Contraception and the Catholic Church

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  • Bahet
    Bahet Posts: 1,254 Member
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    Why aren't you raising these questions about the unions and McDonalds who are getting a 100% opt out for the whole healthcare bill mandate? They are getting special treatment and unions provide services to the government and also federal employees are members of these same exempt unions. Why the special treatment for them? I thought, afterall, this was about making sure everyone has health insurance, except if you are a union member or work for McDonalds. Talk about double standard.
    You are misinformed. They don't get an opt out for the whole healthcare bill madate. They got a 1 year waiver. They will still have to obey the same laws as everyone else.

    Fox is not news.
  • Elizabeth_C34
    Elizabeth_C34 Posts: 6,376 Member
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    "Onan, however, knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid giving offspring to his brother.
    What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too." Genisis 38: 9-10, yes not the Gospels but the teaching believed by Christians, Jews, and Muslims

    How the heck does this translate to "contraception is evil"? I fail to see this line of reasoning at all.

    If spilling one's seed on the ground is grounds for death, I'm pretty sure there would be no men on the planet over the age of 14.
  • becoming_a_new_me
    becoming_a_new_me Posts: 1,860 Member
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    "Onan, however, knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid giving offspring to his brother.
    What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too." Genisis 38: 9-10, yes not the Gospels but the teaching believed by Christians, Jews, and Muslims

    How the heck does this translate to "contraception is evil"? I fail to see this line of reasoning at all.

    If spilling one's seed on the ground is grounds for death, I'm pretty sure there would be no men on the planet over the age of 14.

    kleenex1.jpg

    Not just for noses
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    I know this topic has died down, but I thought these quotes were interesting --from none other than Antonin Scalia.

    So this is historic--the first time (and possibly the last) that I will ever refer to Scalia's comments positively. On the issue and religion and the larger society, he wrote in a court opinion:
    We have never held that an individual's religious beliefs excuse him from compliance with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that the State is free to regulate. On the contrary, the record of more than a century of our free exercise jurisprudence contradicts that proposition.

    Furthermore,
    When followers of a particular sect enter into commercial activity as a matter of choice, the limits they accept on their own conduct as a matter of conscience and faith are not to be superimposed on the statutory schemes which are binding on others in that activity.

    Couldn't have said it better myself, Tony!
  • KimmieBrie
    KimmieBrie Posts: 825 Member
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    There is no mention that I know of in the Gospels of contraception. Therefore, any specific doctrine on this subject was developed by man, and thus was influenced by any number of psychological, historical, cultural influences, etc. So, in my opinion, these types of doctrines-again, whether catholic, orthodox jewish, etc--have their ultimate origin in some deep psychological need that some men had to control women.
    "Onan, however, knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid giving offspring to his brother.
    What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too." Genisis 38: 9-10, yes not the Gospels but the teaching believed by Christians, Jews, and Muslims

    THIS is your example of why contraception is against Catholic teachings? Probably nothing to do with the fact Onan was an ADULTERER right? The pull out method, really? Pulling out isn't "contraception" and the Catholic Churches own preferred method is a natural birth control - basically monitoring the woman's cycle - which is known to fail miserably.

    Years ago, the Church could make a case that birth control (actual birth control - not the epic fail pullout method) allowed men to take advantage of women with no consequences (children). This day and age, it hardly applies.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    These guys try to dress this up in terms of "religious freedom" but their view of the world is so distorted they can't even keep their own lies straight.

    I present the words of one Rick Santorum:
    (I don't care about Obama's compromise)..."This is simply someone trying to impose values on someone else using the arm of the government

    followed by
    As long as abortion is legal...we will never have rest because that law does not comport with god's law

    and later
    Rights come to us from god, and that when god gives us rights, he doesn't say "well, here are your rights, just do whatever you want with them"; but, in fact, he has laws that we must abide by

    And how does Mr Santorum want to enforce his frothy mix of personal religious values and "god's laws"? You guessed it--using the "arm of the government".

    So basically, in Rick Santorum's America, we are all free -- to live according to Rick Santorum's religious beliefs.
  • BrettPGH
    BrettPGH Posts: 4,720 Member
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    "Onan, however, knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid giving offspring to his brother.
    What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too." Genisis 38: 9-10, yes not the Gospels but the teaching believed by Christians, Jews, and Muslims

    THIS is your example of why contraception is against Catholic teachings? Probably nothing to do with the fact Onan was an ADULTERER right? The pull out method, really? Pulling out isn't "contraception" and the Catholic Churches own preferred method is a natural birth control - basically monitoring the woman's cycle - which is known to fail miserably.

    Years ago, the Church could make a case that birth control (actual birth control - not the epic fail pullout method) allowed men to take advantage of women with no consequences (children). This day and age, it hardly applies.

    This is another example, to me, of why religion is on the decline.

    You can't tell people in 2012, kids growing up with the internet and information at their fingertips, that the reason they have no say in their own reproductive cycle is because of something some backwards king or cleric said in the 2nd century.

    The contraception we use today bares no relation to whatever was used in centuries past. So I think it's the height of arrogance for any earthly person to say that birth control is wrong because God says so. He didn't. Men did. And those men have their own motives and have been wrong consistently.

    To apply such teaching to modern healthcare is laughable.
  • Regmama
    Regmama Posts: 399 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.
  • KimmieBrie
    KimmieBrie Posts: 825 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    There are risks with most medications. You take the information and make an informed decision whether that be based on religious convictions, health risks/rewards, financial implications. The Catholic Church is not against contraceptives because they "might" cause breast cancer.
  • Elizabeth_C34
    Elizabeth_C34 Posts: 6,376 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    You can make the same argument for aspirin.
  • nehtaeh
    nehtaeh Posts: 2,977 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    There are risks with most medications. You take the information and make an informed decision whether that be based on religious convictions, health risks/rewards, financial implications. The Catholic Church is not against contraceptives because they "might" cause breast cancer.

    There are risks with most anything, including having a lot of children. Heck, I was considered "high-risk" simply for having two babies at once.
  • Regmama
    Regmama Posts: 399 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    There are risks with most medications. You take the information and make an informed decision whether that be based on religious convictions, health risks/rewards, financial implications. The Catholic Church is not against contraceptives because they "might" cause breast cancer.
    You're right, they are against it because it severes the unitive bond and is also not open to life. One of the requirements for a sacramental (and valid) marriage is to be open to life. When one contracepts, they are not open to life and are playing "God".

    In regards to NFP, that is to be discerned and is sinful if used in a contraceptive manner. One can abstain from the marital embrace for grave reasons (a real financial burden that another child would present, severe health conditions, etc.) but if not for medical conditions it would be wise to work the the discernment with a spiritual director in order to make sure one does not fall into the contraceptive mentality when using NFP. And, according to the World Health Organization NFP is more effective than most other forms of contraception. And NFP does not change a woman's normal healthy body patterns, does not pollute the environment either.

    This all, from the Catholic POV
  • Regmama
    Regmama Posts: 399 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    There are risks with most medications. You take the information and make an informed decision whether that be based on religious convictions, health risks/rewards, financial implications. The Catholic Church is not against contraceptives because they "might" cause breast cancer.

    There are risks with most anything, including having a lot of children. Heck, I was considered "high-risk" simply for having two babies at once.
    Of course, to live is to risk dying (100% guarantee of that)
  • Regmama
    Regmama Posts: 399 Member
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    There are plenty of non-moral reasons on why one should avoid medical contraceptives, especially those distributed and promoted by the likes of Planned Parenthood and doctors, and that is the connection between them and breast cancer, especially for those who never had children.

    http://www.pregnantpause.org/safe/pillcanc.htm

    And while you may not like the organization, the studies cited are not religious based.

    You can make the same argument for aspirin.
    That's why I eat kiwi fruit ;)
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    I was raised Catholic and in the "pre-Vatican II" era, to boot.As conservative as the Catholic church was in those days, I am still amazed at how reasonable and sane it appeared compared to what passes for Church leadership today.

    In a similar debate in the 1960s over whether states should help make birth control available to low-income women, the following testimony was offered by Cardinal Cushing in Boston:
    “I as a Catholic have absolutely no right in my thinking to foist through legislation or through other means, my doctrine of my church upon others,” the cardinal said, backing — incredibly — a similar policy in Boston, adding, “It is important to note that Catholics do not need the support of the civil law to be faithful to their religious convictions.”

    This certainly supports my memories of a church that, while fairly rigid and stern about its members following its teachings, was much more reasonable and secure with its place in a larger society.
  • poisongirl6485
    poisongirl6485 Posts: 1,487 Member
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    My view on this is that if a church/religious entity wants to operate a secular business such as a hospital, then they need to be subject to the same policies that any other hospital has to abide by. If they don't want to do that, then they can stop receiving public funding from taxpayers.

    I just find it funny that they'll gladly accept all funding from people of all faiths (or non-faiths even), but when it comes to actually helping said people that they take money from, they suddenly get a conscience and refuse it on moral/religious grounds. If they object morally to what these people want to do, then they should also be refusing funding from the public as well.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    My view on this is that if a church/religious entity wants to operate a secular business such as a hospital, then they need to be subject to the same policies that any other hospital has to abide by. If they don't want to do that, then they can stop receiving public funding from taxpayers.

    I just find it funny that they'll gladly accept all funding from people of all faiths (or non-faiths even), but when it comes to actually helping said people that they take money from, they suddenly get a conscience and refuse it on moral/religious grounds. If they object morally to what these people want to do, then they should also be refusing funding from the public as well.

    That has pretty much been the standard (see my quote above from a Boston cardinal 50 years ago and other quotes from an opinion written by Antonin Scalia a few years ago).

    It seems only recently that there has been this outcry from religious fundamentalists (all faiths) that their personal "values" must be given absolute preference under all circumstances. Sometimes I think that a large number of people have just decided to give up on the whole Enlightenment/rational thought thing and go back to a simpler and more comfortable medieval mindset.
  • poisongirl6485
    poisongirl6485 Posts: 1,487 Member
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    My view on this is that if a church/religious entity wants to operate a secular business such as a hospital, then they need to be subject to the same policies that any other hospital has to abide by. If they don't want to do that, then they can stop receiving public funding from taxpayers.

    I just find it funny that they'll gladly accept all funding from people of all faiths (or non-faiths even), but when it comes to actually helping said people that they take money from, they suddenly get a conscience and refuse it on moral/religious grounds. If they object morally to what these people want to do, then they should also be refusing funding from the public as well.

    That has pretty much been the standard (see my quote above from a Boston cardinal 50 years ago and other quotes from an opinion written by Antonin Scalia a few years ago).

    It seems only recently that there has been this outcry from religious fundamentalists (all faiths) that their personal "values" must be given absolute preference under all circumstances. Sometimes I think that a large number of people have just decided to give up on the whole Enlightenment/rational thought thing and go back to a simpler and more comfortable medieval mindset.

    yeah those times were called the Dark Ages.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    My view on this is that if a church/religious entity wants to operate a secular business such as a hospital, then they need to be subject to the same policies that any other hospital has to abide by. If they don't want to do that, then they can stop receiving public funding from taxpayers.

    I just find it funny that they'll gladly accept all funding from people of all faiths (or non-faiths even), but when it comes to actually helping said people that they take money from, they suddenly get a conscience and refuse it on moral/religious grounds. If they object morally to what these people want to do, then they should also be refusing funding from the public as well.

    That has pretty much been the standard (see my quote above from a Boston cardinal 50 years ago and other quotes from an opinion written by Antonin Scalia a few years ago).

    It seems only recently that there has been this outcry from religious fundamentalists (all faiths) that their personal "values" must be given absolute preference under all circumstances. Sometimes I think that a large number of people have just decided to give up on the whole Enlightenment/rational thought thing and go back to a simpler and more comfortable medieval mindset.

    .
    yeah those times were called the Dark Ages.

    I don't even mean that to be sarcastic. I really think that, for some people, the world has just become too complex, the pace of change too fast, and the problems seemingly unsolvable. They have lost faith in science, see research as either continually in conflict with itself or being "agenda-driven" and feel they have no control over their destiny. The other way they feel they can regain control is to revert to a kind of tribalism in which you only have to worry about being loyal to your tribe and its beliefs