Is a mixed training strategy counter productive?
ArchyRunner
Posts: 58 Member
So I've been training for a non-existent 10k using one of the Garmin HR based training plans and while I've lost almost 10 pounds in the last two months the running portion is driving me batty as I have to run SO SLOW. Hoping to drop another couple of pounds before my 16 week marathon training starts next month, but I'm not so certain I want to do it via HR (because it is SO SLOW). Knowing there is value in a bona fide recovery run (best measured via HR) but also knowing I will lose my mind if I have to jog/walk all my long runs for the next 16 weeks I was considering crafting my own plan, something along the lines of: weight training once a week, long runs are by perceived effort and have a mileage goal (1 per week), tempo run is with a pace and time goal (1 per week), interval run is by perceived effort with time goal (1 per week), and pace of recovery runs is dictated by HR and has time goal (these would follow long run, tempo, and interval). Three questions: 1) am I cancelling out benefits of one training method or the other by mixing? 2) how best to order run types for maximum benefit? 3) where to place the rest day?
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Have you measured your maximum HR by doing a stress test to see how high it can go? Or did you just estimate it using 220-age? If the latter, it's possible that you don't need to be running that slow after all. For example, my max is around 215 (I'm not 5 years old) and 60% of that is 129 (which I could run at on a super-easy run in nice weather). 60% of the formula for me would be 110, which would not remotely correspond to any running I might do.
Having said that, I don't train by HR so can't answer the specific questions if you do know your max, except to say that (1) probably not - doing very slow HR-based recovery runs as part of any other schedule can't be a bad thing, BUT the real reason to be using HR is supposed to be to moderate your effort based on your ability and current fitness. So make sure you have a sensible and realistic frame of reference for deciding your pace goals. (2 & 3) can you not order your types of run/rest days based on the plan you have been following, if all you want to change is the HR bit? Presumably it still has different kinds/intensities of run in it?2 -
The problem with perceived effort is that people (see me) often run too fast, thinking that they are running easier than they are. I'm reading Matt Fitzgerald's book 80/20 running, and I've really been working on keeping the 80/20 split. This meant adding a full minute per mile onto my easy and long run paces, but the info out there on the benefit of slow runs is solid. It's a pain running slow but, that's the reason that most all of the Garmin training plans are time based, as opposed to distance based. T
I'm looking at the Garmin level 2 HR plan for HM myself right now, and there is HR based speedwork in it, as well as the easy and long runs. If you want more info on the Garmin plans, ask @Ohhim he's used them and, in my opinion, he's a pretty amazing runner.1 -
I've done nearly all of my training in conjunction with HR data. That started in the spring of 2013, so I have a pretty good idea of what works (for me).
First, the 220-age formula for maximum HR only works for a small percentage of the population. Or put differently, it is so conservative that virtually no one is at risk of running their HR too high. That is the first problem to be solved. There are ways of testing that, An actual stress test can help set max HR and zones, If there are no underlying health issues there are other ways of self-testing.
I use/used a 30-minute running test to set all of this. It is a maximum sustainable run for 30-minutes. I do mine on a track so that I can see whether I am maintaining/sustaining a maximum pace. My max HR has tested as high as 199-203 at the end of one of those runs. Now, to be honest, that is uncomfortably high for me. So, I set my HR max at 195. The program I use to calculate the zones takes the data and approximates the lactate threshold value as the top of zone 4 (basically the average HR for the last 10 minutes). If you actually look at the data you can see the actual inflection of the HR as you run one of these tests.
That being said, my runs break down this way.
Recovery runs and "easy runs" are done with almost all of the run in zone 1 or at a very low level zone 2. This is a slow run (though it has gotten faster with conditioning), but just fast enough so that running form does not go way out of whack.
Medium-long and long runs (10-16 miles and 16-20 miles, respectively) are run almost exclusively in Zone 2 unless the run has other requirements like intervals (but they are typically classified differently) or a fast finish run (which will typically be run in Zone 2 until the fast finish kicks in and then that is typically a Zone 4 run).
Tempo runs are typically slow (Zone 1 -2) at the beginning and end, then faster (Zone 4) in the middle pressing towards the lactic acid threshold and sustaining that over the requisite distance or period. An example might be a 14-mile run with 12-miles at half-marathon or full marathon pace (my plan uses both paces for training in different phases).
Finally, my hardest runs are the VO2 max repeats. These really are the hardest workouts I do once per week. The idea is to press the run to the maximum during the time/distance and then walk/jog to allow a full recovery before the next cycle begins. The toughest ones aren't the 800m repeats, its the 1000-1200m ones of pressing to at least my 5K pace. My heart rate using climbs into the low end of Zone 5 during those sprints.
One other thing...the HR zones have moved only slightly over the past three years but the speed in each zone has dramatically increased.3 -
Thanks all for the feedback, I would have replied sooner but I didn't realize anyone had commented (grr....MFP). I tweaked my HR zones for today's run using VO2max data from three years ago, and I think I started out too fast and ended up jog/walking a bunch of the second half. Still more satisfying than the default setting Garmin had me set up for. I had another VO2max test this year but I think they screwed up the protocol and I don't trust it as much. As usual, the better solution probably lies somewhere in the middle.
@litsy3 good point regarding using the plan I have and just tweaking the ranges.
@MNLittleFinn agreed regarding perceived effort, once upon a time I hired a coach and she forced me to "run so slow you're embarrassed for people to see you", I PRd twice that year.
@STrooper did you come up with your own VO2max protocol or is that more industry standard? My last two tests were just gradual progressions.0 -
The thirty minute CP-30 test is a standard test protocol (CP=critical power). Fitzgerald or Pftizinger also describe this approach. Another protocol is a series of 800m repeats to set various zones and thresholds. Mine (CP-30) happens to be incorporated into the iCardio (Digifit) app, though it does overestimate my VO2max based upon my maximum heart rate and resting heart rate. The velocity based VO2max is probably more accurate (Daniels). But the heart rate zones match other approaches I've seen.
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Have you measured your maximum HR by doing a stress test to see how high it can go? Or did you just estimate it using 220-age? If the latter, it's possible that you don't need to be running that slow after all. For example, my max is around 215 (I'm not 5 years old) and 60% of that is 129 (which I could run at on a super-easy run in nice weather). 60% of the formula for me would be 110, which would not remotely correspond to any running I might do.
This.
My max HR is quite a bit higher than the 220-age number, and always has been. It is very, very difficult to get to your max HR outside of a VO2max laboratory test, but if your runs feel so easy as to be boring, then it is possible you are running too slowly.0
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