deadlift form question
canadianlbs
Posts: 5,199 Member
i have a really noob deadlift question. but i keep trying to figure it out, reading stuff, watching form videos . . . and i just can't work out what the deal is. sorry i can't provide video, but i'll try to be as clear as i can.
once i've got my grip on the bar, there are only two basic angles in my body: slight bend in the knees, and a much sharper bend at the hips. my understanding is you want to keep your back as level as possible while keeping your chest up and open, so my back-to-floor angle isn't very steep.
so my question: during the first pull, for getting the bar off the floor and up past my knees, which of those two angles am i using for leverage? am i mostly just straightening my legs (which i think would make the hamstrings the principal drivers)? or am i also widening and straightening out the hip hinge at the same time, which i think brings the lower back into it a lot more? i had thought it was all in the legs to start with, and then you straighten the hip hinge during the second part until you're doing the hump-the-bar bit. but then i had someone tell me that the dl is basically a 'hip hinge' movement without a whole lot of knee involvement, so that threw me off once again.
i'm still waiting for my knees to settle down (bursitis), and when i get back i'm going to spend some time trying to find just the right weight where i can feel it enough to know what's going on, until i get my form settled internally. but this basic confusion keeps messing me up and making me inconsistent from one rep to the next. i'd appreciate any insights more experienced group members have to offer.
thanks.
once i've got my grip on the bar, there are only two basic angles in my body: slight bend in the knees, and a much sharper bend at the hips. my understanding is you want to keep your back as level as possible while keeping your chest up and open, so my back-to-floor angle isn't very steep.
so my question: during the first pull, for getting the bar off the floor and up past my knees, which of those two angles am i using for leverage? am i mostly just straightening my legs (which i think would make the hamstrings the principal drivers)? or am i also widening and straightening out the hip hinge at the same time, which i think brings the lower back into it a lot more? i had thought it was all in the legs to start with, and then you straighten the hip hinge during the second part until you're doing the hump-the-bar bit. but then i had someone tell me that the dl is basically a 'hip hinge' movement without a whole lot of knee involvement, so that threw me off once again.
i'm still waiting for my knees to settle down (bursitis), and when i get back i'm going to spend some time trying to find just the right weight where i can feel it enough to know what's going on, until i get my form settled internally. but this basic confusion keeps messing me up and making me inconsistent from one rep to the next. i'd appreciate any insights more experienced group members have to offer.
thanks.
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Replies
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When you set yourself up at the bar you want to lower your hips so that you feel your hamstrings and glute ingage, your back will be neutral but at an angle as your hips will be lower than your shoulders, your shoulders will be over the bar not forward of it. Chest and head forward as you pull the bar from the floor, then once its at your knees you drive your hips forward and the bar will travel the rest of the way with this action so you no longer need to be pulling up on the bar0
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Are you asking about how to get the bar off the ground in the first place before actually starting deadlifting? In that case, you want to bend your legs and back to lift it up. Then go into deadlift form for the first lift.0
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Btw, don't think of it as humping the bar. Just dragging it up your legs to thigh. I accidentally pulled back a bit at the top of a DL at 185 and got a twinge in my back that has persisted for 2 weeks and made me deload my squats by 35 pounds.0
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Are you asking about how to get the bar off the ground in the first place before actually starting deadlifting? In that case, you want to bend your legs and back to lift it up. Then go into deadlift form for the first lift.
well, now that's a new curveball i hadn't thought of. my definition of deadlift has always been that it *starts* on the floor. unless you're thinking of romanian deadlifts?
assuming we are talking about starting the lift right from the floor, i'm just asking whether i should straighten only my knees while bringing the bar up for the first part, or do a simultaneous combination of straightening my knees and my hips at the same time. i've got the lockout part above the knees down okay, i think. it's just the section of the lift that comes before the lockout.0 -
Btw, don't think of it as humping the bar. Just dragging it up your legs to thigh. I accidentally pulled back a bit at the top of a DL at 185 and got a twinge in my back that has persisted for 2 weeks and made me deload my squats by 35 pounds.
yike. i'll keep that in mind, thanks. it's just the phrase that got used the last time i was around someone else talking about it, but i do have this tendency to take things very literally unless otherwise warned.0 -
Yup, to recap what,s been said:
- shoulders over the bar
- back neutral, all the way to the head (don't look up, but don't look down either.)
- knees slightly bent, hips hinged back a bit
- Shoulder blades retracted and tight
The cues that really helped me get this down were to
1- Pull the bar back towards your shins (but don't hit them!) as your body lifts up. In other words: don't let your hips shoot up first - it should all come together at once, really (if your knees are straight and you're still quite bent over, your hips went too fast)
2- Instead of thinking about pulling the bar "up", think of it as sinking your heels into the floor as much as possible. This helps you keep your glutes flexed, and that will protect your lower back some I believe
Also, don't bend your arms!
Maybe this could help you? The guy is usually pretty clear in his instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8bDeB7UPFo&index=4&list=PLh6yhljKWsN8iB4dy_-3AtuNztwXjVxzp
Don't worry too much about re-racking the weight just yet. Make sure your hooks are just above knee height and you can just walk the bar in when you're done with your last set and can't take the rest of the plates off.0 -
Are you asking about how to get the bar off the ground in the first place before actually starting deadlifting? In that case, you want to bend your legs and back to lift it up. Then go into deadlift form for the first lift.
well, now that's a new curveball i hadn't thought of. my definition of deadlift has always been that it *starts* on the floor. unless you're thinking of romanian deadlifts?
assuming we are talking about starting the lift right from the floor, i'm just asking whether i should straighten only my knees while bringing the bar up for the first part, or do a simultaneous combination of straightening my knees and my hips at the same time. i've got the lockout part above the knees down okay, i think. it's just the section of the lift that comes before the lockout.
Sorry - I do the straight leg deadlift and wasn't really thinking about anything else. My lifting with that starts with the barbell in the air and ends in the air (standing up straight).0 -
OP - You're overthinking this.
Read this...
The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time
1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.
2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.
5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.
Once you're in the proper position, you don't drop your butt -- you lift your chest. Don't lower the hips after you touch the bar with your shins.
Watch This...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syt7A23YnpA 0 -
thank you, i've seen it and i'm really relieved to see others consider it worth seeing too. i'm using rippetoe as my go-to for just about everything, but i don't hear anything in there specifically about knees-then-hips, or other way round. it sounds like maybe you're saying that so long as i keep my chest up and the bar close to my legs, it's not going to matter? i can try that and see if it settles my mind any. but somehow i still feel . . .
off topic:overthinking
sigh. i hear you. i've heard everyone who ever said the same thing, and there's been a whole bunch of them
but here's my problem: in my mind there are two possible options. only one can be right, so two is 'overthinking' for sure. i need to throw one of them out. or maybe neither one is right, it doesn't matter and the question itself is not even relevant?
the problem is this: i honestly don't know which one of those choices is true. if it were something more trivial than my own back, i'd just experiment until i found my own answers. but in this case i'd prefer not to get hurt and then find myself being scolded for lifting without getting educated about the form first (not you guys. i'm just sayin'. it's a pattern that gets kind of demoralizing for us overthink types).
so i'm asking in order to try and find out. thanks though. i'm probably just being obtuse in some way that hasn't come to me yet.0 -
thank you, i've seen it and i'm really relieved to see others consider it worth seeing too. i'm using rippetoe as my go-to for just about everything, but i don't hear anything in there specifically about knees-then-hips, or other way round. it sounds like maybe you're saying that so long as i keep my chest up and the bar close to my legs, it's not going to matter? i can try that and see if it settles my mind any. but somehow i still feel . . .
I have never really thought about which goes first - knees or hips. What I do think about before lifting the bar off the floor is having a "big chest" (which puts my back in extension i.e. not rounding), using my legs to lift the bar, and using my lats to keep the bar as close to my body as I can (the bar literally touches my legs the whole way up).sigh. i hear you. i've heard everyone who ever said the same thing, and there's been a whole bunch of them but here's my problem: in my mind there are two possible options. only one can be right, so two is 'overthinking' for sure. i need to throw one of them out. or maybe neither one is right, it doesn't matter and the question itself is not even relevant?
the problem is this: i honestly don't know which one of those choices is true. if it were something more trivial than my own back, i'd just experiment until i found my own answers. but in this case i'd prefer not to get hurt and then find myself being scolded for lifting without getting educated about the form first (not you guys. i'm just sayin'. it's a pattern that gets kind of demoralizing for us overthink types).
so i'm asking in order to try and find out. thanks though. i'm probably just being obtuse in some way that hasn't come to me yet.
It is a good thing that you care about your form. No one wants a back injury or any other kind of injury. I overthink things too My advice would be to be very deliberate with your setup, meaning, you do exactly the same thing every time you step up to that bar. Record yourself every time. As long as you keep your chest up, back in extension, barbell close to your body, and aren't lifting a ridiculous amount of weight that you're not ready to handle, you should have nothing to worry about as far as a back injury goes. 0 -
Hmmm...going into workout B tomorrow for the first time and this is the exercise I'm scared of most due to having low back issues. I'm going to start lighter than I think I should to ensure proper form. My question (not to hijack) is what's the deal with the grip? Why in some videos do they grip the bar overhand with one and under with the other hand, and others it's overhand only?0
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My question (not to hijack) is what's the deal with the grip? Why in some videos do they grip the bar overhand with one and under with the other hand, and others it's overhand only?
The "overhand with one and under with the other hand" is called a mixed grip. Most people will go to a mixed grip when the weight becomes heavier than what they can grip. So basically, a mixed grip is a much stronger grip. IMO you should use an overhand grip as much as you can to build up your grip strength. Personally, I do overhand grip for all my warm ups then do my working set with a mixed grip.0 -
Hey thanks!
With the mixed grip, is it better to have your dominate hand under because it's stronger or over as to balance things out?0 -
Hey thanks!
With the mixed grip, is it better to have your dominate hand under because it's stronger or over as to balance things out?
Totally personal preference but most people will pronate (palm facing down or "over" the bar) their stronger hand e.g. the one they write with.0 -
Just curious if you are wearing a weight lifting belt?, I won't deadlift without mine, one time I forgot to put it on and after the first deadlift I realized cause I felt it in my lower back (but thankfully no injuries). I do think the belt also helps with form.Are you asking about how to get the bar off the ground in the first place before actually starting deadlifting? In that case, you want to bend your legs and back to lift it up. Then go into deadlift form for the first lift.
well, now that's a new curveball i hadn't thought of. my definition of deadlift has always been that it *starts* on the floor. unless you're thinking of romanian deadlifts?
assuming we are talking about starting the lift right from the floor, i'm just asking whether i should straighten only my knees while bringing the bar up for the first part, or do a simultaneous combination of straightening my knees and my hips at the same time. i've got the lockout part above the knees down okay, i think. it's just the section of the lift that comes before the lockout.0 -
StrongLifts instructions say palms towards you, have you read the instructions? Here: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/ then click on the exercise under Must Read bottom right, there are step by steps for each one.Hey thanks!
With the mixed grip, is it better to have your dominate hand under because it's stronger or over as to balance things out?
Totally personal preference but most people will pronate (palm facing down or "over" the bar) their stronger hand e.g. the one they write with.0 -
Another deadlift inquiry: I will likely try with just the 45lb bar for my first time to work on form and see how that feels. If it turns out that's enough weight to start, is it okay to elevate it somehow (maybe rest on a couple of step platforms) to raise it to the height that it would be with plates on it? (What, maybe 6-8"?)0
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Re: Deadlift height. Elevating it on a couple step platforms would be fine. Or try 10lb bumper plates if your gym has them. For many women 65lbs is fairly manageable even those new to lifting. If not that's fine too.
Re: Grip. It's always a good idea to start with a double overhand grip, but eventually your grip will fail that way. That's also why you want to start with a double overhand grip- so you can build grip strength. When it does fail you can add chalk and/or mixed grip, hook grip, mixed hook grip, or straps. If you're lifting for strength then you would want to have your dominate hand pronated, and your non-dominant supinated as this allows you to lift the most weight.
Re: Belt. They are definitely useful for lifting more weight, but I don't know that they're required. I bruised a rib, and couldn't wear mine a while back and still deadlifted fine (albiet less than normal) without it.
Re: bar humping. After it gets to my knees I pretend I'm pegging it.. Hard. YMMV
Re; What Krok and Leadfoot said. Pretty much this.
Re: overthinking. As long as you keep your chest up it wont matter. This is exactly correct. If your hips shoot up first (I have a friend guilty of this, but he pulls a crap ton), then your chest is no longer up. Also filming always helps. It's one of the reasons I bought blue tooth headphones!
Whew. I think I'm through the thread now =D0 -
Over/under grip for the weights when it becomes an issue of holding onto the bar vs pulling that weight off the floor. For me, that was around the 155# mark. Use aids- in my case straps- when it felt like the bar was going to pull your fingers off the palms even with the over/under grip. That was between 185# and 200#, depending on the day and my arthritis. My gym doesn't permit chalk, so only choice was straps. With the straps, my personal best was 220#. (now sadly far away from that d/t a hamstring injury at the end of May....)
The best description I have heard of proper deadlift form was "push the ground away from your feet" vs thinking about hauling that weight off the ground. Don't know why, but that image works for me. <shrugs>0 -
Just curious if you are wearing a weight lifting belt?, I won't deadlift without mine, one time I forgot to put it on and after the first deadlift I realized cause I felt it in my lower back (but thankfully no injuries). I do think the belt also helps with form.
no belt atm as i'd like to be sure i'm making a way of life out of this before i go picking up paraphernalia. i'll usually be lifting on my way home from work, and it gets to be just one more thing that has to be toted all day, along with the various bike gear, so eh. and i'm not really in a rush about pushing the amount of weight that i'm lifting just yet. but i'll keep it in mind definitely, when i get to a point where neither of those factors is true anymore. first, i just want to figure out some of the stuff anybody should know, even if they're just lifting a broomstick on their own back deck.
i think i'm getting my answer, just in a different form/from a different perspective from the ways i phrased it. hips up = knees straight. unless there's more to human anatomy than i know about. in other words, legs do not straighten out 'first', i.e. they should not straighten out faster than the hip hinge (opening the hip hinge lifts the shoulders). see, this is why i asked. because someone told me they should and it did seem like a conflict with some of the other info. but then now that i know enough to realise there's deadlifts and deadlifts, that person's demo vid might have been more of a deadlift squat than a straight-leg. i believe his knees were out past his arms once he had his grip.
as far as just taking care of it all by lifting my chest . . . hmmn, well. could be. i've just realised that lifting my chest more or less forces me to deepen the knee bend and drop my hips, or i lose the nice level back. it hyper-extends otherwise. it never occurred to me that you need the knee bend. most of the stuff that i've seen leaves you with the impression it's mostly a function of how stiff your hips are. mine ain't, so i hadn't factored that in.
i can't take videos. it's not permitted in the only place where i do my lifting, and i don't do cell phones anyway. thanks again for all the input.0 -
]StrongLifts instructions say palms towards you, have you read the instructions? Here: http://stronglifts.com/5x5/ then click on the exercise under Must Read bottom right, there are step by steps for each one.
Did YOU read my response/s?
The "overhand with one and under with the other hand" is called a mixed grip. Most people will go to a mixed grip when the weight becomes heavier than what they can grip. So basically, a mixed grip is a much stronger grip. IMO you should use an overhand grip as much as you can to build up your grip strength. Personally, I do overhand grip for all my warm ups then do my working set with a mixed grip.
My response is in agreement with Mark Rippetoe/Starting Strength. Mehdi is a Rippetoe rip-off and I could quite frankly care less what is written on his website.0 -
no belt atm as i'd like to be sure i'm making a way of life out of this before i go picking up paraphernalia. i'll usually be lifting on my way home from work, and it gets to be just one more thing that has to be toted all day, along with the various bike gear, so eh. and i'm not really in a rush about pushing the amount of weight that i'm lifting just yet. but i'll keep it in mind definitely, when i get to a point where neither of those factors is true anymore. first, i just want to figure out some of the stuff anybody should know, even if they're just lifting a broomstick on their own back deck.
Belts are not necessary IMO until you start lifting heavy (1.25x your bodyweight), and even then it's a personal preference. Belts do not help with form nor will they prevent a back injury. What they will do is help with intra-abdominal pressure which helps protect your back. If you don't use them properly they're worthless. How you use them properly is before you lift the bar off the floor you take a big breath in a way that fills your stomach with air - that air + your stomach pushing against the belt is the intra abdominal pressure that I referred to earlier that will help protect your back.0 -
Deadlifts took a long time for me to get because we just do so many fewer of them.
The instructions that were posted I ended up putting on my phone and looking at before practically every lift for awhile.
Now I have the following mantra in my head "Engage, dig in with your heels then push with your hips." A powerlifting coach who was helping me with my form said, to correct my particular issue (upper back pain, YMMV) that I should think of it as a heel-lift to the knees and then a hip and butt push from there. Pegging the bar, yeah.
Also try doing more reps with lighter weight. I know the SL guide says we should be warmed up enough by the time we're done with OHP, but I like to do a bunch of warm-up sets to get my form right.
I switch to mixed grip only for my workout weight, which is well over 200 pounds.0
