for me so much as an "I want to be stable" voice when it comes to my weight. I had a lot of difficulty attaining stability after I hit maintenance, and I like it now that I have it (mostly - a change to my thyroid medicine recently threw me off again). Yes, I've read SS and often go back to it as well as watched (and watch) his videos.
Bumble, I am currently eating ~1800 cals/day with macros set to 55/25/20, and that does include meat. Regarding the form issue, the guy I was citing is on Medhi's staff and is quite well known there. He is (or was) a powerlifter squatting 640 lbs prior to his injury. Everyone there has a great deal of respect for him, so I do lend what he says some credence. From what I've read, he's garnered the opinion on no toes out more than 12 degrees from Kelly Starrett of mobilitywod.com. I have more reading to do and videos to watch on the topic. APT stands for anterior pelvic tilt (see http://www.swolept.com/posts/fixing-anterior-pelvic-tilt-posture-tricks-to-make-your-butt-and-gut-smaller#.UjaHVzXn-Uk), and there seems to be controversy there as well as to how much of a negative impact it can have on a lifter. This is exactly what the SLIC guy said about the two: "The people who develop hip impingements are those that move in Anterior Pelvic Tilt (APT for short). Combine APT with a toes out position and you're already "slamming" the hip joint into the socket. Hit it that way enough times and you start getting bony growths. The body likes neutral, but will make compensations to keep you moving. This is beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. But that becomes a problem when you get used to the bad position and don't let up when your body first warns you with pain." Of course, I don't currently have pain, and I do pay attention when my body gives me some, so I hopefully wouldn't let it go on the way he must have - I'd just like to prevent something like that even getting started.
Dani, thanks for the links - some I'd seen, and some I hadn't. Actually, the Inner Circle has proved to be a good resource for both my husband and me. There are a lot of great tips, and it's a very friendly, helpful community. I can definitely understand the sales pitch as a turn-off though, and I continue to be amazed that Medhi so blatantly ignores his potential female customers, but it's his business (or lack thereof). Yes, I had form problems with my knees which is why I originally got into the form prescribed by SS, and it definitely did help with that.
Fittree, thank you for all the good info and links. I really enjoyed reading Whiskey's story. I think she did some amazing work there, and it's inspiring to know she was able to lift weights like that at a lower bodyweight similar to mine. I really envy her high powered training too, must be so helpful! I may well switch programs and/or lifting numbers. Today, I actually deloaded on my squats and just added volume, wanting to really figure out whether I can/want to change my form and how it felt to do so. I found I was able to bring my toes in some but am probably still at a greater angle than 12 degrees. I'll probably stay at a lower weight and greater volume next time too, until I am feeling more certain of how I want to lift going forward (I'd also like to build a bit more endurance as it seems like the 100 lb squats really take it out of me too soon).
I appreciate all of the responses. Lots of good food for thought.0 -
I don't think I made my point clear about weight and eating. You have very little LBM for your height--and this will limit your ability to increase weight on the bar. You might have to decide what your main priority is--staying thin or getting strong. You could maintain your current strength without increasing the weight on the bar, but if you want to lift more, you have to gain some LBM. Some fat usually comes along with LBM, of course, so again, decide which you want more.0
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P.S. I would aim to gain at least 15 lb, given your height.0
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Thanks, Bumble, I do understand. I am just very hesitant about taking on the kind of lifestyle where I'm deliberately bumping calories up for a while and then having to drop them back down. I like stability, and also, I just don't trust myself. If I start eating more, I'm going to get pretty grumpy when it's time to eat less. Having found a maintenance spot where it seems like my body and mind are at peace, I really hate to rock that boat. We'll see though, I'm going to think about it.0
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I just want to add something. If I'm not mistaken, Nia Shanks is female powerlifter who has something close to a 300 lb deadlift and a 145 lb bench press, while remaining at a bodyweight of 121 lbs and height of 5' ft 6".....I think she holds some world records in her weight class, I could be wrong.
Anyway, just throwing it out there that you don't necessarily have to gain a lot of weight to improve your lifts. Perhaps tweaking your programming would be of better interest to you. If you enjoy Rippetoe, then check out "Practical Programming" if you haven't already done so for some intermediate-level ideas.0 -
^^ Indeed.
I will say that just this past Saturday, I watched a 105 pound woman who was 5 foot nothing, lift a combined 6.6 times her body weight between deadlift, squat, and bench press.
I have no idea what she eats or doesn't eat, and whether or not she goes through cut/bulk cycles, but obviously she's fueling her lifts to the point where she can knock them out of the park while at the same time being quite petite and slim. So if you're wanting to progress with your lifts, make sure you eat adequately, but at the same time if you're happy with your weight and that's your priority, understand that maybe you're not going to smash lifting records. It's really all about what's more important to you and there's always that give-and-take, and certainly there's genetics that do come into play also.0 -
Practical Programming for Strength Training is indeed an excellent recommendation. It explains, among other things, how much novice training bridges the gap between your starting untrained strength levels and your genetic potential. The answer: you generally end up almost halfway there--if you do it right (i.e., increase the weight with every workout to the extent possible, eat enough, don't train for marathons between lifting sessions, etc.). That is, if your genetic potential is to bench, say, 150 lb, and you start at 30, you can expect to get to 90 by the end of your novice training.
People vary widely in their genetic potential when it comes to strength and power performance. Some people can attain extraordinary strength even with suboptimal mechanics; this usually would mean that if they gained some muscle mass, they would perform at a truly competitive level (albeit in a more competitive weight class). In general, however, there is a simple predictor of a muscle's power output: the greater the ratio of cross-sectional area to the length of the lever (=bones), the more force you can produce.0 -
Thank you, Cats, Dani, and Bumble for the additional information!
Regarding my confusion with the squat, I almost humorously have to add one new, additional point of confusion. A friend suggested that I watch the "So You Think You Can Squat" video series, and I did so. One of the instructions that stood out to me was that you should look up during the squat in order to keep the chest up. That obviously goes against Rippetoe's instructions to look down, which I've been doing all this time. As I have a tendency to sometimes head for a good morning in my squats, I decided to try it (I've deloaded in order to work out form questions and issues anyway), and somewhat to my surprise, it did really help me to keep my chest up and stand up without leaning too far forward. So now I'm wondering if this is something I should continue doing, or if, while it seems helpful, it could lead to other problems. The questions never end, I'm afraid! How can one move be so very complicated?!0 -
the 'head up' thing is a high bar squat cue, if you put your head down in high bar you are liable to drop the bar over or roll it onto your head. I don't 'look down' but I try to have a neutral spine - which means looking somewhere between straight ahead, and at a point on the floor a few feet in front of me.
try the exercise Rip suggests where someone pushes on your lower back when you are at the bottom of an unweighted squat - try with both head positions and see where you have more power.
the 'chest up' might help - but remember that you will be less vertical in the chest in a low bar squat in any case. For me, thinking of the bar path staying vertical is more helpful - you want it to stay over the middle of your foot at all times.
I think all of this is trial and error - which is also why my squats have been deloaded so many darn times! I'm hoping to get a session with a trainer next month to have a look at them. I've mentioned already that I'm doing squats a la starting strength so hoping he's not going to try and mess that around!0 -
A squat is a complex system with many interacting parts, which is why it is important to be consistent about where you get your advice. I am convinced by Rippetoe's arguments for doing low bar squats in a particular way, because they are anatomically and mechanically sensible. Lydia already mentioned the issue of power under the bar--it's easier to lift with your butt when you are not arching your neck.
Looking down while doing the squat is important for balance--and you can convince yourself of this by doing a simple exercise. Stand on one foot while looking forward and slightly down, and then raise your eyes to the ceiling. Most people will lose their balance at that point.
Moreover, the cervical spine is a very fragile part of your anatomy. Craning your neck when there is a loaded bar resting on your shoulders and the muscles around the neck are contracted is just dangerous. Even in yoga, where you bend to the extreme just about every part of your body that will bend, people take precautions about neck position. The directions for many asanas specifically instruct you to look forward and slightly down. In Iyengar yoga, they now also recommend that you avoid overextending your neck in Salamba Sarvangasana (shoulderstand), because bending it at a 90 degree angle as it is usually done can cause blood vessels around the cervical spine to rupture and lead to a stroke.
Anyway, the only reason to look up while doing a squat is to cue you to lift the chest, and there are better ways to cue you to lift the chest. Like thinking about lifting the chest
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