Debunking 5/3/1
Sam_I_Am77
Posts: 2,093 Member
Does anybody still follow this group? I see a lot of non-sense related to 5/3/1 and "slow" progression "not for beginners" posted on this website and I'd like to see this group active so we can talk through the bull**** for people that are serous about it.
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I still follow it. I'm not the most advanced of lifters, but I've been running 5/3/1 for quite a while now so I'm up for some discussion. Hopefully some activity will pull others out of the woodwork.0
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Awesome, let's start then. I don't normally re-post stuff that Jim puts on his website but this is worth re-posting and I don't think he'd have an issue with it. In reference to "beginner" programs.
It has been awhile that the original 5/3/1 for Beginners post was made on the JimWendler.com website. In the last year, I tweaked it slightly and wanted to put in a total program for people that really want to be strong and awesome. I am a firm believer that the lifting culture today sucks for one big reason - the lack of athleticism that is promoted by programming. If you want to be strong and fast (and what lifter doesn't want that?) then you MUST expand your horizons past the bodybuilding-style of training (or just really strange programming) that passes itself off as "strength training".
I answer a ton of questions everyday about the 5/3/1 program for beginners and I think that I need to address some of the questions and answer them truthfully. And in doing so, I need to look back on my own training history and the training of other training partners that I trained with at the time. So I smoked a huge pipe of peyote, took a trip back when I had no chest hair and came up with the following recommendations for any beginner that wants to build a proper base for a lifetime of strength. Read that last part of that sentence again (not the part about the peyote) - "build a proper base for a lifetime of strength." If this interests you, read on.
First, let's address some of the common mythology of training that has made it's rounds on the internet today.
1. Beginner Gains - probably the biggest myth today is that there is some kind of timeline for new lifters to make gains. People refer to this as "newbie gains" and it is an appalling term; it sounds like baby talk. There is no timeline for how long a beginner can make gains. We all know that beginners can make great gains because of several reasons: introduction to a new stimulus (training), improved coordination of the lifts and the fact that many beginners are in their prime for growth (hormones). Unfortunately, what few people realize is that while there may be an initial set of gains to be made, many of the lifts especially the upper body lifts, make their greatest progress after 10+ of training. Lifters need to let their bodies mature to handle some of the bigger weights. But there isn't a timeline for a beginner to make gains; it's not 6 months or 1 year. What a beginner must do is learn to properly do the lifts and to consistently use a program that allows him to make gains. You don't need to rush to make gains; all this will do is leave you, the beginner, with stalled lifts with neither the mind or body to make an intelligent decision on how to break through a plateau.
2. You Have to Squat 3 Times/Week (aka The Lifts are Complex) - The squat, bench press, press and deadlift are not complex lifts, or rather they should not be complex lifts. I have coached thousands of athletes and can name only very few who couldn't pick up these movements in a short amount of time. The bench press can't be any simpler - you lie on the bench and press a barbell. The squat is something you do every single day of your life, as is the deadlift. The press is also not a brain-buster. So why are these lifts considered so technical to so many? I believe it to be for two reasons: One, you are told to believe that they are. Two, because the beginner lacks the coordination, mental strength and body awareness to perform these tasks.
People want to spend way too much time in the weight room - time that would be much better spent on other things that will help a lifter. These things include running, sprinting, jumping, throwing, agility work, mobility, sporting movements, flexibility. All of these things will make you BETTER IN THE LONG RUN. And help the lifter become more coordinated, more explosive and have better body awareness. Which brings me to the third point...0 -
The argument against 5/3/1 I like the most I think is the whole StrongLifts is faster progression than 5/3/1.
#noobgainz
#phatgainz
#feeldaburn
:noway:
Keep in mind that as I say this, I'm supportive of any well-structured program or system that somebody is willing to embrace and dedicate to using. I just hate, when something is misrepresented with bull**** "factoids." With SL5x5 you start with the friggin' bar for each lift. If a semi-healthy person can't even squat their own body weight for one rep then there's a serious freakin' problem. Using just the bar to work on form is fine, but aside from that why start with the bar and progress from there? Let's take a healthy 135lb woman and assume she can squat her bodyweight once, 135lb 1RM or a 120lb training max (TM).
Comparing SL5x5 and Jim's "5's Pro" template it would look like this:
- 5's Pro (good for "beginners") w/ First Set Last (FSL)
wk1: warm-up sets / 80 x 5 / 90 x 5 / 100 x 5 / *115 x 5 / *125 x 5 / FSL 80 x 3-5 x 5-8 (the * sets would be optional depending on how they feel)
wk2: wu sets / 85 x 5 / 95 x 5 / 110 x 5 / *120 x 5 / FSL 85 x 3-5 x 5-8
wk3: wu sets / 90 x 5 / 100 x 5 / 115 x 5 / *125 x 5 / FSL 90 x 3-5 x 5-8
- SL 5 x 5
wk1: 45 x 5 & 50 x 5
wk2: 55 x 5 & 60 x 5
wk3: 65 x 5 & 70 x 5
At that rate it takes approximately 8 weeks for SL5x5 to catch-up to the number of plates on the bar. However, the 5's Pro template allows beginners to push for heavier sets of 5 if they feel up to it, and includes more volume with the FSL. The volume and load of 5/3/1's 5's Pro template is far superior to SL5x5. With 5/3/1 there are programmed deloads to give your body a break. Mehdi recommends at least 12 weeks for SL5x5 and it seems that it's not uncommon (not for everybody) to stall at that point. After 10 weeks with 5's Pro, it's not unreasonable for somebody that is stalling or about to stall on week 3 to switch to traditional 5/3/1 with FSL which lowers the rep requirements a little and allows the lifter to shoot for rep PR's.
Although SL5x5 "plate load" exceeds 5/3/1 by week 12, the 5/3/1 user has been working with heavier loads and volumes for a longer period of time than the SL5x5 user. Do you really think the SL5x5 user is going to be stronger after 12 weeks?0 -
I don't have much experience with women and strength training, but its pretty rare that I see one squatting > 135, to the point that if I do see that, I assume she's been at it for a while.
That said, I think at some point 90% of the "talking" about what produces maximal gains is just semantics.
99% of the threads that are started with "I want to start lifting heavy, what should I do?" are coming from the standpoint of a completely untrained individual. For that person, stepping under a bar with 135 lbs on it is so far out of their comfort zone of what they think they can do that it might just put them off of training altogether. The bar is a much "safer" sounding program.
That said, the new lifter will make progress with just about any program they use. Sure, some programs will be "more ideal" than others, but at the end of the day whether you start with 531 or stronglifts, 18 months from now you'll be in a pretty similar place.
Same goes for recommended rep ranges, etc.0 -
I don't have much experience with women and strength training, but its pretty rare that I see one squatting > 135, to the point that if I do see that, I assume she's been at it for a while.
That said, I think at some point 90% of the "talking" about what produces maximal gains is just semantics.
99% of the threads that are started with "I want to start lifting heavy, what should I do?" are coming from the standpoint of a completely untrained individual. For that person, stepping under a bar with 135 lbs on it is so far out of their comfort zone of what they think they can do that it might just put them off of training altogether. The bar is a much "safer" sounding program.
That said, the new lifter will make progress with just about any program they use. Sure, some programs will be "more ideal" than others, but at the end of the day whether you start with 531 or stronglifts, 18 months from now you'll be in a pretty similar place.
Same goes for recommended rep ranges, etc.
It's one thing to start with the bar to practice and get a handle on the form, it's another thing to just flat-out start with the bar. For most people the bar isn't even challenging, at least not on the squat. Honestly, if I was going to take some time to teach form; it could be easily done in an hour starting with a PVC pipe or broomstick and advancing to a bar; this is not rocket science. They won't be experts, but they'll have enough of a handle on it to start exercising. There are seminars held for this stuff all the time.
I used 135 as an example 1RM, whatever the 1RM might actually be is of course what you would use. If a person's 1RM is lower than that, then it's lower and the're nothing wrong with that. But that person will stall just as quickly on SL5x5. My wife was pretty out of shape a few months back and she got back into the gym. After a few weeks of squatting light weights, like the first 5's and 3's week, she hit 150 for a single as a Joker set on the 1's week, and she's not an experienced lifter. I think people tend to baby themselves despite wanting to work hard.0 -
I don't have much experience with women and strength training, but its pretty rare that I see one squatting > 135, to the point that if I do see that, I assume she's been at it for a while.
That said, I think at some point 90% of the "talking" about what produces maximal gains is just semantics.
99% of the threads that are started with "I want to start lifting heavy, what should I do?" are coming from the standpoint of a completely untrained individual. For that person, stepping under a bar with 135 lbs on it is so far out of their comfort zone of what they think they can do that it might just put them off of training altogether. The bar is a much "safer" sounding program.
That said, the new lifter will make progress with just about any program they use. Sure, some programs will be "more ideal" than others, but at the end of the day whether you start with 531 or stronglifts, 18 months from now you'll be in a pretty similar place.
Same goes for recommended rep ranges, etc.
It's one thing to start with the bar to practice and get a handle on the form, it's another thing to just flat-out start with the bar. For most people the bar isn't even challenging, at least not on the squat. Honestly, if I was going to take some time to teach form; it could be easily done in an hour starting with a PVC pipe or broomstick and advancing to a bar; this is not rocket science. They won't be experts, but they'll have enough of a handle on it to start exercising. There are seminars held for this stuff all the time.
I used 135 as an example 1RM, whatever the 1RM might actually be is of course what you would use. If a person's 1RM is lower than that, then it's lower and the're nothing wrong with that. But that person will stall just as quickly on SL5x5. My wife was pretty out of shape a few months back and she got back into the gym. After a few weeks of squatting light weights, like the first 5's and 3's week, she hit 150 for a single as a Joker set on the 1's week, and she's not an experienced lifter. I think people tend to baby themselves despite wanting to work hard.
Starting strength (imo) has a much more intelligent starting point. Rippetoe says to start your first workout on the program with 1 set using just the bar, and add 10 lbs for the next set... do that until you feel like its slower to complete a rep at that weight, and that's the weight you start it. Not super scientific, but its easy enough that everyone understands it and knows how it works. I don't think I stalled out any faster doing that than I would have starting with just the bar, and this way kept me from wasting a couple months of lifting stuff that was really too light to accomplish anything.
re: people wanting to baby themselves, I don't get that either. I'll see men and women both at the gym, week after week doing the exact same routine at the same weights they used 3 months ago. I suppose doing that is better than nothing, but its not really great either. For some reason people are scared of heavy weights. At some level, I get it. When I step under the bar for a new PR squat, its a little scary knowing I've never had that much weight on my back before. But at the same time I know that the week before I did 6 reps with 30 lbs lighter than that so I should be able to handle this.
I think at least some part of people babying themselves is that they just don't want to lift heavy. At least once a day on the forums there's a thread about "I want to start strength training, I have 3 and 5 lb dumbells, what moves should I do?" Inevitably the people who lift give them good advice that they don't want to hear, while someone else tells them to hold the dumbells while they do the 30 day shred video and they'll be strong in no time. Guess which advice is taken?
It probably doesn't help when essentially none of the personal trainers at the big box gyms know how to lift with a bar either. A guy at my gym (who trained my wife for a while) and is probably the best strength trainer they have was squatting in the rack next to me one day (first time I'd ever seen him squat) and he was doing quarter squats. No wonder the general public doesn't have a clue about strength training, the people they look to for teaching don't know anything either.0 -
Starting strength (imo) has a much more intelligent starting point. Rippetoe says to start your first workout on the program with 1 set using just the bar, and add 10 lbs for the next set... do that until you feel like its slower to complete a rep at that weight, and that's the weight you start it. Not super scientific, but its easy enough that everyone understands it and knows how it works. I don't think I stalled out any faster doing that than I would have starting with just the bar, and this way kept me from wasting a couple months of lifting stuff that was really too light to accomplish anything.
re: people wanting to baby themselves, I don't get that either. I'll see men and women both at the gym, week after week doing the exact same routine at the same weights they used 3 months ago. I suppose doing that is better than nothing, but its not really great either. For some reason people are scared of heavy weights. At some level, I get it. When I step under the bar for a new PR squat, its a little scary knowing I've never had that much weight on my back before. But at the same time I know that the week before I did 6 reps with 30 lbs lighter than that so I should be able to handle this.
I think at least some part of people babying themselves is that they just don't want to lift heavy. At least once a day on the forums there's a thread about "I want to start strength training, I have 3 and 5 lb dumbells, what moves should I do?" Inevitably the people who lift give them good advice that they don't want to hear, while someone else tells them to hold the dumbells while they do the 30 day shred video and they'll be strong in no time. Guess which advice is taken?
It probably doesn't help when essentially none of the personal trainers at the big box gyms know how to lift with a bar either. A guy at my gym (who trained my wife for a while) and is probably the best strength trainer they have was squatting in the rack next to me one day (first time I'd ever seen him squat) and he was doing quarter squats. No wonder the general public doesn't have a clue about strength training, the people they look to for teaching don't know anything either.
I'm all about starting my warm-ups with the bar like Ripp suggests but my preference, if I were training somebody, would be to start my worksets with an appropriate load. If that appropriate load is the bar, then so be it. My fault is that I'm about training for performance and athletic performance, so there's usually only a short window of time to train for that so maximize time. The thing is, in this day and age people are so impatient that you'd think they'd rather start with a light load than just the bar. But I guess the bar plus more plates each session is more desired. The other fault I have is that I think long-term and 5/3/1 is a training principle for long-term success. SL5x5 is short-term and I see no point in wasting time on the short-term if the long-term plan incorporates the short-term.
Most public gym trainers are awful, hands down. The head trainer at my gym is a nice guy but his training (of himself) is bad and his client's training isn't great either.0 -
I've never really thought about it from the standpoint of training someone else, but just from an individual working alone. If you're training other people, I think 5/3/1 would have even more of an advantage over a 5x5 type program since it builds in the teaching of "what to do" when you plateau. Of course, the downside is that you're to some extent teaching yourself out of a client by doing that, but I think that kind of thinking mainly comes from the trainers who are going to have clients on a chest press machine anyway, and not those who are actually interested in improving someone's performance.0
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I've never really thought about it from the standpoint of training someone else, but just from an individual working alone. If you're training other people, I think 5/3/1 would have even more of an advantage over a 5x5 type program since it builds in the teaching of "what to do" when you plateau. Of course, the downside is that you're to some extent teaching yourself out of a client by doing that, but I think that kind of thinking mainly comes from the trainers who are going to have clients on a chest press machine anyway, and not those who are actually interested in improving someone's performance.
Yes and no. A good strength & conditioning coach will be evaluating a client or athlete on person to person basis. While the general principles will remain the same, there might be some variations in work done. Good S&C's will never be out of a job.
If you haven't grabbed a copy of Beyond 5/3/1 you should, there is so much good stuff in there. His website just adds to it, amazing.0 -
If you haven't grabbed a copy of Beyond 5/3/1 you should, there is so much good stuff in there. His website just adds to it, amazing.
This!! I love the first set last!0 -
If you haven't grabbed a copy of Beyond 5/3/1 you should, there is so much good stuff in there. His website just adds to it, amazing.
This!! I love the first set last!
First set last and Joker sets were a great addition. You should join Jim's site, so much good info there.0 -
I'm not afraid to say it...I'm scared of the Joker sets. I still need to walk! HA! What is his website? Are you talking about www.jimwendler.com?0
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I'm not afraid to say it...I'm scared of the Joker sets. I still need to walk! HA! What is his website? Are you talking about www.jimwendler.com?
Well, if you're using a good TM% then you should be fine; it's not as bad as it seems. Although I will say that if you push the PR set hard, the Joker sets are much harder. Yes, it's just the jimwendler.com. It's been so educational, I can even begin to describe. You really get an even better feel for what Jim is all-about on that site, he is very much an athlete.0
