Social standards for marriage?
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[The marriage is not about how lavish your reception is; it's about two people converging and sharing their lives. I have one single daughter. one daughter already married and one engaged to be married next August. They are all independent and don't expect Mommy and Daddy to pay their way.
Ouch. A person can have a nice wedding with the help of their parents/family and can still be independent... My parents will help with the wedding and such but we pay our own rent, car payments, clothes, utilities, groceries, medical expenses, etc...The only time we get something from them is if they take us out to dinner on our birthdays or we go on family trips. Such as my vacation last week.. We still had to save up for ourselves but we took my parents and sister out for a nice $250 dinner one night.. I think that's responsible and independent.
Sounds like it to me. And there's a big difference between EXPECTING one's parents to pay for a huge wedding, especially beyond their means/ability to do so, and accepting a parent's wish to help out financially with this event , should they indicate they wish to do so. Not all parents will, and that's fine, but accepting their help doesn't make one either spoiled or financially irresponsible.0 -
Great that your daughters don't have an issue with it. However, your comments suggest that you believe women who do want their parents to pay for their wedding are less self-sufficient than your daughters.It works in my world. My daughters are all self sufficient and have no probelm with it. I'm very close to all of them and this is not an issue, so...0 -
[The marriage is not about how lavish your reception is; it's about two people converging and sharing their lives. I have one single daughter. one daughter already married and one engaged to be married next August. They are all independent and don't expect Mommy and Daddy to pay their way.
Ouch. A person can have a nice wedding with the help of their parents/family and can still be independent... My parents will help with the wedding and such but we pay our own rent, car payments, clothes, utilities, groceries, medical expenses, etc...The only time we get something from them is if they take us out to dinner on our birthdays or we go on family trips. Such as my vacation last week.. We still had to save up for ourselves but we took my parents and sister out for a nice $250 dinner one night.. I think that's responsible and independent.
I guess I'm coming across like Scrooge and not making my point. We kicked in for the first wedding and are kicking in for the upcoming wedding. About $2500 each. They can go as big as they want or as thrifty as they want. If that makes me a jerk, then I'm a jerk.
If things are different in your world and everybody is happy about it, then I'm happy for you.0 -
[The marriage is not about how lavish your reception is; it's about two people converging and sharing their lives. I have one single daughter. one daughter already married and one engaged to be married next August. They are all independent and don't expect Mommy and Daddy to pay their way.
Ouch. A person can have a nice wedding with the help of their parents/family and can still be independent... My parents will help with the wedding and such but we pay our own rent, car payments, clothes, utilities, groceries, medical expenses, etc...The only time we get something from them is if they take us out to dinner on our birthdays or we go on family trips. Such as my vacation last week.. We still had to save up for ourselves but we took my parents and sister out for a nice $250 dinner one night.. I think that's responsible and independent.
I guess I'm coming across like Scrooge and not making my point. We kicked in for the first wedding and are kicking in for the upcoming wedding. About $2500 each. They can go as big as they want or as thrifty as they want. If that makes me a jerk, then I'm a jerk.
If things are different in your world and everybody is happy about it, then I'm happy for you.
I don't think the issue is what YOU choose to do, but rather that you're sounding very judgmental about those who choose to pay for their daughters' weddings.0 -
And very judgmental of the women who have their parents pay for lavish weddings.I don't think the issue is what YOU choose to do, but rather that you're sounding very judgmental about those who choose to pay for their daughters' weddings.0 -
This does not have to be expensive. It's not about the wedding anyways. The wedding is just the beginning, and real love stories don't have endings.
Quoted because it's the truest thing I've ever heard about it. And because it made me tear up
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Great that your daughters don't have an issue with it. However, your comments suggest that you believe women who do want their parents to pay for their wedding are less self-sufficient than your daughters.It works in my world. My daughters are all self sufficient and have no probelm with it. I'm very close to all of them and this is not an issue, so...
Not the point I was originally trying to make. I think I was trying to say that a couple should be able to start their life without help. However, if help is offered that is great and it is a decision that is made within the family. I would never try to tell you how your family dynamics should be.
Some traditions change and/or evolve Traditionally, women couldn't smoke, vote or get paid on an equal standing with men. What happened to the Dowry?0 -
This does not have to be expensive. It's not about the wedding anyways. The wedding is just the beginning, and real love stories don't have endings.
Quoted because it's the truest thing I've ever heard about it. And because it made me tear up
My husband and I got married at the Heart of Reno Wedding Chapel, and spent more at lunch afterwards, than we did on the entire ceremony. 13 years together, still going strong and happy as ever
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I don't think the issue is what YOU choose to do, but rather that you're sounding very judgmental about those who choose to pay for their daughters' weddings.
Yep. I didn't express my self correctly. My bad.0 -
And you could always have a courthouse ceremony and then save for a huge party for one of your anniversaries, I suppose.
This is exactly what we plan to do. We married without anyone there but us two.....for our tenth wedding anniversary, we will have the big party, celebrating with our families 0 -
My husband and I got married at the Heart of Reno Wedding Chapel, and spent more at lunch afterwards, than we did on the entire ceremony. 13 years together, still going strong and happy as ever
The first time my husband and I got married was at a park close to where he grew up. The only thing it cost us was to get the judge to show up! (we later had our Catholic wedding)
I'm not advocating that a marriage is any less special if it didn't begin with a lavish wedding. I'm saying that just because parents want to give their daughter a lavish wedding does not mean they are snobby people with a spoiled, dependent princess.0 -
This is exactly what we plan to do. We married without anyone there but us two.....for our tenth wedding anniversary, we will have the big party, celebrating with our families
That was what we were going to do. First "wedding" happened a bit accidentally after a few cocktails while on vacation. Then we said we'd do a vow renewal/huge party at 10 years, but we were trying to have a baby at 10 years. Now we are on 18, and never have gotten around to the party! Maybe for 20 0 -
First "wedding" happened a bit accidentally after a few cocktails while on vacation.
This made me giggle.
Oops! I tripped and came home with a husband! lol0 -
First "wedding" happened a bit accidentally after a few cocktails while on vacation.
This made me giggle.
Oops! I tripped and came home with a husband! lol
That's pretty much what happened. I was 18. My parents were HORRIFIED, to say the least. They love him now though!0 -
I'm saying that just because parents want to give their daughter a lavish wedding does not mean they are snobby people with a spoiled, dependent princess.
I'd agree that just because the parents are footing the bill doesn't mean that bridezilla will appear, but unfortunately, it is a common result of this situation.....
Among the friends I have seen marry recently (and there are lots), I've seen bridezillas and I've seen mature, gracious brides. The 'zillas all had the luxury of spending other people's money, with unlimited abandon. The loveliest brides (in terms of self-centered/spoiled/unattractive behaviors) to see were the ones paying for this themselves, or with modest assistance from their families.0 -
I think any (adult) has the right to get married to whomever, whenever, and where ever; age, finances, gender, etc., be damned. That said, I'd strongly caution anyone under the age of 30 against getting married. It's not about the finances so much, as growing up first. I do feel qualified to caution, since I've been married since I was 18. It's not easy to go through all the changes that the decade of being in your 20s brings as part of a married couple.
People in their 30s are more likely to be financially stable, but that's not a crucial part of marriage to me. If you're able to get help from your families for the wedding, I don't think it makes much difference. I think it's pretty typical for the bride's parents' to pay, at least a portion, if not all, of the wedding.
One thing I do see a lot of engaged couples doing that I totally admit to judging, is putting more thought and planning into the wedding, than into the marriage.
OMG THIS - Every freaking bit of it.
I am not the same person I was at 18 (when I got married) and I'll admit, I probably wouldn't be with my husband today because we're not the same people anymore. I didn't read the other responses to see if you said your age, but regardless -- I don't think financial really should play into it unless as someone else said one or both of you are very deep in the hole with something. It's more of making sure you know who YOU are, and the other person knows who THEY are. I know legally you're an adult at the age of 18, but I really think that number needs to be bumped up to 30 hehe.0 -
First "wedding" happened a bit accidentally after a few cocktails while on vacation.
This made me giggle.
Oops! I tripped and came home with a husband! lol
That's pretty much what happened. I was 18. My parents were HORRIFIED, to say the least. They love him now though!
Haha! Hey, it works though!0 -
The archaic notion that the bride's parents should foot the bill for the wedding goes back to when women did not work outside the home. It was kind of a payoff.
Well that "archaic notion" is still a tradition that is widely practiced to this day. I don't know why parents wouldn't want to pay for their daughter's wedding (unless they just couldn't do it financially).
My parents aren't on Forbe's richest list, but they are definitely well off financially. While it isn't something I'd say they instilled in me, or repeated often, they've mentioned in the past that they are never, ever going to pay for a wedding for me. Since I've never had that "little girl's dream of a big wedding and white dress" it works out just fine for me.
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I suppose I'm looking for some justification here, as well as opinions.
So, do you feel that a couple should have to be financially stable, own a home and have a stable career before getting married? I see college kids getting married often, I see young people having beautiful weddings thanks to their families. I don't expect many people who get married in their early-mid twenties don't have some help from family as to the costs of a wedding unless they do a small one on a tight budget. Shouldn't love for each other and wants/desires be enough reason to be married?
Financially stable: Yes and no. I don't think anyone needs to make a 6-figure+ salary in order to be married. But it is good to look at "financial factors," I'd say. Do they have a mountain of debt that they're paying on? What exactly is the debt for? If they have bad credit, how will it affect you? It's easy to judge people with bad credit (I ought to know--my credit is in the deepest, darkest pit in hell, I'm sure ), but it's really a case-by-case thing. Sounds to me though, reading your other posts, that you and your fiance are okay in terms of finances, and that this isn't an issue for you.
Own a home: No. Most people I know don't even buy a home until they're married. And like someone else said--depending on where you live, renting is normal. However, if someone is living in their mommy's living room because they're too busy playing video games to get a job, then I'd say avoid marriage with them at all costs. Again, that definitely does not sound like you, though, so you're fine.
Stable career: To me, that's not a make-or-break factor in marrying someone, but to others, I suppose it could be. In people our age, especially, a "career" isn't the norm, at least, with people I know, it isn't. It's more like "we're figuring out what we want to do."
Personally, I'm not a fan of weddings. I will not be having one, and therefore will not have to worry about financing one, or getting help from family to finance one. So I can't speak for that. I do admit, though, that I do judge those 20-year-old "bridezillas" and people who spend more on their wedding than a luxury vehicle. I judge them even more when they get divorced once the honeymoon phase is over. Probably because I know so many of them. :laugh: But then I've seen people really put an effort into their wedding and marriage and make it last. It really all depends on the person.0 -
Some people just don't understand THEIR way isn't everyone's way. I saw this more than ever when I was pregnant--people convinced I was too small because they were bigger, people convinced I shouldn't work because they didn't, or shouldn't eat this or do that--not legitimate safety concerns, but narrow-mindedness.
Some people think that you getting married without following THEIR plan somehow diminishes what they did (or are planning). I had a boyfriend once that couldn't handle the fact that he did everything "right" (right schools, etc.), and I didn't, but we ended up in the same career, with my trajectory looking a little higher than his (we're no longer together, obviously). People can be stupid and mean.
The concerns about marrying young are legit--too many people get married before they're ready. But there are plenty of people that marry young and stay happily in love the rest of their lives. I would STRONGLY recommend pre-marriage counseling to couples of any age, because it can help you discover the things each of you assumes about marriage and your relationship that you don't even yet realize you assume (even if you've already set up a house together). It's not about "should we get married," it's about finding out the things that are going to bite you in the *kitten* later and figuring out a plan to deal with them now (or realizing that they're deal-breakers).
So have fun planning your wedding with the resources you have, and ignore the people that think your wedding is less likely/less "real" than theirs because they followed a different playbook.0 -
I don't think you need to wait until you are 30 but you should at least be old enough to drink legally at your own wedding (21 for you non Americans). People mature at different rates. Some people at 21 are plenty mature enough. Perhaps a few teens are but they still need some growth that only comes with time and no amount of maturity can provide. That doesn't mean no teen marriage will work out. The odds are just far more heavily stacked against them. With a 50% divorce rate anyhow the odds aren't that great for anyone so why push it even further?
I do think they should be finished with their education or at least close to the end. Owning a house isn't necessary. Neither is living together before hand, which actually also stacks the deck further against you. Financial stability is nice but I'd say minimal debt (aside from student loans or extenuating circumstances such as medical) is acceptable.
I graduated college at 21, got married at 23 (Hubby was 29 and we'd dated for 4 1/2 years), bought a house at 24, paid off his student loan a month before our first anniversary. He completed his degree (could only take 1 class at a time) 2 years later. Kid 1 was born a month after our 4th anniversary and kid 2 was born just shy of 3 years after that. Aside from that student loan and a total of 2 car payments (paid both off in less than a year each) we have never had any debt (I don't count mortgages as they are not even close to the same as a credit card or something like that.) It's far more important to be married, financially stable, finished with your education, homeowner, etc before you have kids than it is to have those things before getting married.
When we got married we had a beautiful wedding and reception. We did cut a lot of costs though. My sister had gotten married 2 years earlier. I wore her wedding dress and she wore my bridesmaid dress. She had 2 bridesmaids and I had 3 but fortunately my maid of honor's father had gotten married the summer before me and the dress she wore as a bridesmaid then was so incredibly similar to the one's my sister had that the few people who even noticed the differences thought it was just subtle things to have the MOH stand out a bit. :laugh: We didn't have flowers as the church already had some. We didn't have a professional photographer but just had family take video/photos. We had a DJ who was a guy I used to work with. We had the reception at a hotel where we made a deal that they would cut the costs if we had a certain number of guests stay the night there. The meal was buffet style. All told I think it cost about $5000 and we had 250 people with an open bar. My parents paid for most of it but DH's parents paid for the bar tab and DH and I chipped in a bit too. Even then, some of the additional expenses were because my parents wanted them. I would have been fine with chicken and a pasta for main dises but my dad wanted prime rib as an option. I didn't care if we had an open bar or just a champagne toast then a cash bar but my dad thought an open bar was better.
I've been to a lot of weddings over the years. I can't tell you what anyone's flowers looked like or it they had nice centerpieces on the tables. No one really remembers those things. But to this day (19 years later) people still talk about how good the food was and how good the cake was at our wedding. If you are going to put the money towards something make it the food. That's what people remember.0 -
Neither is living together before hand, which actually also stacks the deck further against you.
I'm the opposite--I could never marry someone I hadn't previously lived with. I don't truly know someone until I've lived with them. :laugh: I've lived with 3 boyfriends in the past, and to some people, I guess that seems like a large number or "weird," but I wouldn't change it. I couldn't commit to someone for life without knowing what sharing a home is like with them, living with them every day, etc. is like. That's just me though.0 -
Neither is living together before hand, which actually also stacks the deck further against you.
I'm the opposite--I could never marry someone I hadn't previously lived with. I don't truly know someone until I've lived with them. :laugh: I've lived with 3 boyfriends in the past, and to some people, I guess that seems like a large number or "weird," but I wouldn't change it. I couldn't commit to someone for life without knowing what sharing a home is like with them, living with them every day, etc. is like. That's just me though.
DH an I never lived together. We did spend the nights at each other's apartments pretty regularly though. Plus we got to know what it was like by talking. I didn't have to live with him to know that he doesn't clean the toilet or dust but actually likes to vacuum. It was easy for him to tell that I like to cook but dislike cleaning up afterwards. I knew he snores lightly and has a bit of a bed hog problem. He knew I steal the covers in my sleep and if he accidentally brushes the bottom of my feet it wakes me up (VERY ticklish there to the point that if I have an itch on the bottom of my foot I have to rub it on carpeting. I can't even scratch it.) I knew he was bad with money and he knew I was good with it. I actually can't think of anything that was a surprise or that I didn't know about him until after we were married.0 -
Neither is living together before hand, which actually also stacks the deck further against you.
I'm the opposite--I could never marry someone I hadn't previously lived with. I don't truly know someone until I've lived with them. :laugh: I've lived with 3 boyfriends in the past, and to some people, I guess that seems like a large number or "weird," but I wouldn't change it. I couldn't commit to someone for life without knowing what sharing a home is like with them, living with them every day, etc. is like. That's just me though.
DH an I never lived together. We did spend the nights at each other's apartments pretty regularly though. Plus we got to know what it was like by talking. I didn't have to live with him to know that he doesn't clean the toilet or dust but actually likes to vacuum. It was easy for him to tell that I like to cook but dislike cleaning up afterwards. I knew he snores lightly and has a bit of a bed hog problem. He knew I steal the covers in my sleep and if he accidentally brushes the bottom of my feet it wakes me up (VERY ticklish there to the point that if I have an itch on the bottom of my foot I have to rub it on carpeting. I can't even scratch it.) I knew he was bad with money and he knew I was good with it. I actually can't think of anything that was a surprise or that I didn't know about him until after we were married.
Okay, I have to ask, since I see if often--what does "DH" mean? I'm guessing "Dear Husband" or something like that, it's all I can think of.
You guys are definitely a unique couple--I don't know anyone else who had no "surprises" after living together. :laugh: I've had relationships end because we couldn't live together. I would hate to have married one of them, then come to find that we don't do well sharing a home for longer than a vacation.0 -
DH is dear husband. It's internet message board lingo. :laugh:
Really though you think we're unique? What surprises did you have? How long did you know them before moving in? DH
and I dated for 4 1/2 years before we got married. I'd have been more surprised if there had been any major surprises. 0 -
DH is dear husband. It's internet message board lingo. :laugh:
Really though you think we're unique? What surprises did you have? How long did you know them before moving in? DH and I dated for 4 1/2 years before we got married. I'd have been more surprised if there had been any major surprises.
It has varied--6 months for the first time, 9 months for the other, and my boyfriend now...situation is different--we were "friends with benefits" roommates before we officially became a couple. I learned financial stuff about each of them, hygiene stuff, and in the case of one of them, how they behaved around their child. 0 -
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None of those are things you couldn't have learned by talking or going over to their place. I knew my husband didn't like t dust by sitting in his living room. I knew he didn't clean the toilet very often by using his bathroom. I knew he liked to cook but not clean up afterwards (same as me) when he cooked dinner for me.DH is dear husband. It's internet message board lingo. :laugh:
Really though you think we're unique? What surprises did you have? How long did you know them before moving in? DH and I dated for 4 1/2 years before we got married. I'd have been more surprised if there had been any major surprises.
It has varied--6 months for the first time, 9 months for the other, and my boyfriend now...situation is different--we were "friends with benefits" roommates before we officially became a couple. I learned financial stuff about each of them, hygiene stuff, and in the case of one of them, how they behaved around their child.
Now, if you are going to compare being surprised after 6 months with being surprised after several years then the issue isn't wether or not you live to gether. The issue is simply the time it takes to really get to know someone.0 -
None of those are things you couldn't have learned by talking or going over to their place. I knew my husband didn't like t dust by sitting in his living room. I knew he didn't clean the toilet very often by using his bathroom. I knew he liked to cook but not clean up afterwards (same as me) when he cooked dinner for me.DH is dear husband. It's internet message board lingo. :laugh:
Really though you think we're unique? What surprises did you have? How long did you know them before moving in? DH and I dated for 4 1/2 years before we got married. I'd have been more surprised if there had been any major surprises.
It has varied--6 months for the first time, 9 months for the other, and my boyfriend now...situation is different--we were "friends with benefits" roommates before we officially became a couple. I learned financial stuff about each of them, hygiene stuff, and in the case of one of them, how they behaved around their child.
Now, if you are going to compare being surprised after 6 months with being surprised after several years then the issue isn't wether or not you live to gether. The issue is simply the time it takes to really get to know someone.
Agree to disagree, then. I don't equate life experience with those alternatives, and I *personally* choose to live with a potential marriage partner before I invest my life into them. It isn't a matter of right vs. wrong, it's a matter of personal choice.
I'm genuinely curious as to why, though, you feel a couple who lives together first has more odds stacked against them than a couple who doesn't live together until they're married?0 -
I never said it was "wrong". It's just not something that is necessary. There is noting you can learn from living together that you can't learn from talking, visting, vacationing, and/or staying the night all while still maintaining your own residence.
Agree to disagree, then. I don't equate life experience with those alternatives, and I *personally* choose to live with a potential marriage partner before I invest my life into them. It isn't a matter of right vs. wrong, it's a matter of personal choice.
I do hope that my kids won't live with someone unless they are at least engaged already. IMO it lessens the significance of the wedding and start of the marriage. When DH and I got married we moved in together after the wedding. The bed became ours. The couch was ours. The silverware was ours. It was new and special. If we had lived together the only thing that would have changed after the wedding would have been my last name. It was nice to have a bigger impact to a wedding than just going to sleep on Friday as Bahet Smith and going to sleep on Saturday as Bahet Jones with no other real significant differences.I'm genuinely curious as to why, though, you feel a couple who lives together first has more odds stacked against them than a couple who doesn't live together until they're married?
Divorce statistics. It's not just my opinion. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904561/0
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