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Won't Put Up With Any Bull?
JanieJack
Posts: 3,831 Member
I was talking to a friend who just entered a relationship and, when I congratulated her, told me she wished she was as smart as I was, that she'd probably have found a man long ago. I told her (without thinking about it) the being smart isn't a good thing when it comes to men, that I got a lot of dates and while I expected the "no sex anytime soon" to be what scared them off it was actually more often my education. Let me just break and say this is NOT a post about women having to dumb themselves down to get a man. That is NOT what I'm saying.
So my boyfriend, after hearing this, says to me "The problem with you is men know right away you're not gonna put up with any bull." I asked him to explain but he hemmed and hawed (which is my cue to drop it if it's not really that important to me) so I let it go and thought I'd ask you strangers on the internet.
What exactly does that MEAN? I'm guessing it means not putting up with 2am booty calls and such, but then most of the guys I went out with didn't seem to be that type. Most of them seemed like decent guys. So why would "not putting up with bull" run them off? Of course, I only had maybe 2-3 dates with them so I could be wrong. And I know enough women in decent relationships that I can't imagine that most guys are dating women who will "put up with bull."
What do you think?
So my boyfriend, after hearing this, says to me "The problem with you is men know right away you're not gonna put up with any bull." I asked him to explain but he hemmed and hawed (which is my cue to drop it if it's not really that important to me) so I let it go and thought I'd ask you strangers on the internet.
What exactly does that MEAN? I'm guessing it means not putting up with 2am booty calls and such, but then most of the guys I went out with didn't seem to be that type. Most of them seemed like decent guys. So why would "not putting up with bull" run them off? Of course, I only had maybe 2-3 dates with them so I could be wrong. And I know enough women in decent relationships that I can't imagine that most guys are dating women who will "put up with bull."
What do you think?
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It means you're not going to let a guy walk all over you.0
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Yeah, but why would that mean less repeat dates? People are jerks, sure, but not everyone's a jerk and searching for a woman who will let you walk all over them seems kinda jerky to me. Maybe some of the guys could PM me on this?
I guess I just don't like the implication that only women who let men walk over them get into relationships. We have plenty of strong women who I imagine wouldn't like that implication either.
Especially since those relationships are likely (IMHO) to be fulfilling anyhow0 -
Yeah, but why would that mean less repeat dates? People are jerks, sure, but not everyone's a jerk and searching for a woman who will let you walk all over them seems kinda jerky to me. Maybe some of the guys could PM me on this?
I guess I just don't like the implication that only women who let men walk over them get into relationships. We have plenty of strong women who I imagine wouldn't like that implication either.
Especially since those relationships are likely (IMHO) to be fulfilling anyhow
I think you're reading way to far into this.0 -
you're probably right. sigh. It's just irritating when people can't figure out what they're doing wrong dating-wise0
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Yeah, but why would that mean less repeat dates? People are jerks, sure, but not everyone's a jerk and searching for a woman who will let you walk all over them seems kinda jerky to me. Maybe some of the guys could PM me on this?
I guess I just don't like the implication that only women who let men walk over them get into relationships. We have plenty of strong women who I imagine wouldn't like that implication either.
Especially since those relationships are likely (IMHO) to be fulfilling anyhow
I think you're reading way to far into this.
^^ agree
A girl who doesn't put up with any bull, doesn't let someone take advantage of her, walk all over her, drop her boundaries to be liked by a man, etc.
She knows what she stands for and wants and won't accept less. This weeds out the jerks quicker, or makes her realize they are jerks and she walks away.
I doubt women who stand up for themselves get less dates or less relationships, although it may appear that way becuase they won't stay in an unhealthy one.0 -
you're probably right. sigh. It's just irritating when people can't figure out what they're doing wrong dating-wise
You have a boyfriend, yes?
I don't get why you think you're doing something wrong.0 -
I often hear people talk about their positive traits being the reason why they can't sustain a relationship. And usually, the not-sustaining is blamed on the other party for recognizing these traits.
That's called narcissism.
Intelligence is sexy. Confidence is sexy.
Look elsewhere.
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you're probably right. sigh. It's just irritating when people can't figure out what they're doing wrong dating-wise
You have a boyfriend, yes?
I don't get why you think you're doing something wrong.
I have a boyfriend (despite my many faults haha) but I really kinda stumbled into that relationship-I was just going out with everyone to get over the humiliation of being dumped very publicly and, knowing I would move soon, wasn't actually looking for a relationship. Just trying to prove to some guy (who no longer cared) that I wasn't worthless and ended up meeting one of the most patient guys I know (which is what someone intense like me needs i guess).
I've got a friend I'm mentoring who is a lot like me and I have nothing to give her on why she can't seem to get into a relationship. She followed my profile and picture advice, and gets lots of interest from what sounds like great guys. But never really makes it past a 2nd or 3rd date. My boyfriend's premise is that guys can tell she, like me, won't put up with bull and that's why.
Maybe I'm taking it personal because while she's struggling on the dating front I'm struggling with the same thing in friendships- I never really understand how I've irritated someone though I'm getting better at figuring out that I *have* irritated them. I'm the kind of person that tells a friend, "hey dude, that's really irritating me, would you stop?" But most people would rather drop kick you rather than give honest feedback.0 -
I often hear people talk about their positive traits being the reason why they can't sustain a relationship. And usually, the not-sustaining is blamed on the other party for recognizing these traits.
That's called narcissism.
I don't get it... are you saying that people who say "my intelligence" or "my XYZ positive trait" is what's driving men away are being narcissistic?
I’m not sure that’s always true: One episode of Millionaire Matchmaker they paired this guy with a woman who was perfect: gorgeous face, fit body, very active in community work, just an all-around great gal. The guy told Patty she was amazing and beautiful but he couldn't date her because he felt like a loser sitting next to Mother Theresa. What struck me is that Patty said to the audience a girl like her that’s too perfect will probably never find love because men want to feel like they are better. It stinks because really that was his issue and his problem, not hers. I would think (and I guess I would be wrong) that a man would be like “I’m totally awesome because this wonderful lady wants ME”0 -
I often hear people talk about their positive traits being the reason why they can't sustain a relationship. And usually, the not-sustaining is blamed on the other party for recognizing these traits.
That's called narcissism.
I don't get it... are you saying that people who say "my intelligence" or "my XYZ positive trait" is what's driving men away are being narcissistic?
I’m not sure that’s always true: One episode of Millionaire Matchmaker they paired this guy with a woman who was perfect: gorgeous face, fit body, very active in community work, just an all-around great gal. The guy told Patty she was amazing and beautiful but he couldn't date her because he felt like a loser sitting next to Mother Theresa. What struck me is that Patty said to the audience a girl like her that’s too perfect will probably never find love because men want to feel like they are better. It stinks because really that was his issue and his problem, not hers. I would think (and I guess I would be wrong) that a man would be like “I’m totally awesome because this wonderful lady wants ME”
That's exactly what I'm saying. If you make people feel uncomfortable trumpeting your awesomeness, they will probably leave. I don't think people are intimidated by awesome people, they are annoyed by people who are always insisting they are awesome.
Just my two cents.0 -
Yeah, I can see that.
The thing is, some people aren't trying to insist they're awesome... especially on a date. I'm going to get flamed for this by several of the stronger women I'm sure but I don't think guys find women's accomplishments particularly attractive. I think they care more about is she cute and is she into me. When I used to go on dates I tried to present myself as non-distinct as possible when it came to job, community, or other accomplishments. In other words, I wasn't a scientist. Instead, I did "admin work for the military." I wasn't a missions director and head trustee, I was someone who "volunteers regularly at my church."
See what I mean? And that's what I think this girl is doing too, because you actually do get more repeat dates that way.0 -
Yeah, I can see that.
The thing is, some people aren't trying to insist they're awesome... especially on a date. I'm going to get flamed for this by several of the stronger women I'm sure but I don't think guys find women's accomplishments particularly attractive. I think they care more about is she cute and is she into me. When I used to go on dates I tried to present myself as non-distinct as possible when it came to job, community, or other accomplishments. In other words, I wasn't a scientist. Instead, I did "admin work for the military." I wasn't a missions director and head trustee, I was someone who "volunteers regularly at my church."
See what I mean? And that's what I think this girl is doing too, because you actually do get more repeat dates that way.
I can understand this approach, as much as I dislike the apparent necessity of its' adoption. That said, though, what happens when you get to date 3/5/7 and it becomes clear that actually you are a scientist and a head trustee, and he then realises that you have deliberately mislead him? If he's so hung up on those things being 'threatening', surely he's just going to walk away at that point, and you've wasted more of your time on someone who finds who you are a problem?0 -
I might be mistaken but several months ago, didn't start a thread about what hearing a lot of people, especially men, saying that the thing they appreciated most about their gf/bf was that he/she wouldn't put up with their BS and would call them out on it?0
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My boyfriend's premise is that guys can tell she, like me, won't put up with bull and that's why.
Could be right, but she should be thankful that they moved on, becuase it means they were just going to use/abuse anyways.
The right guy will love that she won't put up with bull and it will be ok, becuase they won't have any bull to pull.
She will find him, she just needs time.0 -
I'm going to get flamed for this by several of the stronger women I'm sure but I don't think guys find women's accomplishments particularly attractive. I think they care more about is she cute and is she into me. When I used to go on dates I tried to present myself as non-distinct as possible when it came to job, community, or other accomplishments. In other words, I wasn't a scientist. Instead, I did "admin work for the military." I wasn't a missions director and head trustee, I was someone who "volunteers regularly at my church."
See what I mean? And that's what I think this girl is doing too, because you actually do get more repeat dates that way.
A few points:
1 - I disagree that men don't find women's "accomplishments" attractive. You have said this many times here in one form or another. I obviously cannot comment on your own experiences. It just strikes me as wrong that men think this way. On the other hand, I've never dated a man.
2 - Of course, it really depends on how we define accomplishments. But if we're talking about intelligence, success at work, success in life in general, I think you really underestimate men. Or perhaps your sample size is too low. Or there is sample bias for whatever reason (e.g. Military dating pool, which is more macho? Or living in Mississippi, which, let's face it, is not exactly a progressive state by any measure).
3 - In general I like women with titles, but I also like intelligent, confident women without titles. And in fact, the title only gives me clues as to the woman's probable intelligence and personality. But it's the underlying intelligence and personality that is key. Put another way, I like happy, fun, intelligent women. Period. If they happen to have a doctorate in chemistry, great. If they dropped out of high school to pursue an acting career and never looked back, fine by me, too. So long as they are intelligent, happy, social, etc.
4 - Point of clarification: are you really a scientist? I thought you studied nuclear engineering? I don't consider nuclear engineers scientists (disclosure, I have a degree in electrical engineering), unless you hold a doctorate in your discipline. Although perhaps you do hold a doctorate, then that explains it perfectly... :-) Or perhaps you don't have a doctorate but you can legitimately call yourself a scientist? If so, help me understand that. Not trolling, just trying to educate myself on who can claim to be a scientist.
5 - Saying you are in "admin" in the military, instead of a nuclear engineer or scientist, is just so shocking to me I'm practically speechless. Nothing against anyone in admin, obviously. But to represent yourself in this way - to downgrade your accomplishments so as not to frighten off a potential romantic interest - just seems so wrong to me on multiple levels. And it also seems as if you're setting yourself up for failure. You are pretending to be someone you are not, right from the beginning.
I get being humble, that's actually quite sexy. Saying, for example, you only speak a "bit" of French, but then wowing a date on a weekend trip to Paris with your fluency in the language. But this seems like something quite else entirely.
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I might be mistaken but several months ago, didn't start a thread about what hearing a lot of people, especially men, saying that the thing they appreciated most about their gf/bf was that he/she wouldn't put up with their BS and would call them out on it?
I don't have access to my list of threads, but I do remember being surprised by a guy at work who said this.Saying you are in "admin" in the military, instead of a nuclear engineer or scientist
Hey, don't put words in my mouth. Saying "I'm an admin" is lying, and I strive not to lie. Saying "I do admin work for the military" is a true statement. My guys do the lab work. I do the admin that enables their job. I suspect the distinction only seems lame to you because you've not witnessed time and again the eyes glaze over and automatic dismissal you get from someone who now is no longer interested in getting to know you simply because you answered when he asked what you do. Yet every time I've said "I do admin work" the guy has smiled and the convo will continue. There's enough reasons not to go out again (for example, they want kids and you don't) so I don't see why you should shoot yourself in the foot over something like a job. Give an easy, but true, answer and keep getting to know them.
I'm not as offended by this as I used to be because I've come to realize that I'm not really attracted to the type of guys who responded on Match when I listed my physics and engineering degrees. I got a more compatible crop of guys when I took that off. Also, the type of fun loving guy I like typically does not realize a girl with my education background could be a fun match. I remember when one of my MFP friends posted his Match.com profile and I told him with the degrees and such he didn't "present" as the awesome guy I've gotten to know through MFP. Whereas getting to know him from the forums I totally would have gone out with him. From that profile, he seemed stuffy and boring. That's when my eyes came open about my personal situation.
The right mate will embrace all that you are. My current boyfriend is proud of my career and proud of my writing but it's not something we talk about so it catches me off guard when I visit and his coworkers tell me how he filled their ears with xyz thing I just did. The thing with dating is first getting through stereotypes and misperceptions to where you can really get to know each other. It's easier to do this if we don't divulge our all our accomplishments and accolades on the first couple dates, just like we wouldn't divulge all our health problems and baggage.0 -
I'm with you on this (and do the same thing)....automatic dismissal you get from someone who now is no longer interested in getting to know you simply because you answered when he asked what you do. Yet every time I've said "I do admin work" the guy has smiled and the convo will continue. There's enough reasons not to go out again (for example, they want kids and you don't) so I don't see why you should shoot yourself in the foot over something like a job. Give an easy, but true, answer and keep getting to know them.
Plus when I'm out at a pub or restaurant, I can think about a million more interesting conversations than work (I'm talking about the first two or three dates or approaching someone on a night out, obviously not hiding the information forever).
I agree with this too.I told him with the degrees and such he didn't "present" as the awesome guy I've gotten to know through MFP. Whereas getting to know him from the forums I totally would have gone out with him. From that profile, he seemed stuffy and boring. That's when my eyes came open about my personal situation.
Having a job and a degree doesn't make you stand out from the crowd and is rather conventional to say the least.
This is not something you will be remembered for (unless your job title is "snake charmer").
Agree.It's easier to do this if we don't divulge our all our accomplishments and accolades on the first couple dates, just like we wouldn't divulge all our health problems and baggage.
A date is supposed to be light hearted and fun, leaving a good general impression, vibe - the elusive "connection" people talk about. A lot of things can be left for later dates, when you have generated enough attraction to get a second or third "rendez vous".0 -
Yeah, I can see that.
The thing is, some people aren't trying to insist they're awesome... especially on a date. I'm going to get flamed for this by several of the stronger women I'm sure but I don't think guys find women's accomplishments particularly attractive. I think they care more about is she cute and is she into me. When I used to go on dates I tried to present myself as non-distinct as possible when it came to job, community, or other accomplishments. In other words, I wasn't a scientist. Instead, I did "admin work for the military." I wasn't a missions director and head trustee, I was someone who "volunteers regularly at my church."
See what I mean? And that's what I think this girl is doing too, because you actually do get more repeat dates that way.
I don't think this has to do with GUYS not liking women's accomplishments. It's just about PEOPLE not wanting to hear someone toot their own horn on the first date. Same as I said above. Humbleness is also very attractive, so I agree with your strategy just not the one-sidedness of it.
I'm specifically into the current girl I'm into because of her accomplishments, as well as the normal cute/funny stuff.0 -
i think it's about how vulnerable you seem.
i run into this issue as well because i've had to be extremely independent and self-sufficient in my life. it's not so much about not being able to trust another person to be someone i can depend on emotionally/physically/financially/etc (although that might be part of it? )
from what i'm noticing, many men want to feel needed (not like in a overly dependent needy kind of way) but in a way that gives them the impression that they can add something to your life that you will be grateful for and you will find useful.
also in general i try not to talk about jobs and degrees or anything like that for the first few dates. i personally find that stuff pretty boring and me learning about what someone does for a living or what classes they took is going to do much in terms of building attraction0
This discussion has been closed.