A couple of questions about this routine
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christianteach
Posts: 593 Member
How long does this take? It appears you do 5 sets of 5 reps for 3 different exercises a day. I'm currently doing AllPro's which is anywhere from 8-12 reps and 6 different exercises, which takes about 40 minutes. I am on my last week of cycle two, so I've only been doing this about 10 weeks. I still don't understand the advantages between the two... I assume doing less reps with heavier weights would increase strength faster...is this correct? What other differences in results are there? What is the benefit of one over the other?
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to begin with it will probably take you about 30-40 mins because the weight won't be -that- heavy for you (and it's only 1x5 or 5x1 of deadlifts too) and you won't need long between sets, just long enough to get your breath back and your heart rate down.
as the weight goes up, so do the rest periods, and it will take longer. once it starts taking 75-90 minutes that is not going to be productive time, so it might be time to look at doing 3x5 instead of 5x5... which is what I started doing before I'd even done a complete 12 week cycle...0 -
AllPro's aims at more than providing pure strength, from what I understand it. You're working on some hypertrophy and endurance also since you're going all the way up to 12 reps before you increase the weight at next cycle. The genius of AllPro's is that it has built-in deload days so you never have to figure out when to deload, because the program has it covered already. You have your heaviest day after the longest resting period. Whoever invented this program, put a lot of thought into it beforehand to make sure that it makes sense and is actually sustainable.
3x5/5x5 is strictly in the strength range with a little hypertrophy mixed in, and programs like Starting Strength and Stronglifts aim to increase the maximum amount of strength in the most efficient way possible, in the shortest amount of time invested.
I tried AllPro's for a few weeks and could never get past 10 reps. I've also done 5x5 and 3x5 and am now doing 3x8 which seem to be my personal "sweet spot". 12 was too much, 5 not enough, and so there you go. I was also dealing with major core weakness where increasing weight wasn't feasible because my core couldn't support it, so I had to reset everything and am now taking it up much slower and letting my core catch up, since I'm unwilling to do a bunch of accessory core work. I also enjoyed a staggered 5x5 where I increased the weight per set, with a max weight aimed for that day, and I may revisit that at some point; but I'm happy with the 3x8 for now.
There are enough programs and variations out there for everyone to find something that suits them. Keep in mind, though, that there is no perfect program, just "good enough", and so the best program, really, is the one you're actually doing that lets you continually get stronger and fitter along the way and supports your overall fitness goals.
Having said that, if AllPro's is working for you and you enjoy it, then you should continue it. It's a proven, solid program. If not, maybe discuss with Sara/SideSteel ideas for what to do next.0 -
to begin with it will probably take you about 30-40 mins because the weight won't be -that- heavy for you (and it's only 1x5 or 5x1 of deadlifts too) and you won't need long between sets, just long enough to get your breath back and your heart rate down.
as the weight goes up, so do the rest periods, and it will take longer. once it starts taking 75-90 minutes that is not going to be productive time, so it might be time to look at doing 3x5 instead of 5x5... which is what I started doing before I'd even done a complete 12 week cycle...
That's more time than I have to invest right now. Thanks for your response!0 -
AllPro's aims at more than providing pure strength, from what I understand it. You're working on some hypertrophy and endurance also since you're going all the way up to 12 reps before you increase the weight at next cycle. The genius of AllPro's is that it has built-in deload days so you never have to figure out when to deload, because the program has it covered already. You have your heaviest day after the longest resting period. Whoever invented this program, put a lot of thought into it beforehand to make sure that it makes sense and is actually sustainable.
3x5/5x5 is strictly in the strength range with a little hypertrophy mixed in, and programs like Starting Strength and Stronglifts aim to increase the maximum amount of strength in the most efficient way possible, in the shortest amount of time invested.
I tried AllPro's for a few weeks and could never get past 10 reps. I've also done 5x5 and 3x5 and am now doing 3x8 which seem to be my personal "sweet spot". 12 was too much, 5 not enough, and so there you go. I was also dealing with major core weakness where increasing weight wasn't feasible because my core couldn't support it, so I had to reset everything and am now taking it up much slower and letting my core catch up, since I'm unwilling to do a bunch of accessory core work. I also enjoyed a staggered 5x5 where I increased the weight per set, with a max weight aimed for that day, and I may revisit that at some point; but I'm happy with the 3x8 for now.
There are enough programs and variations out there for everyone to find something that suits them. Keep in mind, though, that there is no perfect program, just "good enough", and so the best program, really, is the one you're actually doing that lets you continually get stronger and fitter along the way and supports your overall fitness goals.
Having said that, if AllPro's is working for you and you enjoy it, then you should continue it. It's a proven, solid program. If not, maybe discuss with Sara/SideSteel ideas for what to do next.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I do enjoy AllPro's...I just get a little impatient sometimes because you lift the same weight for 5 whole weeks. I feel like my progress is very slow. Then I failed my deadlifts last time so I have to do the same weight for another 5 weeks, when I felt perfectly comfortable the first 4 with it. I think I only failed it because I had a gap in that training period due to a wrist injury. I also switched up my times for test day and did it first thing in the morning when I normally do it at night after a big dinner. Anyway, I'm just frustrated that I have to do the same weight (just on SLDL) for another 5 weeks because of 1 bad day. Maybe I will take a video and work on my form or something so I feel like I'm still accomplishing something over the 5 weeks. The appeal of this program for me was the constant progression. I should probably stick to what I already know and like though. I may go off doing a specific program in a few months anyway because now that I belong to a gym that has tons of shiny new machines to tempt me, I want to try some of them out...mix up what I'm already doing with some extras. I don't believe AllPro wants you doing anything else. I will finally be finished with school Jan. 15, so I'm considering hiring a personal trainer at that point. Hopefully our gym has at least one really good one. In the meantime, I would like to build up some strength and hit my goal weight...although I bet a trainer would want me to lose more.0 -
AllPro's aims at more than providing pure strength, from what I understand it. You're working on some hypertrophy and endurance also since you're going all the way up to 12 reps before you increase the weight at next cycle. The genius of AllPro's is that it has built-in deload days so you never have to figure out when to deload, because the program has it covered already. You have your heaviest day after the longest resting period. Whoever invented this program, put a lot of thought into it beforehand to make sure that it makes sense and is actually sustainable.
3x5/5x5 is strictly in the strength range with a little hypertrophy mixed in, and programs like Starting Strength and Stronglifts aim to increase the maximum amount of strength in the most efficient way possible, in the shortest amount of time invested.
I tried AllPro's for a few weeks and could never get past 10 reps. I've also done 5x5 and 3x5 and am now doing 3x8 which seem to be my personal "sweet spot". 12 was too much, 5 not enough, and so there you go. I was also dealing with major core weakness where increasing weight wasn't feasible because my core couldn't support it, so I had to reset everything and am now taking it up much slower and letting my core catch up, since I'm unwilling to do a bunch of accessory core work. I also enjoyed a staggered 5x5 where I increased the weight per set, with a max weight aimed for that day, and I may revisit that at some point; but I'm happy with the 3x8 for now.
There are enough programs and variations out there for everyone to find something that suits them. Keep in mind, though, that there is no perfect program, just "good enough", and so the best program, really, is the one you're actually doing that lets you continually get stronger and fitter along the way and supports your overall fitness goals.
Having said that, if AllPro's is working for you and you enjoy it, then you should continue it. It's a proven, solid program. If not, maybe discuss with Sara/SideSteel ideas for what to do next.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I do enjoy AllPro's...I just get a little impatient sometimes because you lift the same weight for 5 whole weeks. I feel like my progress is very slow. Then I failed my deadlifts last time so I have to do the same weight for another 5 weeks, when I felt perfectly comfortable the first 4 with it. I think I only failed it because I had a gap in that training period due to a wrist injury. I also switched up my times for test day and did it first thing in the morning when I normally do it at night after a big dinner. Anyway, I'm just frustrated that I have to do the same weight (just on SLDL) for another 5 weeks because of 1 bad day. Maybe I will take a video and work on my form or something so I feel like I'm still accomplishing something over the 5 weeks. The appeal of this program for me was the constant progression. I should probably stick to what I already know and like though. I may go off doing a specific program in a few months anyway because now that I belong to a gym that has tons of shiny new machines to tempt me, I want to try some of them out...mix up what I'm already doing with some extras. I don't believe AllPro wants you doing anything else. I will finally be finished with school Jan. 15, so I'm considering hiring a personal trainer at that point. Hopefully our gym has at least one really good one. In the meantime, I would like to build up some strength and hit my goal weight...although I bet a trainer would want me to lose more.
Hmm, if the program has novices lifting the same weight for 5 weeks straight, it sounds like it was devised by someone who doesn't understand the novice potential for strength gain. As a novice, you can quite literally increase the weight with each workout, and if you make the increases manageable, the gains can last many months. For women, "manageable" usually means 5 lb jumps on large muscle compound lifts (squats, deads) and 2.5 lb jumps on overhead presses and bench presses.
It sounds like you have several goals in mind, but if strength is one of them, I recommend switching to a progressive program as soon as possible.0 -
AllPro's aims at more than providing pure strength, from what I understand it. You're working on some hypertrophy and endurance also since you're going all the way up to 12 reps before you increase the weight at next cycle. The genius of AllPro's is that it has built-in deload days so you never have to figure out when to deload, because the program has it covered already. You have your heaviest day after the longest resting period. Whoever invented this program, put a lot of thought into it beforehand to make sure that it makes sense and is actually sustainable.
3x5/5x5 is strictly in the strength range with a little hypertrophy mixed in, and programs like Starting Strength and Stronglifts aim to increase the maximum amount of strength in the most efficient way possible, in the shortest amount of time invested.
I tried AllPro's for a few weeks and could never get past 10 reps. I've also done 5x5 and 3x5 and am now doing 3x8 which seem to be my personal "sweet spot". 12 was too much, 5 not enough, and so there you go. I was also dealing with major core weakness where increasing weight wasn't feasible because my core couldn't support it, so I had to reset everything and am now taking it up much slower and letting my core catch up, since I'm unwilling to do a bunch of accessory core work. I also enjoyed a staggered 5x5 where I increased the weight per set, with a max weight aimed for that day, and I may revisit that at some point; but I'm happy with the 3x8 for now.
There are enough programs and variations out there for everyone to find something that suits them. Keep in mind, though, that there is no perfect program, just "good enough", and so the best program, really, is the one you're actually doing that lets you continually get stronger and fitter along the way and supports your overall fitness goals.
Having said that, if AllPro's is working for you and you enjoy it, then you should continue it. It's a proven, solid program. If not, maybe discuss with Sara/SideSteel ideas for what to do next.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I do enjoy AllPro's...I just get a little impatient sometimes because you lift the same weight for 5 whole weeks. I feel like my progress is very slow. Then I failed my deadlifts last time so I have to do the same weight for another 5 weeks, when I felt perfectly comfortable the first 4 with it. I think I only failed it because I had a gap in that training period due to a wrist injury. I also switched up my times for test day and did it first thing in the morning when I normally do it at night after a big dinner. Anyway, I'm just frustrated that I have to do the same weight (just on SLDL) for another 5 weeks because of 1 bad day. Maybe I will take a video and work on my form or something so I feel like I'm still accomplishing something over the 5 weeks. The appeal of this program for me was the constant progression. I should probably stick to what I already know and like though. I may go off doing a specific program in a few months anyway because now that I belong to a gym that has tons of shiny new machines to tempt me, I want to try some of them out...mix up what I'm already doing with some extras. I don't believe AllPro wants you doing anything else. I will finally be finished with school Jan. 15, so I'm considering hiring a personal trainer at that point. Hopefully our gym has at least one really good one. In the meantime, I would like to build up some strength and hit my goal weight...although I bet a trainer would want me to lose more.
Hmm, if the program has novices lifting the same weight for 5 weeks straight, it sounds like it was devised by someone who doesn't understand the novice potential for strength gain. As a novice, you can quite literally increase the weight with each workout, and if you make the increases manageable, the gains can last many months. For women, "manageable" usually means 5 lb jumps on large muscle compound lifts (squats, deads) and 2.5 lb jumps on overhead presses and bench presses.
It sounds like you have several goals in mind, but if strength is one of them, I recommend switching to a progressive program as soon as possible.
You lift the same weight for 5 weeks straight but increase the reps each week...beginning with 5 and moving to 12, then increase weight only if you are able to do all 12 reps on test day. Sara and SS picked this program for me. My goals are increasing strength and lbm, as well as reaching my goal weight which I'm very close to now...although the closer I get to it the more I'm thinking I need to lose more weight. I am starting to look okay in clothes but without them I still see fat everywhere.0 -
Well, do what you must.0
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Well, do what you must.
I don't know what I want to do. I like AllPro's but the slow progress is very frustrating. My lifts are wimpy because we lift the same weight for so long. I have a membership at a nice gym but I'm too embarrassed to do this there because my weights are so low. I do have everything I need to do it at home but it would be nice to use some of their machines after completing this. Especially something for my calves, since I don't do the optional calf raises, and my abs. I am debating on just sticking with this until I finish my masters in 4 months or switching to something different before beginning cycle 3. I read about all these women on here lifting some heavy weights and I want to lift more too.0 -
Well, do what you must.
I don't know what I want to do. I like AllPro's but the slow progress is very frustrating. My lifts are wimpy because we lift the same weight for so long. I have a membership at a nice gym but I'm too embarrassed to do this there because my weights are so low. I do have everything I need to do it at home but it would be nice to use some of their machines after completing this. Especially something for my calves, since I don't do the optional calf raises, and my abs. I am debating on just sticking with this until I finish my masters in 4 months or switching to something different before beginning cycle 3. I read about all these women on here lifting some heavy weights and I want to lift more too.
Well, listen to your body. It's obviously asking you to pick a heavier weight.0 -
Well, do what you must.
I don't know what I want to do. I like AllPro's but the slow progress is very frustrating. My lifts are wimpy because we lift the same weight for so long. I have a membership at a nice gym but I'm too embarrassed to do this there because my weights are so low. I do have everything I need to do it at home but it would be nice to use some of their machines after completing this. Especially something for my calves, since I don't do the optional calf raises, and my abs. I am debating on just sticking with this until I finish my masters in 4 months or switching to something different before beginning cycle 3. I read about all these women on here lifting some heavy weights and I want to lift more too.
Well, listen to your body. It's obviously asking you to pick a heavier weight.
I agree. I have yet to experience any muscle soreness as a result of lifting, which I find odd. I feel like if I was working hard enough I would. I remember many years ago having a personal trainer and he pushed me hard. I was always sore after my workouts with him. (Sometimes too sore!) I want to push myself and see what I'm capable of.0 -
I agree. I have yet to experience any muscle soreness as a result of lifting, which I find odd. I feel like if I was working hard enough I would. I remember many years ago having a personal trainer and he pushed me hard. I was always sore after my workouts with him. (Sometimes too sore!) I want to push myself and see what I'm capable of.
Soreness is not an indicator of progress. Increased weight on the bar is an indicator of progress (or in your case, reps per set). The causes of DOMS can be idiopathic, but the usual way to induce soreness in a laboratory setting is to use muscles eccentrically rather than concentrically. This is what they do in sports medicine studies. Something like a negative chin-up, where you start in the up position and slowly descend, lengthening the muscles under load, will make you sore in no time. This particular exercise will also make you stronger in preparation for real chin-ups, but that is not a necessary corollary of eccentric muscle contraction. I've gotten rather sore from yoga in the past--the reason is that it involves eccentric or isometric contractions. Soreness galore, yes. Strength? Not at all, in fact, quite the opposite.
It sounds like you are getting some contradictory advice that you are having trouble sorting out, and I don't want to add to the confusion. The main thing to understand about programs such as SL and Starting Strength is that they are designed to make you strong in the shortest amount of time possible. That is not the goal of AllPro, which sounds like it is a beginner bodybuilder program geared towards hypertrophy. (I don't really know that much about it; I've just seen the BB post that seems to be the primary source in which it is laid out.) As long as you understand the different goals and decide which you want to prioritize, you can make your own decisions about how to proceed and what to ask your trainer.0 -
I agree. I have yet to experience any muscle soreness as a result of lifting, which I find odd. I feel like if I was working hard enough I would. I remember many years ago having a personal trainer and he pushed me hard. I was always sore after my workouts with him. (Sometimes too sore!) I want to push myself and see what I'm capable of.
Then maybe maintain the same 3x/week lifting routine but stay at 3x8 and increase the weights every week rather than the reps.
AllPro's has accessory work such as triceps and biceps curls and calf raises that you can easily drop and just focus on the main lifts (squat, deadlift, OHP and bench) and make progress in that way. Or not. Up to you. If you like them, by all means continue.
I do think the 2 AllPro cycles should have given you a good foundation as far as learning the main lifts and the form in which to do them, and now it's probably just a matter of applying what you've learned and find a program that suits your goals better.
AllPro still provides you with plenty of progress, because you are increasing those reps every week and the weights every 6 weeks, so your body is becoming stronger and fitter, for sure. Progress is progress, either way you slice it. And ,you should have been noticing that out there in the real world certain tasks become easier and your body is shaping up to look differently than it did when you started.
What's your priority? Strength? Fitness? Shape? What? AllPro's certainly gives you strength and shape both, but with a leaning more towards shape, with the strength moving along nicely, albeit slower than it would with a 5x5 or 3x5.
What is it you want to do? Where is it you want to be a year from now? Start there, and then decide. The world's your oyster, it all depends on what you want.0 -
I agree. I have yet to experience any muscle soreness as a result of lifting, which I find odd. I feel like if I was working hard enough I would. I remember many years ago having a personal trainer and he pushed me hard. I was always sore after my workouts with him. (Sometimes too sore!) I want to push myself and see what I'm capable of.
Soreness is not an indicator of progress. Increased weight on the bar is an indicator of progress (or in your case, reps per set). The causes of DOMS can be idiopathic, but the usual way to induce soreness in a laboratory setting is to use muscles eccentrically rather than concentrically. This is what they do in sports medicine studies. Something like a negative chin-up, where you start in the up position and slowly descend, lengthening the muscles under load, will make you sore in no time. This particular exercise will also make you stronger in preparation for real chin-ups, but that is not a necessary corollary of eccentric muscle contraction. I've gotten rather sore from yoga in the past--the reason is that it involves eccentric or isometric contractions. Soreness galore, yes. Strength? Not at all, in fact, quite the opposite.
It sounds like you are getting some contradictory advice that you are having trouble sorting out, and I don't want to add to the confusion. The main thing to understand about programs such as SL and Starting Strength is that they are designed to make you strong in the shortest amount of time possible. That is not the goal of AllPro, which sounds like it is a beginner bodybuilder program geared towards hypertrophy. (I don't really know that much about it; I've just seen the BB post that seems to be the primary source in which it is laid out.) As long as you understand the different goals and decide which you want to prioritize, you can make your own decisions about how to proceed and what to ask your trainer.
Thanks for the clarification! I always thought if I wasn't feeling any pain I wasn't really accomplishing much.
I knew that AllPro's was designed for hypertrophy but I don't really know what that means. Yes, I know how to use google and have but I still don't totally understand.0 -
Bigger, not necessarily stronger is my interpretation :-)0
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I agree. I have yet to experience any muscle soreness as a result of lifting, which I find odd. I feel like if I was working hard enough I would. I remember many years ago having a personal trainer and he pushed me hard. I was always sore after my workouts with him. (Sometimes too sore!) I want to push myself and see what I'm capable of.
Then maybe maintain the same 3x/week lifting routine but stay at 3x8 and increase the weights every week rather than the reps.
AllPro's has accessory work such as triceps and biceps curls and calf raises that you can easily drop and just focus on the main lifts (squat, deadlift, OHP and bench) and make progress in that way. Or not. Up to you. If you like them, by all means continue.
I do think the 2 AllPro cycles should have given you a good foundation as far as learning the main lifts and the form in which to do them, and now it's probably just a matter of applying what you've learned and find a program that suits your goals better.
AllPro still provides you with plenty of progress, because you are increasing those reps every week and the weights every 6 weeks, so your body is becoming stronger and fitter, for sure. Progress is progress, either way you slice it. And ,you should have been noticing that out there in the real world certain tasks become easier and your body is shaping up to look differently than it did when you started.
What's your priority? Strength? Fitness? Shape? What? AllPro's certainly gives you strength and shape both, but with a leaning more towards shape, with the strength moving along nicely, albeit slower than it would with a 5x5 or 3x5.
What is it you want to do? Where is it you want to be a year from now? Start there, and then decide. The world's your oyster, it all depends on what you want.
The curls aren't listed as optional and I do them. The calf raises are and I do not. I would love to work those at the gym...they have some really great machines for that.
I have seen results on the scales and in my measurements. I have only checked my measurements once though, after I completed cycle 1. I still have my 90% load to do today and my 80% for Tuesday and then I will measure again. I hope I dropped as many inches as I did last time. I know I have lost some more because my new pants I bought in early Aug. for this school year are too big already! :happy:
My goals, you ask...well if I had to list them in order:
1. I want to look good without clothes!!!
2. I want to increase my lean body mass, while losing fat (See goal number one.
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3. I want to increase strength.
4. I want to be physically fit and healthy.
A year from now I want a great body my husband would appreciate, I want to be in great shape (fitness) and I want to be lifting HEAVY!! I want it all! lol0 -
Bigger, not necessarily stronger is my interpretation :-)
Bigger is NOT my goal! I want a leaner look, but I want to be strong and fit. I want to look good. I already see my body becoming more compact which I like.
Edited to add: Which would make me bigger, not stronger? AllPro's or SL?0 -
Bigger is NOT my goal! I want a leaner look, but I want to be strong and fit. I want to look good. I already see my body becoming more compact which I like.
If it ain't broke, why try to fix it? You have been, are getting and will continue to get stronger with AllPro's. It'll just take longer than it would with Stonglifts or Starting Strength. And you're shrinking, not getting bigger, so it's obviously working for you.
If you stick with AllPro's and get the weight up by 10% each month, in 12 months you will have made significant strength gains.
If you're happy with what you're doing and it's working for you, my advice to you would be to just milk it until it no longer works.
Maybe you don't need a new program; but just apply a greater amount of patience to the one you're currently doing.
Or you could give Stronglifts a whirl for a month, and if you're unhappy with the result, go back to AllPro's. Or switch them off on a monthly basis. Nobody says you can't alternate 2 programs.
I'm so ADD I switch my program like every month, so consider the source of that advice. But hey, I'm still lifting and still pursuing that path to fitness 9 months after I started, and that's definitely saying something, given my track record in that department. :laugh:0 -
I suspect unless eating at an excess you won't "bulk" in the same way as a hungry testosterone filled 18 year old lad!0
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Many people want to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously, but it's basically impossible. You always gain some fat along with the muscle (which happens when you eat at a surplus), and you always lose some muscle when you lose fat (which happens when you eat at a deficit). Weight training simply allows you to stack things a bit in the direction of maximizing muscle, whether you are gaining or losing mass overall. But as Lydia said, women have a harder time gaining muscle, even while weight training to the max and eating at a surplus. We are just hormonally biased towards fat gain and fat preservation.
I don't know much about hypertrophy--you might want to ask some of the more bodybuilding-oriented folks out there. I train for strength and mostly read about that, not hypertrophy.0 -
Bigger is NOT my goal! I want a leaner look, but I want to be strong and fit. I want to look good. I already see my body becoming more compact which I like.
If it ain't broke, why try to fix it? You have been, are getting and will continue to get stronger with AllPro's. It'll just take longer than it would with Stonglifts or Starting Strength. And you're shrinking, not getting bigger, so it's obviously working for you.
If you stick with AllPro's and get the weight up by 10% each month, in 12 months you will have made significant strength gains.
If you're happy with what you're doing and it's working for you, my advice to you would be to just milk it until it no longer works.
Maybe you don't need a new program; but just apply a greater amount of patience to the one you're currently doing.
Or you could give Stronglifts a whirl for a month, and if you're unhappy with the result, go back to AllPro's. Or switch them off on a monthly basis. Nobody says you can't alternate 2 programs.
I'm so ADD I switch my program like every month, so consider the source of that advice. But hey, I'm still lifting and still pursuing that path to fitness 9 months after I started, and that's definitely saying something, given my track record in that department. :laugh:
You're right, AllPro is working for me. I just wish I was increasing weights at a faster pace, that's all. I measured myself yesterday and I didn't have near as good of results cycle two as I did cycle one, which was disappointing. Cycle 1 I lost like 8" or so and this cycle I only lost 3 1/2". (These are based on my poor memory) I guess that's probably normal though. I think I will stick with it for another round and then see, although I may sneak in a SL once or twice this month just to see how I like it... I was very disappointed to learn today that the SL app doesn't work well on the iPhone with iOS 7, which I got over the weekend. That was actually one thing making me want to try it out...I thought the app would be really convenient if I were to workout at Gold's.
And patience...that's something I need to work on...
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