Oh I totally agree... back to the marriage part, and even topic of this thread. The word "submit"... When Paul wrote Corinthians, there wasn't the word "submit" as we today think of submit. The word he actually used (which can still be misconstrued) means "to fall under" (hupotasso) and it was a military term. Like a Sargent would fall under a Captain and a Captain would fall under a General. And while there still may be an element of "obey" in this structure, it's not exactly a forced action and the end of that phrase is "in the Lord". If Paul meant for women to "obey unconditionally" he would have stated so as he did to the slaves and children. But in order to submit in the way that Paul urges there has to be a mutual respect there otherwise it won't work.

Also, when it comes to that verse, there are people that forget that Paul urged husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church, thus completing the mutual respect and honor towards each other. Submitting doesn't mean subjegating.

Yes, and let's not forget the verse (forgive me I don't have them memorized so I can't really cite them) "The unsanctified husband is sanctified by the wife." Therefore, the wife can act outside of the husband's will so long as her actions are godly.

How does this new, clearer and cleaner version of sacrifice jive with the whole Abraham and Isaac relationship?

Also, what of the imagery of the blood streaming from the heads of the slaughtered animals used to form one of the covenants with Yahweh?

How does this new, clearer and cleaner version of sacrifice jive with the whole Abraham and Isaac relationship?

God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the child that him and his wife longed for all of their lives, to test Abraham's loyalty. But when Abraham proved himself, God stopped him because he really didn't want Isaac's blood. He just wanted Abraham's loyalty. So, God made a covenant with Abraham to love and protect all of his descendants until the end of time. Jesus is actually the pinnacle fulfillment of that covenant. As Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, God, in turn, willingly sacrificed His own so that the sins of all of Abraham's descendants could be forgiven.

Also, what of the imagery of the blood streaming from the heads of the slaughtered animals used to form one of the covenants with Yahweh?

Of this, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Can you cite a particular verse that describes this and I will look it up when I get home and get back to you on that?

Asking someone to kill their own child doesn't sound very moral to me, whether he meant it or not.

Actually, feel free to disregard my last post. I feel as if we are going to derail even further from the OP.

God puts us through trials to test our love and commitment to him. Job was blessed threefold for the losses he had to endure as reward. As I've explained to other atheists in this group before, people die. They have to. It's part of maintaining the balance for future generations. It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

Actually, feel free to disregard my last post. I feel as if we are going to derail even further from the OP.

God puts us through trials to test our love and commitment to him. Job was blessed threefold for the losses he had to endure as reward. As I've explained to other atheists in this group before, people die. They have to. It's part of maintaining the balance for future generations. It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

So God is supposed to never let anyone die and everyone is always supposed to get everything they want without proving that they are worthy of it. That sounds legit because after all He is just a magic genie, right?

Why do agnostics and atheists always want to completely omit the natural principle of cause and effect from God's omnipotence?

Yes, he can do anything and can supercede any natural principle. He exists in a spiritual plane outside of this earthly plane. But earth is still subject to natural laws. The soul is a spiritual entity that He created and placed inside of an earthly vessel, of which He also created. Earthly vessels are subject to the natural principle of space-time and decay or get damaged. But thankfully, the soul allows us to connect with God who can intercede on our behalfs. But the thing to remember is that all of His actions have cause and effect. It is true that He can supercede that effect if He chooses to, but that would upset the natural order of things. God must maintain the balance.

Sometimes I think that if I were God, I would have said to hell with creation because of the overwhelming, complicated nature of having to maintain that balance. Fortunately, God is omnipotent and He can manage. He put the soul here for one purpose, to experience love, and thereby, learn to love Him. Just like children, you all are crying because at some point you asked God for something, probably very personal to you, and for whatever reason, He chose not to intercede. His reason for choosing not to intercede is pretty likely because of the potential effect it would have created. But you don't see that, because God avoided the pitfall of answering that prayer.

Part of the reason why we are compared to children and He is compared to a father is because the relationship is very much the same. God is capable of giving you everything you want, but either you have not proven yourself worthy OR the result would be much worse than you can imagine. I am capable of going on a shopping spree and buying my children whatever they want. But they didn't do their chores this week AND spending that money would mean I can't pay the mortgage.

So while you say, "God didn't give me what I wanted, therefore He must be evil (or not there - from the atheist perspective)," I say "God didn't give me what I wanted, and I'm sure He had a good reason for it." Be obedient, loving, faithful children.

Now...

Back to why crazy people think women should be stupid and declare it in the name of God.

So God is supposed to never let anyone die and everyone is always supposed to get everything they want without proving that they are worthy of it. That sounds legit because after all He is just a magic genie, right?

Why do agnostics and atheists always want to completely omit the natural principle of cause and effect from God's omnipotence?

Yes, he can do anything and can supercede any natural principle. He exists in a spiritual plane outside of this earthly plane. But earth is still subject to natural laws. The soul is a spiritual entity that He created and placed inside of an earthly vessel, of which He also created. Earthly vessels are subject to the natural principle of space-time and decay or get damaged. But thankfully, the soul allows us to connect with God who can intercede on our behalfs. But the thing to remember is that all of His actions have cause and effect. It is true that He can supercede that effect if He chooses to, but that would upset the natural order of things. God must maintain the balance.

Sometimes I think that if I were God, I would have said to hell with creation because of the overwhelming, complicated nature of having to maintain that balance. Fortunately, God is omnipotent and He can manage. He put the soul here for one purpose, to experience love, and thereby, learn to love Him. Just like children, you all are crying because at some point you asked God for something, probably very personal to you, and for whatever reason, He chose not to intercede. His reason for choosing not to intercede is pretty likely because of the potential effect it would have created. But you don't see that, because God avoided the pitfall of answering that prayer.

Part of the reason why we are compared to children and He is compared to a father is because the relationship is very much the same. God is capable of giving you everything you want, but either you have not proven yourself worthy OR the result would be much worse than you can imagine. I am capable of going on a shopping spree and buying my children whatever they want. But they didn't do their chores this week AND spending that money would mean I can't pay the mortgage.

So while you say, "God didn't give me what I wanted, therefore He must be evil (or not there - from the atheist perspective)," I say "God didn't give me what I wanted, and I'm sure He had a good reason for it." Be obedient, loving, faithful children.

Now...

Back to why crazy people think women should be stupid and declare it in the name of God.

No...I am not mad because I asked God for something an he didn't give it to me. I am mad because people keep killing and oppressing other people in the name of this creation who is supposed to be all about love but kills and destroys at will why playing mind games to "test our love."

To say that someone would have died eventually anyway does not negate the fact that they would not have died at that point if God had not told the devil to go ahead and do it. Or, if god had not sent his angels to do it. OR, if god had not decimated the city with fire and brimstone. OR if God had decided to say, "whoops" and then flood the whole place. There is a difference between not being able to prevent someone from dieing and someone dieing because of your direct actions.

Well first off, I don't take any human action in the "name of God" seriously, particularly when those actions are evil.

Secondly, going back to the comparison of God as a parent figure, most of those things that bother you were meant to be punishment for evil-doers, possibly even some that declared they were doing it in the "name of God".

It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

Have you ever lost someone really close to you? I'm talking inner circle of family close, not great aunt myrtle or grandpa when he was 97 and you were three.

It's hard to comprehend how callous that idea really is unless you have actually suffered a loss like that.

My mom lost her only son. I lost my only brother. There's no way any other person or relationship could ever make up for that loss, and if I believed there was a diety who had the power to stop it and failed to, I'd curse the sky.

Furthermore, if I believed that such a diety had allowed him to die only to prove a point to the devil (who was his own creation), yet somehow this was proof of that diety's love for me, then I'd really question my sanity.



The Job story does not speak well of this character named Yahweh.

It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

Have you ever lost someone really close to you? I'm talking inner circle of family close, not great aunt myrtle or grandpa when he was 97 and you were three.

It's hard to comprehend how callous that idea really is unless you have actually suffered a loss like that.

My mom lost her only son. I lost my only brother. There's no way any other person or relationship could ever make up for that loss, and if I believed there was a diety who had the power to stop it and failed to, I'd curse the sky.

Furthermore, if I believed that such a diety had allowed him to die only to prove a point to the devil (who was his own creation), yet somehow this was proof of that diety's love for me, then I'd really question my sanity.



The Job story does not speak well of this character named Yahweh.

I lost my father when I was 3 from a head injury that could potentially have been murder (ruled an accident, but we have our suspicions). He was only 24. Yes, I have experienced loss. I seriously doubt that there is anyone that has gone through life and never lost someone that they loved. Yes, it can be a hard concept to grapple with when you are still grieving.

But that doesn't change the fact that people have to die. Time wears the body down inevitably, and the earth would quickly become overpopulated and food would be scarce.

When you embrace the idea that you are something more than blood, flesh, and bone, then things like death and evil become a little more tolerable.

It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

Have you ever lost someone really close to you? I'm talking inner circle of family close, not great aunt myrtle or grandpa when he was 97 and you were three.

It's hard to comprehend how callous that idea really is unless you have actually suffered a loss like that.

My mom lost her only son. I lost my only brother. There's no way any other person or relationship could ever make up for that loss, and if I believed there was a diety who had the power to stop it and failed to, I'd curse the sky.

Furthermore, if I believed that such a diety had allowed him to die only to prove a point to the devil (who was his own creation), yet somehow this was proof of that diety's love for me, then I'd really question my sanity.



The Job story does not speak well of this character named Yahweh.

I lost my father when I was 3 from a head injury that could potentially have been murder (ruled an accident, but we have our suspicions). He was only 24. Yes, I have experienced loss. I seriously doubt that there is anyone that has gone through life and never lost someone that they loved. Yes, it can be a hard concept to grapple with when you are still grieving.

But that doesn't change the fact that people have to die. Time wears the body down inevitably, and the earth would quickly become overpopulated and food would be scarce.

When you embrace the idea that you are something more than blood, flesh, and bone, then things like death and evil become a little more tolerable.

We should never tolerate evil.

I was going to come back later to respond to doorki because I'm at work and I don't have time.

But tell me, at 3, what exactly was I supposed to do about the evil done to my father? Sometimes you don't have any choice but to tolerate evil. If you can get justice, then you should, but that doesn't mean that it is always within your power to do anything at all about evil.

*edited just to get ahead of myself - You will probably blame our inability to take any action against evil on God too.

It might seem callous to you, but Job's kids were going to die eventually anyway. Perhaps losing his first set of children made him appreciate the later children all the more.

Have you ever lost someone really close to you? I'm talking inner circle of family close, not great aunt myrtle or grandpa when he was 97 and you were three.

It's hard to comprehend how callous that idea really is unless you have actually suffered a loss like that.

My mom lost her only son. I lost my only brother. There's no way any other person or relationship could ever make up for that loss, and if I believed there was a diety who had the power to stop it and failed to, I'd curse the sky.

Furthermore, if I believed that such a diety had allowed him to die only to prove a point to the devil (who was his own creation), yet somehow this was proof of that diety's love for me, then I'd really question my sanity.



The Job story does not speak well of this character named Yahweh.

I lost my father when I was 3 from a head injury that could potentially have been murder (ruled an accident, but we have our suspicions). He was only 24. Yes, I have experienced loss. I seriously doubt that there is anyone that has gone through life and never lost someone that they loved. Yes, it can be a hard concept to grapple with when you are still grieving.

But that doesn't change the fact that people have to die. Time wears the body down inevitably, and the earth would quickly become overpopulated and food would be scarce.

When you embrace the idea that you are something more than blood, flesh, and bone, then things like death and evil become a little more tolerable.

We should never tolerate evil.

I was going to come back later to respond to doorki because I'm at work and I don't have time.

But tell me, at 3, what exactly was I supposed to do about the evil done to my father? Sometimes you don't have any choice but to tolerate evil. If you can get justice, then you should, but that doesn't mean that it is always within your power to do anything at all about evil.

*edited just to get ahead of myself - You will probably blame our inability to take any action against evil on God too.

"But tell me, at 3, what exactly was I supposed to do about the evil done to my father" I think you just answered your own question. 3 year olds can't do much of anything. But I'm not talking about personal experiences...I was talking about Job. What god supposedly did was evil in everyone's eyes except those who are believers because they have to try and justify it. Speaking for myself, it's really the same as if a muslim told me,


"Well. yes innocent children did die on 9/11, but Mohammed and god do tell us to kill infidels so we must trust his wisdom. Besides, those kids were eventually going to die anyways."

And I don't blame god, because I don't think the story ever happened and there is no god. it's just a horrible parable about blind obedience.

Okay... but its not the same. What don't you understand that evil must exist as a part of balance in nature? God can supercede it, but that kind of defeats the original purpose of putting people here to learn to love. You can't appreciate what you have until you have lost, you can't recognize good until you see bad, and you won't strive for better if you don't experience struggle.

God is simply hope that something better exists outside of the earthly realm. If you don't want or need that hope, then that's fine. But don't pass judgment on my God or my faith in Him, just because you don't feel like He has done enough.

Here's the thing... from the very moment that Adam and Eve at from the forbidden fruit in the middle of the Garden and had their "eyes open" we have become "evil". Not because of some inane act, but because of disobedience to God's command... so in essence, in the eye's of God we are all "evil" whether we like it or not... whether we believe otherwise or not.... evil came into the word at that very moment of disobedience... However, God gave us a way to be redeemed of that evil... first through the sacrifice of animals and then through the sacrifice of Christ. So whether we think people are evil are relevent or not is inconsequential... callous, perhaps... but it comes with the price of disobedience. The scriptures specfically say that the world was filled with evil in both the account of Noah and the account of Soddom and Gomorrah. If you read the account of the latter Abraham bargained with God to save Sodom and Gomorrah a handful of times based on how many righteous people where there and in God's eye's there was only ONE person there that was righteous. So to say they weren't all evil was apparently not God's thought.

There have also been a handful of times where the Israelites where at war with another group and they let the women/children live and it came back to bite them in the *kitten*, because those children came back with a vegence (which is understandable from a human point of view) to murder the Israelites.

The point is, as harsh, callous and even selfish as this may sound... God does things to show His power and for His glory. Yes, we can see that as arrogant... but He has stated many times He is a jealous God and He wants all the glory.

Okay... but its not the same. What don't you understand that evil must exist as a part of balance in nature? God can supercede it, but that kind of defeats the original purpose of putting people here to learn to love. You can't appreciate what you have until you have lost, you can't recognize good until you see bad, and you won't strive for better if you don't experience struggle.

God is simply hope that something better exists outside of the earthly realm. If you don't want or need that hope, then that's fine. But don't pass judgment on my God or my faith in Him, just because you don't feel like He has done enough.

^and it is that belief in something outside this earthly realm that leads people to believe that parables like Job and the murdering of people of all ages is ok as long as it is divinely inspired. It's not. And your Ying and Yang philosophy sounds great about a divine entity creating evil and letting evil happen for the sake of people coming to appreciate not having their children murdered...until you realize that god is supposed to be all powerful and could have just instantly made all humans appreciative without war, famine, blood sacrifice and murdering little Egyptian babies.