Are women fixing the rules of dating?
flimflamfloz
Posts: 1,980 Member
!!! WALL OF TEXT INCOMING !!! :flowerforyou:
Hi, this is probably going to be a controversial topic... So you've been warned. I will also be quite blunt with my wording, and there is going to be some generalisation too (I don't mean bad, I just want to go straight to the point without having to apologize for everything I say). So take a deep breath, and let's hear what everyone has to say.
Now, here is the thing.
From what I see here (and elsewhere), most of the rules of dating are "disadvantageous" or "harsher" to men, or require more efforts from them - and worse (well, it's worse to me
), most men accept that passively: "Well, it's always been like that!".
I mean, even though we know it is not strictly true (and probably never will), both genders aim at being considered as equals in today's society. Yet, dating seems one of the areas where the expectations and reflexes (from both men and women) are still inspired from rules that were established 50 years ago (probably more) when things were indeed really different from now (same as for child care, I know, I know...). Anyway:
- Men must ask the women out (creates massive competition between men for the same women - the hot ones I guess - and makes women more passive in the dating process and more unlikely to ask a man out if they are interested in the said man). These women will then be content to chose between their different suitors (this sucks for you women, IMO :laugh: ).
- Men are generally expected to pay for dates (yet men don't know the outcome of the dates, so might just be taking the girls out for a spin without ROI)
- Men are generally expected to come with the ideas of places for dates, that is the organisation of the first date fall entirely in the hands of men. A bad date (things not going according to plan, not talking about "chemistry" here) is generally considered to be the responsibility of the man.
- Men are generally asked to be the "conversationalists" during the date, i.e. most women will be asking for their men to be "fun", have "banter" (though clearly men like women that have these qualities too). However, if there is silence in the conversation, the responsibility is generally admitted to be on the man's shoulder (even though a conversation is a two way thing).
- On the other hand, I agree that the beauty competition is harsher on the women's side (i.e. the average man is less interested in his look than the average woman in hers), so it is harder for women to stand out from the crowd by their sole looks. However, my understanding is that women can go past the looks easily-ish whereas men can't (we're stoopid I know :drinker: ).
My analysis on this is that women expect men to have what is traditionally seen as a "manly" behaviour: confident, assertive, strong, protector, independent, etc.
Now:
MEN:
- Do you accept these implicit "rules"?
- Do you see these rules as constraints ("It pisses me off!") or as a natural thing ("Well, that's how it should be anyway")?
- Have you ever met women that broke some/all of these rules?
- How did you/would you feel about a woman breaking these rules?
- Would you let her break these rules, and why would you let her break these rules (or not)?
WOMEN:
- What do women think about these rules (good/bad)?
- Since pretty much all men are playing by these rules, how does that behaviour actually mean that a man is "manly"? Or what does this behaviour mean to you?
- What do you think of men * NOT * playing by these rules?
- How would you feel IF men (the society) had the same expectations from you?
- Is it legitimate for women to complain about their "bad dates" if they take so little initiative in the dating process?
PS: Yep, sorry, I know. I am intellectualising this too much, and most people have probably never given this any thought (but on the other hand, these are all things that the society is "pushing" on us, and I find that fascinating) :laugh: I'm no feminist/misogynic either, probably just weird.
TL;DR: Men want to have it easy, and be lazy. Women don't let us. :sad:
Hi, this is probably going to be a controversial topic... So you've been warned. I will also be quite blunt with my wording, and there is going to be some generalisation too (I don't mean bad, I just want to go straight to the point without having to apologize for everything I say). So take a deep breath, and let's hear what everyone has to say.
Now, here is the thing.
From what I see here (and elsewhere), most of the rules of dating are "disadvantageous" or "harsher" to men, or require more efforts from them - and worse (well, it's worse to me
), most men accept that passively: "Well, it's always been like that!".I mean, even though we know it is not strictly true (and probably never will), both genders aim at being considered as equals in today's society. Yet, dating seems one of the areas where the expectations and reflexes (from both men and women) are still inspired from rules that were established 50 years ago (probably more) when things were indeed really different from now (same as for child care, I know, I know...). Anyway:
- Men must ask the women out (creates massive competition between men for the same women - the hot ones I guess - and makes women more passive in the dating process and more unlikely to ask a man out if they are interested in the said man). These women will then be content to chose between their different suitors (this sucks for you women, IMO :laugh: ).
- Men are generally expected to pay for dates (yet men don't know the outcome of the dates, so might just be taking the girls out for a spin without ROI)
- Men are generally expected to come with the ideas of places for dates, that is the organisation of the first date fall entirely in the hands of men. A bad date (things not going according to plan, not talking about "chemistry" here) is generally considered to be the responsibility of the man.
- Men are generally asked to be the "conversationalists" during the date, i.e. most women will be asking for their men to be "fun", have "banter" (though clearly men like women that have these qualities too). However, if there is silence in the conversation, the responsibility is generally admitted to be on the man's shoulder (even though a conversation is a two way thing).
- On the other hand, I agree that the beauty competition is harsher on the women's side (i.e. the average man is less interested in his look than the average woman in hers), so it is harder for women to stand out from the crowd by their sole looks. However, my understanding is that women can go past the looks easily-ish whereas men can't (we're stoopid I know :drinker: ).
My analysis on this is that women expect men to have what is traditionally seen as a "manly" behaviour: confident, assertive, strong, protector, independent, etc.
Now:
MEN:
- Do you accept these implicit "rules"?
- Do you see these rules as constraints ("It pisses me off!") or as a natural thing ("Well, that's how it should be anyway")?
- Have you ever met women that broke some/all of these rules?
- How did you/would you feel about a woman breaking these rules?
- Would you let her break these rules, and why would you let her break these rules (or not)?
WOMEN:
- What do women think about these rules (good/bad)?
- Since pretty much all men are playing by these rules, how does that behaviour actually mean that a man is "manly"? Or what does this behaviour mean to you?
- What do you think of men * NOT * playing by these rules?
- How would you feel IF men (the society) had the same expectations from you?
- Is it legitimate for women to complain about their "bad dates" if they take so little initiative in the dating process?
PS: Yep, sorry, I know. I am intellectualising this too much, and most people have probably never given this any thought (but on the other hand, these are all things that the society is "pushing" on us, and I find that fascinating) :laugh: I'm no feminist/misogynic either, probably just weird.
TL;DR: Men want to have it easy, and be lazy. Women don't let us. :sad:
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Replies
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- What do women think about these rules (good/bad)?
Honestly, I'm fine with them. I am not about to ask a guy out, so he would have to do the asking. If I went on a date, I would offer to pay but it would be nice if he picked up the check since he did the asking. I think the person asking for the date should come up with the idea, but I assume if you date someone after a while, the woman would ask him out and plan something. So he has to plan in the beginning but not so much later.
- Since pretty much all men are playing by these rules, how does that behaviour actually mean that a man is "manly"? Or what does this behaviour mean to you?
I think the rules show that the man is strong and confident in himself.
- What do you think of men * NOT * playing by these rules?
I understand that a guy would be scared in asking a girl out, but if a guy is always scared it would make me doubt his confidence. However, I have no right to judge since I'm scared too.
- How would you feel IF men (the society) had the same expectations from you?
Terrified!
- Is it legitimate for women to complain about their "bad dates" if they take so little initiative in the dating process?
In the beginning, yes. I don't know how someone could come up with a bad date idea. Dinner is classic. A movie is classic. Once you start dating someone though, you should come together to make up ideas for dates.0 -
bump0
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So appropriate. I just back from a 1st date. :bigsmile:
Here is what I think.
- What do women think about these rules (good/bad)?
I think the rules are good. I am traditional, not only in dating, but in other areas in my life. Granted, I am an aggressive girl. I will dive in for a kiss first if I can't resist but still.... I like the man being the pursuer and the "leader" so to speak. Makes me feel more feminine honestly.
- Since pretty much all men are playing by these rules, how does that behaviour actually mean that a man is "manly"? Or what does this behaviour mean to you?
It means confidence, that he knows what he wants, that he's assertive and that he definately has good taste choosing ME. haha
- What do you think of men * NOT * playing by these rules?
I would assume he's either a player (he has women everywhere so doesn't have to work at it) or that he's passive. He's unsure and insecure... not really a trait I would want in a potential mate.
- How would you feel IF men (the society) had the same expectations from you?
I'd feel a lot of pressure!!! Glad I'm not a man. I always say that. I'm SO SO SO glad I'm a woman.
- Is it legitimate for women to complain about their "bad dates" if they take so little initiative in the dating process?
I would never complain about WHERE he took me, but I'd complain (and have, so have my friends) if the guy was not talking, not attentive, self absorbed and only talked about himself, etc.
Now as for the rules you wrote about. Yes, I feel that I "shouldn't" ask a guy out which makes it difficult when I like someone and they're not asking. But then I assume he's just not into me hence why no date invitation.
Men are expected to pay by me when they do the asking... which is about 99% of the time. If I were to ask a guy out (which I wouldn't) then I'd pay. Oh I did pay once for a guy when I asked him out to breakfast. He had taken me out the night before and I offered some breakfast.
As far as for location, again, if the guy asked, yes he should find a location. If I asked, then I'd assume responsibility as planner.. but again, I don't ask.
As far as conversation... I NEVER expect a guy to be the only one talking. I'm shy but I can talk! I like giving my side and opinions on things. I would never make a guy do all the talking. That would actually turn me off. I ask a lot of questions on my dates...
On the looks.. I completely agree. Men aren't as concerned in their looks as we are. But hey, for me, it comes with the territory of being a girl who loves to look good. I enjoy dressing up, doing my hair, make up, etc. There's always going to be hotter and younger chicks. I just have to know that there is not another ME. If a guy is only interested in me for my looks, well sooner than later it will come out and that will get old. If a guy isn't interested me because of my looks, well his loss. Easy peasy.0 -
MEN:
- Do you accept these implicit "rules"?
Not only do I accept them, I find them critical to making it all work. Should we start taking turns leading in the waltz?
- Do you see these rules as constraints ("It pisses me off!") or as a natural thing ("Well, that's how it should be anyway")?
Every society is different. And yes, it has changed in time. I never received a big dowry to marry. Do any of you have wedding chests?
- Have you ever met women that broke some/all of these rules?
I did have a woman who refused to let me buy dinner. We had to split the tab. The longer the night went on, the more apparent it was she didn't like or trust men. Finally, toward the end of the date, I broached the topic. She said she didn't want men buying her things because we would want a payoff. Her words, "First date, dinner, kiss at the door." I told her I had no intentions of a kiss or a second date.
- How did you/would you feel about a woman breaking these rules?
When you get so wrapped up in rules, you forget why you're on a date. But the social norms just drive things. Focus on the person. Do you want a generous man? See how he treats the waiter, see how he tips. Give him a chance to be a gentleman.
- Would you let her break these rules, and why would you let her break these rules (or not)?
Early on, probably not. But if a woman wants to take me on a lovely vacation trip, I'd be all for it.0 -
Bump.
Great topic and interesting since I'm now single and have no idea how to date after being married for so long!0 -
In Western societies, the dating game is like your average casino game (blackjack, sports book, whatever suits your fancy). The women are the casino. The casino always stays in business. The casino always stays in business because the rules favor them.
That’s not to say that the men can’t win in the system. Many people take the casinos for big money. But it is more difficult. That’s why there’s been a rise in popularity in the various Seduction Community experts.
More attractive and younger women have higher demand, so the higher the competition will be for her. Beautiful women can write their own tickets.
MEN:
1. Do you accept these implicit "rules"?
To a degree, Western men have to. Women have. The casino makes the rules.
2. Do you see these rules as constraints ("It pisses me off!") or as a natural thing ("Well, that's how it should be anyway")?
I think it is normal for a lot of men operating in this system to feel that the rules are constraints.
3. Have you ever met women that broke some/all of these rules?
Yes, I have.
4. How did you/would you feel about a woman breaking these rules?
I felt a weight off my shoulders and more relaxed, which probably made me more attractive.
5. Would you let her break these rules, and why would you let her break these rules (or not)?
Yes, because it is a relief.
Now, some other comments based on the OP’s comments.
OP “Men are generally expected to pay for dates (yet men don't know the outcome of the dates, so might just be taking the girls out for a spin without ROI)”
This was talked about in a previous thread. The best strategy here is low cost dates.
OP “Men are generally expected to come with the ideas of places for dates, that is the organisation of the first date fall entirely in the hands of men. A bad date (things not going according to plan, not talking about "chemistry" here) is generally considered to be the responsibility of the man.”
I find this idea difficult to warm up to as well. Planning dates can make a person feel like an unpaid social activities coordinator. Recently, I wondered if I was the only person who felt like this. I’ve talked with some other guys and saw this here, and I’m getting unanimous feedback that a lot of men feel like unpaid social activities coordinators.
With all of this said, there are times when I find dating pleasurable. Relationships should have a free and easy flow to them. If not, something isn't right. A well executed early round date with a kiss at the end makes me feel good.0 -
- Men must ask the women out (creates massive competition between men for the same women - the hot ones I guess - and makes women more passive in the dating process and more unlikely to ask a man out if they are interested in the said man). These women will then be content to chose between their different suitors (this sucks for you women, IMO :laugh: ).
I don't think that's necessarily true. But I tend to fall into the old fashioned category and that may be due to my age. But I think I'd probably ask a guy out if I felt relatively confidant he's interested in me.
- Men are generally expected to pay for dates (yet men don't know the outcome of the dates, so might just be taking the girls out for a spin without ROI)
Definately not true for me. 9x out of 10 I'm going to get my purse out and offer to pay at least my 1/2. Especially on a first date. And I'm prepared to pay, not one that's offering but hoping he won't accept. I look at it as getting to know someone, friendship, etc. If he's not paying for me, there is no expectation that I owe him anything - be that sex, a kiss, whatever.
- Men are generally expected to come with the ideas of places for dates, that is the organisation of the first date fall entirely in the hands of men. A bad date (things not going according to plan, not talking about "chemistry" here) is generally considered to be the responsibility of the man.
Again it could be my age but I try to let the man be the man. But if he ASKS me what I'd like to do or what restaurant I want to go to, I'm more than happy to suggest things Or if he ask me to plan a date, I'l gladly do it and plan a great one!
- Men are generally asked to be the "conversationalists" during the date, i.e. most women will be asking for their men to be "fun", have "banter" (though clearly men like women that have these qualities too). However, if there is silence in the conversation, the responsibility is generally admitted to be on the man's shoulder (even though a conversation is a two way thing).
I find if there are lulls that I am generally the one filling in the spaces. Generally though, I've at least shared several emails and/or phone calls and we generally feel pretty comfortable the first time we go out.
- On the other hand, I agree that the beauty competition is harsher on the women's side (i.e. the average man is less interested in his look than the average woman in hers), so it is harder for women to stand out from the crowd by their sole looks. However, my understanding is that women can go past the looks easily-ish whereas men can't (we're stoopid I know :drinker: ).
Defiately! It's ok for a guy to be larger and have a big gut, etc. But if a woman isn't Barbie, she's considered lazy, disgusting, unattractive. HUGE disadvantage here. Though again, as I get older, I'm finding men as less concerned with looks as they are the rest of the stuff. I chaulk hat up to maturity and them realizing what's more important.0 -
Hope it went well! :drinker:So appropriate. I just back from a 1st date. :bigsmile:
Thanks everyone for contributing to this topic. It's great to have a few people's opinion, and interestingly there is a bit of variety in the answers too!
I guess I should give my answers too :bigsmile:
MEN:
- Do you accept these implicit "rules"?
Yes, I accept these rules to a certain extent. Some less than others though, and I feel some of these rules are really anachronistic or are associated with a traditional vision of "man" that is less and less true these days.
- Do you see these rules as constraints ("It pisses me off!") or as a natural thing ("Well, that's how it should be anyway")?
They are really a constraint to me. I wouldn't mind playing by these rules at all if I felt the roles were more exchangeable.
- Have you ever met women that broke some/all of these rules?
Yes, I have on a few occasions, but the majority was attempting to play by these traditional rules - which admittedly made it easier for me and her (we knew where we stood).
- How did you/would you feel about a woman breaking these rules?
I would actually feel quite special, for me it is a turn on and a clear indicator of interest from the woman. You feel like you are shooting in the dark sometimes as a man, so this is a great way for a woman to show she is interested in a man.
- Would you let her break these rules, and why would you let her break these rules (or not)?
I would let her break the rules (first date, or any other date in fact), but I would feel "emasculated" if she was entirely assuming the traditional role of the man over the course of several dates. By this, I mean that I would try to put the balance at 50/50 at worst - so I would make sure I "take control" of the dating process as much as she does at worst.
In general now:
I find it interesting that some women have said they would feel some pressure if society had the same expectations from them... It makes me feel more normal somehow. That being said, men are supposed to be prepared by society for handling this kind of situation (in the sense that it is the expectation society has put on us, so we can't really say that we didn't know!).
I feel quite strongly about this, and I think this is why I find women that want to share the overall bill for the night attractive: I know they are not in for the money and I know if anything positive happen she didn't feel like she owed me anything.If he's not paying for me, there is no expectation that I owe him anything - be that sex, a kiss, whatever.
This also is very interesting and I feel the same sometimes, although - from what some women have said in this thread so far - their minimum expectations are fairly basic: be a decent guy, don't take them to a junkyard.I’ve talked with some other guys and saw this here, and I’m getting unanimous feedback that a lot of men feel like unpaid social activities coordinators.
I would have asked her: "how about you pay for the entire date then..." :laugh: (another way of asking her: do you want a pay off from me?)She said she didn't want men buying her things because we would want a payoff. Her words, "First date, dinner, kiss at the door." I told her I had no intentions of a kiss or a second date.0 -
There's an easier way to sum up the rules of dating. There are no rules of dating. Everyone is different and you have a near infinite number of combinations available. You could do everything 'right' and still establish zero relationship with a person, because again, people are different and have different standards for everything.0
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There's an easier way to sum up the rules of dating. There are no rules of dating. Everyone is different and you have a near infinite number of combinations available. You could do everything 'right' and still establish zero relationship with a person, because again, people are different and have different standards for everything.
agree. there are no rules, just expectations and if the expectations aren't expressed by thos involved, somebody's gonna cry, get mad, have a tantrum... lol!!! I like being treated like a 'lady', and gentlemen should treat women with respect. and women should respect men. it's not always 50/50 but that's the chance you take. Unless you spell it out you're not gonna know!0 -
Ok so for the most part I dont follow these rules. I've asked men out, I've picked the place and I've paid(my lasy boyfriend and my ex-husband used to call me sugarmamma:grumble: ) I'm trying the more traditional route with letting the guy ask me out but honestly I think the rules are stupid0
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Whilst I usually wait to be asked out, I dont see any problem with women asking.
I would always offer to pay my way.
I have organised dates numerous times. Men usually ask where I would like to go and I dont mind suggesting a meeting point.
I totally cannot believe that men feel under pressure to keep the conversations going!! :laugh: Seeing as women are supposed to talk 4x as much as men!!! I find myself mostly keeping conversations going....honestly! When I meet a guy that makes as much effort as me with talking, then I know he's interested in me as I am in him :bigsmile:
Rules? What rules??
Ah! I know, I totally love a gentleman to be a gentleman! But this has nothing to do with the dating game. Gentlemen are naturally respectful, kind, protective, mannerly and considerate around women. They dont need to organise, talk, pay or ask me out first to have those attributes.
But as the guy above said, we are all different, and admire different things.............so :flowerforyou:0 -
Great topic!
WOMEN:
- What do women think about these rules (good/bad)?
I don't mind the rules, I love being asked out, though to be honest I am usually the one doing the asking...I hate it, but I don't get asked out often enough to just sit around and wait for someone to do it. :laugh:
- Since pretty much all men are playing by these rules, how does that behaviour actually mean that a man is "manly"? Or what does this behaviour mean to you?
As far as the "rule" of paying, I always offered to pay, until one night I was out with a huge group of friends, 50/50 guy to girls. I said that I didn't mind paying, and every single guy said that they'd never let a girl pay. They'd see a girl paying that as a signal that she doesn't care to go out again. And they all said that if they let her pay, never going out with her was also their intention. So that taught me a lot, that every one of them said that. I asked "What if the date is going well, he pays, then we go for after dinner drinks somewhere? Can I buy a round then?" They said maybe on the second date. LOL The very next guy I dated, let me pay my half. thinking that was going to be it, I did. He asked me out again, and once more asked me pay my half. I didn't think that was cool, and never saw him after that. LOL Once you're going out for a while, I think it should be like "You got the dinner tab, I'll pick up the movie tab." I don't expect a guy to completely take care of me. I like doing nice things like surprising him with a tab picked up once in a while.
- What do you think of men * NOT * playing by these rules?
See above.
- How would you feel IF men (the society) had the same expectations from you?
Like I said, i do the asking a lot, so it's ok.
- Is it legitimate for women to complain about their "bad dates" if they take so little initiative in the dating process?
No. A bad date to me would be if I just ended up not liking the person and it was uncomfortable. I try to take initiative in what we do on the date.0
