Macro ratios

UsedToBeHusky
UsedToBeHusky Posts: 15,228 Member
I came here because I'm not really getting the answers that I need.

I have PCOS and endometriosis. I have been losing weight for three years with typical diet/lifestyle changes that everyone already recommends to PCOS sufferers. I have hit a wall in weight loss.

The doc has put me on Metform (500 mg twice daily) and Aldactone. I lost a little at first, but I'm still struggling. I need to know what more to do.

My macro ratios were set at 40% carb, 30% protein, 30% fat for a very long time while I was losing weight and I found it pretty manageable. When I got the diagnosis, I switched them to 30% carb, 40% protein, 30% fat and found it nearly impossible. I find myself screwing up and going up to 50% carb every day in spite of myself.

What do you kind folks recommend for macro ratios? And what foods can I eat to obtain it?

Replies

  • Lizabelle1212
    Lizabelle1212 Posts: 252 Member
    I would recommend increasing your fat % - from what I've read, the best diet for PCOS sufferers is lower carb, moderate protein, and high fat (healthy fat, obviously). I currently have my macros set at 25% carbs, 25% protein and 50% fat. You can play around with yours to find the ratio that works best for you, but I wouldn't recommend going above 25% carbs. Increasing your fat intake will help you feel full & satiated, which seems to help with craving carbs (for me, anyway). In general, I think it is recommended not to go above 100 g of carbs per day if you have PCOS. Healthy fats can come from peanut butter, avocado, eggs (the WHOLE egg including the yolk), full fat dairy (although you should eat dairy sparingly), full fat cuts of meat (grass fed beef is recommended), nuts like almonds or pistachios, full fat regular butter, olive oil (I cook everything in either butter or olive oil), and full fat salad dressings. Here is a link to an article I found really helpful, hopefully it will help you too: http://holisticsquid.com/the-best-diet-for-pcos/
  • smedynski
    smedynski Posts: 20
    I keep my macros around 10% carbs (veggies only, no starches/grains or fruit), 30% protein and 60% fat. I was having great success at 5% carbs, 25% protein and 70% fat but after I joined a boot camp I needed to up my carb and protein intake to help with workout recovery.

    Everyone is different play with your macros, try a setting for a week and see what happens.

    Weight-loss can be a slow process, especially for women with PCOS.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    Wow...30% is not enough carbs! No wonder you go over it. Read "the New Glucose Revolution's Low Gi Guide to Living Well with PCOS". Please!! It will change your life for the better. It is not the amount of carbs you are eating that is the issue, it is the type of carbs that matter. 100 carbs of starch vegetables, and white flour products is not equal to 100 cabrs of fruits, veggies, legumes and whole grains. I eat 45% carbs (or aim to) everyday, I never feel deprive with a need to binge, and I am steadily loosing PCOS related weight.

    It really is about eating the right Low GI foods that will not spike blood sugar and result in more insulin production. Read the book...you won't be sorry!
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    ^^^^^This recommendation goes for all of you! I cannot believe any of you can be happy/healthy eating that little amount of carbs and that high amount of fat! Good fats are great for you, but in such large amounts you are likely damaging a lot organs, and carbs are the only nutrient that is available for use by your brain! Less than 30% of your day from carbs no only reduces energy but leaves your brain with no nutrition. You probably get a foggy feeling in the afternoon/evening, or cant remember certain things, can't perform memory, comprehension, "tasks" as well. That is scary. Up your carbs for the love of god, but make it the right carbs. Carbs are fine for women with PCOS as long as it is proper ones for the diagnosis!
  • Alliwan
    Alliwan Posts: 1,245 Member
    ^^^^^This recommendation goes for all of you! I cannot believe any of you can be happy/healthy eating that little amount of carbs and that high amount of fat! Good fats are great for you, but in such large amounts you are likely damaging a lot organs, and carbs are the only nutrient that is available for use by your brain! Less than 30% of your day from carbs no only reduces energy but leaves your brain with no nutrition. You probably get a foggy feeling in the afternoon/evening, or cant remember certain things, can't perform memory, comprehension, "tasks" as well. That is scary. Up your carbs for the love of god, but make it the right carbs. Carbs are fine for women with PCOS as long as it is proper ones for the diagnosis!

    That's a blanket statement that isn't accurate. What works for you might work for others and it might not. Fats do not damage organs, low carbs doesn't damage your body when done right. Your brain can use fats to function just like it can use carbs. Please do more research from actual scientific studies before you slap a bunch of us in the face telling us we are doing it wrong when its the only way that's worked for some of us. Your post was rather hurtful and unnecessary and inaccurate as a whole.

    Many pcos people and low carb dieters have had vastly improved health by doing low carb and you don't get carvings if you eat the right amount of fats. But low carb might not work for some people where a low GI diet might, even if their blood sugar isn't affected. Low carb might work for some people where low GI doesn't. Its all about finding the path that works for you!
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    Your brain cannot use fats. I am speaking to you as a nutition professional. Eating as low as 10% of your daily nutrition from carbs is damaging your body whether you believe it or not. Ask any dietitian. Not one would ever recommend that unless you were morbidly obese and preparing for surgery! That is the only time I have ever recommended that to a patient!

    I can point to you thousands of research studies that prove exactly what I am saying to you! Your brain cannot use any nutrient except carbohydrates. I am not trying to be hurtful I am being honest and telling you that you are sacraficing long term health for short term weight loss. You can choose not to believe me, or not to see a nutritionist and continue on that path, but know that you are damaging organs long term. Even good fats have parameters. You should not be eating 50-70% of your diet from fats no matter how healthy they are. Your brain function will suffer and your organs will not be able to keep for the long haul.

    You can do low/moderate/high carb options with Low GI....that is not the point. The point is that eating carbs as low as 10-20% of your daily values is asking for trouble. I am sorry you are offended, but I am a professional in the field and cannot sit here and watch people advise someone to change their macros to 10% daily carb intake. It is starving your brain.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    This is the simplest explanation of carbs and brain fuction that I have on hand right now.

    http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/carbs.html
  • Alliwan
    Alliwan Posts: 1,245 Member
    Your brain cannot use fats. I am speaking to you as a nutition professional. Eating as low as 10% of your daily nutrition from carbs is damaging your body whether you believe it or not. Ask any dietitian. Not one would ever recommend that unless you were morbidly obese and preparing for surgery! That is the only time I have ever recommended that to a patient!

    I can point to you thousands of research studies that prove exactly what I am saying to you! Your brain cannot use any nutrient except carbohydrates. I am not trying to be hurtful I am being honest and telling you that you are sacraficing long term health for short term weight loss. You can choose not to believe me, or not to see a nutritionist and continue on that path, but know that you are damaging organs long term. Even good fats have parameters. You should not be eating 50-70% of your diet from fats no matter how healthy they are. Your brain function will suffer and your organs will not be able to keep for the long haul.

    You can do low/moderate/high carb options with Low GI....that is not the point. The point is that eating carbs as low as 10-20% of your daily values is asking for trouble. I am sorry you are offended, but I am a professional in the field and cannot sit here and watch people advise someone to change their macros to 10% daily carb intake. It is starving your brain.

    I'd imagine it'd be hard for you to give different advise and push Shakeology as hard as you do. There are lots of studies showing very different results. But to each their own. I know I'll keep getting my advice from real Dietitians on the LCHF boards and not someone with an agenda. Thank you.
  • smedynski
    smedynski Posts: 20
    My macros were set by my Endocrinologist with the help of his Registered Dietitian. Since switching to this way of eating I've lost 30lbs (17 since restarting with MFP) and have been taken off all of my medications including Metformin.

    I tried a low GI diet for years with no results.

    But since switching to this style of eating my blood work has been fantastic, I feel great, and like I mentioned I'm off medication.

    Everyone is different, what works for someone might not work for anyone else.

    I would encourage anyone to do research and partner with your doctor before making any drastic diet changes.

    A great resource for information on this type of eating is Mark's Daily Apple or Jimmy Moore's Living La Vida Low Carb.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    I also know hundreds of dietians on Shakeology. It is the healthiest meal replacement out there...that is undisputed by every single dietitian I have spoken with, and on every board I post on. I have no agenda except helping those that want my help. I do it every single day....it's my calling in life and I love it.

    Just because I refuse to stand by and watch you all give her horrible advice does not mean I have an agenda, it means I have a brain and and education and I use it.

    Go ahead and post her question on the dietician's board. Every one of them will agree with me. Let me know what you find out....

    And that is all the negativity I have time for today...or in my life. Period. I don't do negative crap. Remain positive and positive things will come to you.

    And to the original poster. Please see a nutritionist before you do something that like drastically change your macros. Some people don't want to go because they are afraid of judgement. There is no judgement, we don't even weigh you unless you request it. PCOS is a huge challenge...one I face every single day, and yes it is different for everyone, but certain things cause a lot more harm than good.

    Cat
  • MysticTigress
    MysticTigress Posts: 6 Member
    My Macro ratios at present are 50% Fat, 30% Protein and 20% Carbs. I'm also gluten free. I don't have the funds to consult a nutritionist or dietitian so I base my nutrition decisions on the scientific papers and blogs/articles I find written by licensed doctors and dietitians. That and my own instinct and observations about my body and how it feels when I eat certain ways. When I eat too many carbs (even supposedly good low GI carbs) I feel bloated and heavy. If I eat 20% carbs, I feel light and energetic. Anything lower than 18% carbs, I'm sluggish and feel horrid. Nutrition is a very personal thing. What works for one person, may not work for everyone. Blanket statements are unwise because of that. Another valid point, some dietitians are stuck on advice from very old research and others are looking at mainly new research so it's honestly best to look for many, many varied sources and not take any one source as the 100% gospel truth.

    Also, the brain can indeed gain fuel from protein/fat. The body has a process it uses to convert protein/fat into glucose (gluconeogenesis), which can then be readily used by the brain. Glucose ,of course, is the same as what is produced by carbs that are eaten. It is the nutrient necessary to feed the brain. So there is merely an additional step the body has to use. Science, gotta love it.

    I did just post a blog on my personal page with my personal PCOS story if anyone is interested in reading it. You may have to friend me first, I'm not sure. :)http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/MysticTigress
  • UsedToBeHusky
    UsedToBeHusky Posts: 15,228 Member
    Thanks for all the information, everyone. Unfortuantely, I'm no closer to an answer. All of these arguments are the same ones I have seen ALL over the internet.

    Truth is, I don't feel comfortable with going low carb, high fat. Also, I'm not at all happy with the low-GI method either. I mean, there are some high-GI foods that are healthy and I'm not willing to sacrifice (particularly bananas).

    I have another month on the Metformin before I go back to the endocrinologist to check blood work. If the hormone issues still persist, I will get a referral to a dietitian. In the meantime, I have gone back to my 40% carb, 30% protein, 30% fat ratio, and I'm just going to try my best to minimize starchy carb intake.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    Bananas are moderate GI and Low glycemic load. A serving is 1/2 a banana and I eat them all the time! Low GI is not about eating only LOW GI foods. There is room in your diet for even your favorite High GI foods, it is not an all or nothing approach, its is very sustainable and something that anyone can do without cutting entire food groups out of your diet and still getting all the nutrients you need.

    I am glad you are going to see a dietician, that will be very helpful. Just like you should never WebMD yous symptoms when you are sick....the internet is a scary place to ask for nutrition advice! Good Luck and message me if you need to chat more about this or anything!

    Cat
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    My Macro ratios at present are 50% Fat, 30% Protein and 20% Carbs. I'm also gluten free. I don't have the funds to consult a nutritionist or dietitian so I base my nutrition decisions on the scientific papers and blogs/articles I find written by licensed doctors and dietitians. That and my own instinct and observations about my body and how it feels when I eat certain ways. When I eat too many carbs (even supposedly good low GI carbs) I feel bloated and heavy. If I eat 20% carbs, I feel light and energetic. Anything lower than 18% carbs, I'm sluggish and feel horrid. Nutrition is a very personal thing. What works for one person, may not work for everyone. Blanket statements are unwise because of that. Another valid point, some dietitians are stuck on advice from very old research and others are looking at mainly new research so it's honestly best to look for many, many varied sources and not take any one source as the 100% gospel truth.

    Also, the brain can indeed gain fuel from protein/fat. The body has a process it uses to convert protein/fat into glucose (gluconeogenesis), which can then be readily used by the brain. Glucose ,of course, is the same as what is produced by carbs that are eaten. It is the nutrient necessary to feed the brain. So there is merely an additional step the body has to use. Science, gotta love it.

    I did just post a blog on my personal page with my personal PCOS story if anyone is interested in reading it. You may have to friend me first, I'm not sure. :)http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/MysticTigress

    For most women with PCOS our blood/glucose/insulin ratios are off, and very difficult to balance, therefor effecting our ability to convert that protein/fat to glucose. I could get into the long scientifc explanation for this, but I get the feeling it would be lost here. So what you are actually doing is to ask your body to do something that it is under-capable of doing. Putting further stress on a system that you are trying to heal. Its fine to do whatever you want to your own body, but don't give faulty "medical" and dietary advice to someone unless you know what you are talking about. If you would like more information about how certain things effect, specifically PCOS or other endocrine compromising disorders, I would highly recommend seeing an RD that specializes in endocrine disorders.
  • MysticTigress
    MysticTigress Posts: 6 Member
    I would be very interested in reading your scientific studies proving what you're saying. Every single study I've read thus far states quite clearly that a low carb/high fat diet is of great benefit to sufferers of PCOS as well as those who suffer from Insulin resistance in general, as well as those with Diabetes. I am a member of six different PCOS groups on Facebook, each with well over 1,000 members each, one with nearly 10,000. In hearing a rather huge sampling of stories from the ladies in those groups, it seems that a very large number of them were recommended a low carb/high fat diet by their endo, with reasoning being that it stabilizes the blood sugar (which it does). Eating a high carb diet creates a roller-coaster effect on the blood sugar, it spikes high and then drops low just as quick. That's not healthy. You end up having to eat very often as you tend to end up ravenous. Eating high fat and low carb, your blood sugar stays stable throughout the day. No crazy spikes and no sudden lows. Fat is filling and stays with you for a very low time so you don't feel hungry very often. It's also not the evil substance that we've been told it is. New science has proven that as fact. It's also important to note that most women who are prescribed Metformin are told (by their doctors and dietitians) they must adopt a low carb/high fat diet as Metformin is well known to not play well with a high carb lifestyle (horrible digestive issues if you try to eat high carb).

    I do not appreciate the insinuation that I'm attempting to 'tell' anyone else what to do with their own bodies. I am not, I merely shared my own macros and experiences, as per the request of the original post. As I've said before, nutrition is a very personal thing. Everyone is different as far as their dietary needs go and what will or will not work for them. There is NO one-size-fits-all when it comes to diet. Any truly knowledgeable dietitian would acknowledge that and tailor a diet plan to their patient's individual needs,not their own agenda.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    I have no agenda with anyone here. I would love to know where you are all getting that?

    I am simply imparting real facts and not mass hysteria regarding carbs. You are assuming all carbs are bad and spike blood sugar when that is simply not the case. refined/simple carbs will do that, but complex carbs will not. A peice of white bread does not equal a peice of fruit. They are both carbs...might even have the same number of carbs based on which fruit and which bread you eat. One will spike your blood sugar and cause your body to store the nutrients as fat once the insulin spike is unsuccessful at turning it into energy...the other will give you a nice even blood sugar curve causing no spike and no fat storage. You guess which one is better?

    So even though they have the same carbs and produce dramatically different results you are inclined to remove all 90% of the carbs from you diet and along with it the nutrients that come with them? the fiber? the water? All positive benefits for your body.

    PS: i don't really care how many people are doing it, if they are not seeing a di3tician that specializes in PCOS and endocrine disorders they are the blind leading the blind. It is a relatively new diagnosis the medical field and there aren't many who specialize in it, and that is the truth. There is not a dietician on earth who would have you as low as 10% carbs. That is also the truth. At that point your body is going to be starving for nutrients and please don't tell me you take a multi-vitamin because that is not readily absorbed by your body.

    Again, I don't care what you do with your own body or who gives you this crazy advice that is going to cause serious issues without your own body systems, but don't make others believe that what you are doing is a cure all for their symptoms!
  • MysticTigress
    MysticTigress Posts: 6 Member
    Clearly you missed the fact that I stated licensed endocrinologist and licensed registered dietitians are the ones recommending low carb, high fat to their patients (PCOS sufferers, insulin resistant patients and also diabetics (both type 1 and 2). There is only one person on this thread looking to sell a relatively high carb product and that very same person is the same one bashing those who choose to or where directed by their doctor to eat a low carb, high fat diet. The amount of carbs each person needs to be healthy varies from person to person, there is no one set amount. For example, my boyfriend does well at 5 to 10% carbs, where as I need around 20% carbs. Both are low carb, but one is lower than the other.

    Science does in fact show that high carb, low fat is horrible for health in the long run, no matter if the carbs are high GI, low GI or a mixture of both. Low GI is the better choice when eating any carb however as they do affect the blood sugar differently than high GI carbs. Fiber or fat in the food changes the quickness of the food to be absorbed. The faster it's absorbed the higher the blood sugar spikes and the faster you become hungry again. The only studies showing high carb, low fat to be healthy however are those based on a very old and erroneous (the scientist who did it said himself that the study was flawed, but it got ran with by other scientists anyhow) study. High carb is a leading cause of many diseases, not just endocrine disorders. I can provide links to my sources for anyone interested. I am well aware that people don't like being told that they are wrong when they erroneously believe themselves right, so I will overlook your nastiness as cognitive dissonance. It's clear from the very tone of your posts that you know very little to nothing about low carb, high fat diets and aren't willing to learn. There is no nutrition or fiber missing from a properly executed low carb, high fat diet. None at all, and no need for a multi-vitamin either.

    Best wishes, I won't waste my time replying to this thread again.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    I will reply as many times as I wish thank you.

    I have never tried to sell anything to anyone here, nor is anything that I use a HIGH CARB product. I am a licensed nutrition professional and I am here telling you that there isn't a single one of us that in good conscience would prescribe a diet as low as 10% carbs. 20 isn't as bad, but 10% is starving your brain and body of nutrients when you do it for a long period of time. I am not going to beat a dead horse here by explaining again, nor have I never once told anyone that low fat is good. A proper balance of the right kinds of fats and the right kinds of carbs is what is best for most people, especially with PCOS.

    I have PCOS, and I currently see 39 patient with varying degrees of PCOS and other endocrine disorders. I have seen over 230 since I began my job. You and your boyfriend can eat 5-10% carbs if you want. Enjoy that forced keto that is going to do long term damage to your body. Saying I know nothing about high/low carb diets is ridiculous. I have a master's degree in nutrition and am working on one in education to teach nutrition. You are quite simply a stubborn person who seeks to influence people by bashing others, and others with medically sound advice and research to back up that advice.

    I never recommended a high carb diet like you suggest, I never suggested a low carb diet/ or low fat diet as you are attemping to suggest, but all one needs to do is take a quick peek at your diary to figure out that you are not losing weight because of the right diet for PCOS, it's because you are starving your body. Go ahead and compare your's and mine if you like. I eat 5-6 times a day and never feel deprived, eating tons of veggies, protein, a few fruits, a bit of dairy, and a tiny bit of whole grains. You eat usually 2 times a day, with the majority of your calories and nutrients coming in the evening meal. Ask your "nutritionist" how good that is for you? The number of calories and nutrients that I have seen is alarmingly low and the meal timing is atrocious. Before you go giving advice to people you should really see someone about the disordered eating that you are pedaling to people.

    Have a nice day!

    To anyone that reads this thread in the future: Please see someone qualified to give you nutritional advice based on your PCOS diagnosis and your medical history. Do not take your advice from idiots on the internet with no real education on the topic.
  • MysticTigress
    MysticTigress Posts: 6 Member
    *sigh* I wasn't going to reply again, but since I'm being personally attacked now, I decided on one last reply and then I'm hitting ignore so I don't have to listen to more of this nonsense.

    Firstly, I am NOT promoting or advocating anything at all. I'm not the one promoting a fad meal replacement product. I've stated what works for me and some of the knowledge I've learned from reading actual scientific studies and articles from actual licensed doctors and licensed registered dietians. Anyone and their momma can become a nutritionist, but not everyone can become a registered dietitian or doctor. Sorry, but I'll take my advise from the true professionals as well as from science itself, especially since I've asked for sources and you have yet to produce any so I have to assume you have none to show.

    As far as my food diary, it is set to friends only and you are not a MFP friend of mine anymore (haven't for several days). If you'd bothered paying attention to my statuses, you'd know that my current diet is a far cry from the diet I've had from May 2013 until about three months ago. I've said as much. The last three months have been extremely rough financially. We have reached below poverty level. I do the best I can with the extremely limited funds I have available at present. I'd love to see you do better with what limited resources I have. I'm working on increasing the amount of vegetables in my diet again right now now that finances are beginning to recover. Ideally I'd like my day to be mostly vegetables, some meat and other protein sources and then low GI fruit to gain any remaining carbs I need for that day again. Before our finances took a nosedive, that is exactly how I/we had been eating. I've calculated my BMR and TDEE and since I'm loosely encouraging weight loss, try to keep my calorie goal right between the two (currently 1800/day). Due to limited funds, I've been a bit low calorie-wise lately (not drastically, but still too low for my liking), but that has been improving as our finances improve. I sincerely feel for your patients if you're this judgmental and hostile to a stranger on the internet, I can't even imagine how you behave with them.

    As I said before, best wishes. I am not bothering with this any further.
  • CatShelton
    CatShelton Posts: 147 Member
    There isn't really any reason for me to respond to this, but I will since you are implying that I am not real professional I will. I am a registered Dietician in my state. I responding to this post as someone interested in giving real, scientific, nutritionally sound advice. Not someone "pushing fad meal replacements" as you say. It is true that I am a beach body coach in addition to my day job but as a professional who read and understand ingredients I have done an immense amount of research on the product, consulted herbalists, homeopathic doctors, conventional medical doctors, and the endocrinologist that I am affiliated with through my job. It is not a "fad" protein shake type thing, but a dose of insanely dense nutrition that has helped me to reverse the symptoms of my PCOS.

    I really don't care though, what you have to say about me. What I care about it you all telling this poor girl who is struggling with her macros that it is okay to drop down to 10% carbs. Its not unless you fall into a very small percentage of patients. There are ways to eat for PCOS that do no include depriving your body and brain of vital nutrients. I have done it, my patients have done it, tons of people have done it in a healthy way. I would give you sources until the cows come home, but my work computer will not allow this cite. However, I can explain in more depth if you like.

    Essentially you are telling a woman whose body has trouble with glucose and insulin, that her body will just turn the excess fat into glucose for use by the brain. But if you look into the body of a woman with PCOS that process is severely impaired. If it takes place at all it takes up to 12 hours for it to occur, much slower than in a healthy person with a normally functioning endocrine system, and putting unnecessary stress on your body systems. Anyway....I am sure this is all lost on you since you seem not to care about what you do to your body, which is your own perogative, and thats, fine. But don't advise others if you don't know what you are talking about, and certainly don't make yourself look like an idiot by trying to insinuate that I am not a professional with a master's degree, with almost 10 years of experience working with patients with endocrine disorders.

    Cat
  • pyramid918
    pyramid918 Posts: 23 Member
    Okay okay okay... Not that I want to get in to anything with you guys but I've been suffering from PCOS for years and decided to run an experiment. Initially I kept a very healthy, clean, organic and balanced diet while exercising daily and keeping under my daily calories. While in this state of glucosis, I lost around 10 pounds in two months. I then switched to a ketogenic diet, (which I suggest you read about since your initial reaction might be incorrect,) maintained my workouts, calorie intake, and organic/clean diet but moved my macros to 70% fat 35% protein and 5% net carbs. In a state of ketosis, I have lost 20 pounds in just under a month. Your body and brain can run quick efficiently on fat alone once you remove the sugar from your system. In this last month alone I've lost 3% of my body fat and my muscle mass increased 1%. My cholesterol levels have shown a great increase in HDL (the good one) and the LDL size has changed from small (bad) to large (good). My brain isn't fogged and my workouts remain intense. All of this was suggested and monitord by my endocrynologist and my physician. There is NO blanket solution to weight loss but I wanted to show you that a ketogenic diet is an effective and healthy way to combat inulin and carbohydrate resistance.
  • pyramid918
    pyramid918 Posts: 23 Member
    Oh, and most if not all all of my carbohydrates come from vegetables (of which I love and eat often).
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    I didn't read through all of the responses, because it seemed to be a lot of arguing. Here are my thoughts on some of the information sort of presented here, and hopefully some answers to your questions. I apologize if there isn't a lot of cohesion between sections. At that level, it's a little stream-of-consciousness, so there isn't much lead-in between them. The content under the headings should be more structured.

    Dropping carbs can kill carb cravings

    Sounds paradoxical, but it is true. "Have not, want not," basically. This is because sugar can have an addictive effect on the brain (stimulates the reward center, reinforcing the behavior). It doesn't necessarily work for everyone, but I've seen a number of people with issues with binging overcome it by dropping their carbs and increasing their fats, and have even experienced the phenomenon of killing carb cravings by reducing carbs first hand.

    I have a friend who overcame her binge eating disorder with a ketogenic diet. She finds that if she gets more than 10% of her calories from carbs (any carbs, even fruits), she starts having issues again. Those issues are gone when she sticks to under 10%. Not everyone has this low of a threshold, but if you're still struggling, it might be worth trying a larger decrease. Just increase your fats to provide the fuel your body needs.

    The brain doesn't run on fat, but the body can make the glucose it needs

    Cat is right when she mentioned that the brain can't run on fat. In fact, it's the only organ in the body that needs glucose to run. But here's the catch -- the body can make the glucose necessary to fuel the brain. The brain can also function well when part of its fuel is from ketones, and the rest of the body can run just fine on ketones. Ketones are a fuel source that comes as a byproduct of burning fat.

    Low carb, high fat is not dangerous

    The Inuit and countless people with neurological issues can testify to this.

    The Inuit traditional diet is nearly devoid of carbohydrates, yet the "diseases of civilization" were basically non-existent until their diets were "Westernized." Their diet didn't "destroy their organs," and no, they're not special snowflakes. They're human beings, just like the rest of us. Weston A. Price found that they, as well as the isolated people of the Masai, Gaelic, and Swiss regions, had varied diets and were arguably more "primitive" than his patients in Ohio, and yet, they were far healthier. No toothbrushes, yet not cavities. That's unheard of in the West! Why? What did they all have in common? High fat diets. In fact, fat was so valuable, the groups that hunted land animals went out of their way to get the fattiest ones they could find. When meat preservation methods were found, the big hunts would happen in late fall, when the animals were the fattest.

    A ketogenic diet (very low carb, high fat, moderate protein) has been proven to improve neurological function, not impair it. In fact, it was initially created to reduce the number of seizures in epileptics. It has also shown promise in helping and preventing neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, as well as other neurological-based issues, such as Autism and migraines, and some tangentially related issues, including cancer and stroke. The ketogenic diet has been used since the 1920s, so it's anything but new and untested.

    Also, you'll get many people (yes, even doctors) who think that the state of ketosis is a bad thing. They're confusing it with ketoacidosis, which is very much a bad thing. Ketoacidosis is the ketone version of hyperglycemia, basically. It's a state of too many ketones in the blood. However, this is quite rare, and generally only happens in Type 1 Diabetics and Type 2 Diabetics who are insulin-dependent. This is because ketones are regulated by insulin. The difference between ketones and glucose is that ketones are largely generated from internal sources (ie - stored fat), while glucose is largely obtained through external sources (ie - food). This means that when the organs get the signal that there's enough ketones, the body simply stops making them and stores any fat from food. This differs from glucose, which the body tries to force into glycogen before storing it as fat.

    Not all carbs are created equal, but they do have their own issues

    As was also mentioned, the sugar in fruit isn't the same as the granulated sugar in your pantry. However, that doesn't mean the sugar in fruit can be completely disregarded. All usable carbs, though, will elevate blood triglyceride levels.

    The primary sugar in fruit is fructose. Unlike glucose, the body can't use it directly (so it doesn't raise blood glucose levels). Instead, it get shipped to the liver, where it's converted to glucose and triglycerides (fat). Fructose, specifically, has been found to be a contributor in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (probably due to the insane amounts the typical Western diet has).

    Glucose, another primary component of many carbohydrate sources, can be used directly, however it's toxic in high amounts. This is why the body uses it before anything else. Too much sugar in the bloodstream (hyperglycemia) causes nerve damage (neuropathy), anxiety, impaired brain function, and cardiovascular issues (which can lead to heart attack, stroke, and/or limb necrosis), among other things.

    Fiber is a sort of special carb, because our body doesn't actually use it the same way. Instead, it's used as "filler" in our bowel movements, and to feed the flora we have in our gut. What the flora don't use gets excreted.

    Most other carbs will eventually break down to one or more of the above three, or a couple of other monosaccharides (ie - galactose, a component of lactose, the sugar in milk). Yes, even the "complex carbs" will eventually become glucose. They just do so at a slower rate (which, when you're insulin resistant and at risk for elevated blood sugar, may or may not be a good thing).

    From whole foods, all carbs are complex carbs. You will almost never find a whole food with a lot of sugar that doesn't also have a lot of fiber. This is why whole foods beat processed any day, even in cases where the amount of sugar is comparable.

    Fat is healthy and essential

    Contrary to what we've been led to believe, our bodies need fat. The sources I've seen point to a minimum of .35g/lb of total body weight (though, admittedly, I haven't yet found the original source for that number, though the WHO does recommend 10-20% of calories be fat as a minimum).

    Fat is required for:

    - Hormone regulation
    - Absorbing and using Vitamins A, D, E, and K
    - Vitamin D production (cholesterol is actually a precursor to Vitamin D)
    - Cell building and repair (our cell walls are made from fat)
    - Control cell function
    - Regulate inflammation
    - Nerve cell function
    - Healthy skin and hair
    - Prevent gallbladder issues

    Like Carbs, Not All Fats Are Created Equal

    Trans fats are bad, hands down. Hydrogenated oils are trans fats. I think everyone can agree there. If there's one thing you get out of all this, let it be that. Avoid hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated fats like the plague.

    I think everyone agrees that monounsaturated fats are good, too. So if all else fails, go for those. You pretty much can't go wrong with them.

    From there, it gets a little fuzzier. Polyunsaturated fats are often held on a pedestal for their virtues, but too much Omega-6 and too little Omega-3 has the reverse effect. Omega-6 and Omega-3 use the same channels, so one will take over the other. Ideally, you want a 1-to-1 balance, though 2-to-1 (6-to-3) is considered acceptable, too. The problem, though, is that unless you eat a ton of fish, your Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio is probably more like 500:1. Seeds, nuts, and their oils are almost entirely Omega-6 in their polyunsaturated content. At those levels, you end up with increased inflammation, and increased inflammation is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

    Saturated fat has gotten a bad rap in the past few decades. The truth of the matter is, though, that it's not bad for you. In fact, when you look at the science, itself, you'll find that the science is pretty clear -- there's no strong evidence that links saturated fat intake with cardiovascular disease. Even more, as Dr. Peter Attia points out ( https://player.vimeo.com/video/45485034 ), political matters have caused quite a bit of publication bias and disparities between what the studies actually find and what's released to the public.

    Low Carb is Not Bad, but Low Carb, Low Fat Is

    Unfortunately, the low-fat mantra is so ingrained that many people who try to lower their carbs increase their protein. This is very bad. In fact, there's a name for what happens when you have too much protein and not enough fat or carbs -- Rabbit Starvation. Actually, there are a couple of names, it's also known as protein poisoning, or "mal de caribou."

    Simply put, protein is not fuel, carbs and fat are. You can get by on the bare minimum fat and get all of the rest of your fuel from carbs, or you can get all of your fuel from fat and nothing from carbs, but you cannot severely reduce your consumption of both. If you do, you'll end up crashing and burning in a miserable sort of way. The body reinforces the fact that protein is not fuel by causing cravings for fat and/or carbs, that can only be satiated by fat and/or carbs, when you're in a state of Rabbit Starvation. If you decrease one fuel, you have to increase the other.

    Arctic explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson wrote this:
    The groups that depend on the blubber animals are the most fortunate in the hunting way of life, for they never suffer from fat-hunger. This trouble is worst, so far as North America is concerned, among those forest Indians who depend at times on rabbits, the leanest animal in the North, and who develop the extreme fat-hunger known as rabbit-starvation. Rabbit eaters, if they have no fat from another source—beaver, moose, fish—will develop diarrhea in about a week, with headache, lassitude and vague discomfort. If there are enough rabbits, the people eat till their stomachs are distended; but no matter how much they eat they feel unsatisfied. Some think a man will die sooner if he eats continually of fat-free meat than if he eats nothing, but this is a belief on which sufficient evidence for a decision has not been gathered in the North. Deaths from rabbit-starvation, or from the eating of other skinny meat, are rare; for everyone understands the principle, and any possible preventive steps are naturally taken.

    What's That Mean For You?

    Well, for one, your reservations for increasing fat are very likely unfounded. You'd probably also fare better, if you try low carb again, to increase your fats, instead of protein. A low carb, moderate/adequate protein, high fat diet has been a very effective and sustainable way of eating for a lot of people with PCOS, so I recommend not discounting it too easily, especially if your blood tests have shown that you're insulin resistant. I highly encourage you to check out Dr. Peter Attia's blog, or at least his "About Me" section ( http://eatingacademy.com/my-personal-nutrition-journey ), to see how a ketogenic diet helped reverse his insulin resistance. I also made a couple other, rather lengthy posts in this forum and in my blog, about PCOS, Metformin, and the liver, that I encourage you to read (this one is really long already).

    On a side note - bananas are touted for their potassium content, but really, they're pretty mediocre. Dark, leafy greens, avocado, salmon, acorn squash, and white mushrooms beat out bananas gram-for-gram when it comes to potassium content.

    My recommendations are multifactoral. First, here's the macro breakdown:

    Protein - about 1g/lb of lean body weight. Getting that or a little more is especially important if you're working out. You want to retain muscle, so that you look good at your lower weight, and so you can keep losing weight without having to slash calories too much.

    Carbs - Depends largely on your goals, but I've found 100g to be a good starting upper limit. It gives a lot of the benefits of lower carb eating, while still allowing for higher carb items like potatoes or ice cream or whatever. You'd be amazed at how much you can have on even less than 100g of carbs when you limit the things that have a lot of carbs and not a lot of nutrition.

    Fat - Fill in the rest with fat, but try to make sure it's at least .35g/lb of total body weight. If you can't get that minimum and you have a pretty low carb number, you're probably not eating enough. If you have an adequate intake level and lower carb setting, then this may be a pretty high number and percentage. That's a good thing if your goal is lower carbs.

    Give a given setup a solid month before trying to change. Especially when it comes to playing with carb levels, you really have to let your body adjust to really see what it will do with what you give it. If you find yourself hungry all the time and you're eating enough food, then drop carbs and increase fat. If you find yourself having to force feed yourself in order to get the amount of food you need, try increasing your carbs and dropping fat. The goal is to eat enough to fuel your body properly, while being able to lose weight without starving yourself and without having to fight your body every step of the way. It may take a little tweaking, but it can be done.

    Next, I've found that what we eat is at least as important as how much we eat. Therefore, I recommend the following:

    - Limit or eliminate grains, especially gluten grains. There is a pretty strong correlation between PCOS and gluten sensitivity (so much so that some doctors find as much as 85% of their PCOS patients are gluten intolerant). There is also evidence to suggest that endometriosis symptoms can be improved by removing gluten and wheat. I personally just keep all grains to a minimum, so I don't have to remember which ones have gluten in them or are typically contaminated. Grains don't contain anything that can't be found, usually in higher quantities and more bioavailable forms, in other foods, so you can safely cut them out entirely and not really worry about lack of nutrients, provided you eat a decent variety of food.

    - Limit or eliminate dairy. Casein, a protein in milk, is highly insulinogenic, meaning it triggers an insulin response. All protein does this, and of course, glucose carbs do, as well. Casein, however, does it more than other proteins. It makes sense, if you think about it -- milk is primarily for a baby animal. Insulin is a growth hormone. 1 + 1 = 2. Insulin, however, is something we need to keep from going up too much. Additionally, casein is cross-reactive with gluten. That's why people who go gluten free will often also go casein free. At the very least, drop the casein-containing dairy items from your diet (butter may be okay, since it is almost entirely just the fat, but if you find it causes problems, you can try ghee, which removes the remaining proteins and sugars from butter, or just switch to other fats, such as coconut oil or lard, for cooking).

    - Avoid unfermented or all soy. The phytoestrogens in soy are especially bad for us, since our bodies are already out of whack. The fermentation process helps neutralize the endocrine disrupting compounds, so if you like soy, stick with the fermented varieties. Personally, I just stay away from it altogether as much as possible.

    - Avoid or properly cook legumes and white potatoes. Legumes are particularly high in certain phytochemicals, as are potatoes, when not properly handled. Legumes should be soaked and/or sprouted, and cooked thoroughly. Potatoes should be kept a cool, dark, dry place to avoid sprouting and also cooked thoroughly.This handling helps break down those chemicals, so that our liver doesn't have to deal with them.

    - Avoid refined sugars and limit all starch. The refined sugar is pretty obvious, but starch falls into that, too. Starch is a relatively simple carbohydrate, so it breaks down into glucose quickly and easily. It's not as bad as refined sugar, but if you're insulin resistant, then it's a good idea to limit it, too.

    - Stick with whole foods. Doing the above, and eliminating grains, milk, and soy, pretty much begs this one, but I'll say it anyway. Whole foods give us the most nutrition by pretty much any measure. Even the sweeter foods, like your banana example, naturally mitigates its sugar impact with fiber, especially if you can find heirloom varieties, or other varieties that aren't bred for sweetness to the exclusion of nutrients.

    Hopefully this helps you more than the arguments that have arisen from your original post. If you have more questions or concerns, feel free to ask either on here or in a PM.


    Sources:
    http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/pricetoc.html
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/
    http://site.matthewsfriends.org/index.php?page=other-uses-of-the-ketogenic-diet
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2003/10/25/carbs-triglycerides.aspx
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11584104
    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/10/2335.long
    http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/az1126.html
    (The limits of scientific evidence and the ethics of dietary guidelines -- 60 years of ambiguity; Dr. Peter Attia)
    http://www.bmj.com/press-releases/2013/10/22/observations-saturated-fat-not-major-issue
    http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2010/01/saturated-fat-is-not-associated-with.html
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.abstract
    http://www.medbio.info/Horn/PDF files/rabbit starvation.pdf
    http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/food-sources-of-potassium.php
    http://www.thesavvyceliac.com/2009/11/02/is-pcos-a-symptom-of-a-gluten-sensitivity-or-celiac-disease/
    http://www.pcosdietsupport.com/diet-tips/pcos-and-gluten/
    http://www.everydayhealth.com/womens-health/essentials-of-endometriosis-diet.aspx
    http://www.glutenfreesociety.org/gluten-free-society-blog/gluten-and-endometriosis-is-there-a-connection/
    http://eatingacademy.com/my-personal-nutrition-journey

    Extra Reading:
    http://eatingacademy.com/
    My blog and other posts in this forum group.
  • Lizabelle1212
    Lizabelle1212 Posts: 252 Member
    For what it's worth, I would listen to Dragonwolf over the crazy high-carb lady.

    Also for what it's worth, my weight loss is much more successful when I limit my carb intake to around 100g/day. I aim for macro ratios of 50%fat/25%protein/25%carb - I sometimes switch up the protein and carbs to be 30% protein and 20% carbs, but find that not as easy to maintain.

    However, you will not find one correct answer, because unfortunately there isn't one correct answer. There is arguing because, to add to the already long list of crappy things about PCOS, it affects every woman differently. Some have the related insulin resistance while others do not, some have messed up (or nonexistent) cycles, others have periods that come like clockwork each month (like myself) even without the help of metformin or birth control. As annoying as it sounds, it truly is just a game of trial and error until you find what works for your body - and what "works" is not only what's healthiest and results in the best weight loss, but what is also the most sustainable for you. A diet (and I say "diet" meaning your eating habits) isn't worth crap if you can't maintain it for the rest of your life.
  • mjrose514
    mjrose514 Posts: 60 Member
    Wow I know this is an old thread, but dang lol. No wonder we're all so confused. What makes it harder is when you have multiple people trying to donate their time to help you, but the information is on the opposite ends of the spectrum.... I wish I could just be normal lol.
  • Everything that I've read (namely USDA and NIH) says that you need at least 130 grams of carbs per day for normal brain functioning. So that's what I aim for 130g at least. I try not to go over 150g, and I have lost 23lbs since May 8 with two "plateaus" that lasted several weeks each. I also take apple cider vinegar with my tea or in my water, since I read a few research studies that claimed it lowers blood glucose levels. i lost a significant amount of weight several yrs ago by adding ACV to my morning and evening tea, and I had not changed my diet or exercise habits at that time.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
    Everything that I've read (namely USDA and NIH) says that you need at least 130 grams of carbs per day for normal brain functioning. So that's what I aim for 130g at least. I try not to go over 150g, and I have lost 23lbs since May 8 with two "plateaus" that lasted several weeks each. I also take apple cider vinegar with my tea or in my water, since I read a few research studies that claimed it lowers blood glucose levels. i lost a significant amount of weight several yrs ago by adding ACV to my morning and evening tea, and I had not changed my diet or exercise habits at that time.

    Needing a certain amount and needing to eat a certain amount are two completely different things. See my post on the first page for details on that and references.

    In short, the body can make the vast majority of the energy the brain needs, so you don't need to eat 130g of carbs a day.

    If it works for you, then by all means keep going with that, just don't do so under the mistaken idea that you have to eat that many.
  • TwizzleBit
    TwizzleBit Posts: 23 Member
    ^^^^^This recommendation goes for all of you! I cannot believe any of you can be happy/healthy eating that little amount of carbs and that high amount of fat! Good fats are great for you, but in such large amounts you are likely damaging a lot organs, and carbs are the only nutrient that is available for use by your brain! Less than 30% of your day from carbs no only reduces energy but leaves your brain with no nutrition. You probably get a foggy feeling in the afternoon/evening, or cant remember certain things, can't perform memory, comprehension, "tasks" as well. That is scary. Up your carbs for the love of god, but make it the right carbs. Carbs are fine for women with PCOS as long as it is proper ones for the diagnosis!

    I don't think that's accurate. I will tell you for a fact that eating healthy carbs that come from fruits, vegetables, and legumes did me no favours when it came to my yearly blood tests.

    I had normal blood sugar by cutting out most carbs and eating only a few new potatoes every so often (they have less carbs than standard potatoes), but when I added more fruits for variety with my meals (for example, apple, orange, and a banana or plum) it caused my fasting blood sugar to basically double.

    By it doubling, it brought back my insulin resistance, which was under control without so many carbs, regardless of the source.

    Since I've started Keto and ultra low carb, I've had tons of more energy and it has educated me that my body can't deal with dairy and wheat products. I'm eating less than 10% carbs per day (less than 40g). I feel better than I ever have on a low cal/low carb/low fat eating plan.


    I'm interested to see how my next lot of blood tests come out.
  • jogami
    jogami Posts: 31 Member
    I set mine at 50% fat, 25% protein and 25% carbs. I am very liberal with my oils (only avocado oil, coconut oil and olive oil) and my food tastes better than ever. I am on the paleo/ primal lifestyle and I've never felt so good. Neither has my skin hair and nails. I eat alot (from 1200 to 1600 cals a day) and I find the increase in fats and decrease in protein and carbs has done me wonders! And I've managed to lose 6kg in 2 weeks!

    Oh and I don't have the pain and bloating that comes with pcos! I would be curious to know how I look inside!!