T2Ds - Protein, Insulin & Glucose, Oh My! (Marty Kendall)
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RalfLott
Posts: 5,036 Member
"Controversial and complex issues often require more detail than you can pack into a Facebook post. One such area of confusion and controversy is gluconeogenesis and the the impact of protein on blood sugar and ketosis."
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
@baconslave
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/
@baconslave
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How did I know you would beat me to sharing this!
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You guys are the best - always looking out for us!
I re-started adding protein powder to my coffee in the morning. I'm not that hungry at that time but my dawn phenomenon (over active gluconeogenesis) is there and I hoped by adding a whey protein powder it would kick up my insulin a bit and bring my BG down a bit better. At worst, a little extra protein can't hurt. 1 -
I actually understood...some...of that..... I latched on to the endogenous as opposed to exogenous ketosis.
See? I get big words!!2 -
I read the article and I've got that dawn phenomena. I'm also wanting to do intermittent fasting. I'm confused, as I understand it, a fat rich beverage in the morning can help you with delaying your first meal until mid afternoon. However, with the dawn phenomena is that a good way to go? If I were to add protein powder to my morning cup of coffee, would that then mean I've broken the fast much earlier? What I'm asking is, for those with dawn phenomena, is IF still on the table? What's healthy?0
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I think we need to tag @baconslave to add this one to the Diabetes thread sub-forum....
Apologies - I see @RalfLott already did that....
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Sorry I missed it. I was putting the kiddos to bed, and we institute "no computer/internet" at night so we can spend time with each other, not just be elsewhere mentally while we're in the same room.
It will be in there in about 30s.
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I read the article and I've got that dawn phenomena. I'm also wanting to do intermittent fasting. I'm confused, as I understand it, a fat rich beverage in the morning can help you with delaying your first meal until mid afternoon. However, with the dawn phenomena is that a good way to go? If I were to add protein powder to my morning cup of coffee, would that then mean I've broken the fast much earlier? What I'm asking is, for those with dawn phenomena, is IF still on the table? What's healthy?
YMM.... lacking a crystal ball (and boy will I be
if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and don't live to reap the rewards of ditching carbs.. ) "healthy" is getting your BG under control at all times, including combating dawn phenomenon to the extent it's a problem. How high is your morning BG getting, if I might ask? 0 -
yesterday it was 10 and that freaked me out because just this morning it was 6.4 which is about usual. I have not gone over 20 carbs even once and no cheating so I can only conclude that was definitely a dawn phenomena.0
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or 
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yesterday it was 10 and that freaked me out because just this morning it was 6.4 which is about usual. I have not gone over 20 carbs even once and no cheating so I can only conclude that was definitely a dawn phenomena.
That does seem rather high, and also aberrant.
A few more Qs?
When did you stop eating the night before?
How ate your carbs spread throughout the day?
How are your triglycerides running?
Forgive me, but I can't recall - are you on Metformin?
Are you measuring ketones?
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Here's an informative interview on T2D basics with keto-friendly diabetes expert Dr. Brian Mowll. Mike Mutzel of High Intensity Health is the engaging inrerviewer.
Breakfast and IF are among the topics covered, as is the Second Meal Phenomenon, whereby the second meal exerts a lesser gucose effect than the first.
The elephant in the room Dr. Mowll undresses is Stress
, which can easily take your BG up 20+ across the board in the short term and seriously mess with your health in the long run.
https://youtu.be/w5tZ-l90OUE 2 -
yesterday it was 10 and that freaked me out because just this morning it was 6.4 which is about usual. I have not gone over 20 carbs even once and no cheating so I can only conclude that was definitely a dawn phenomena.
That does seem rather high, and also aberrant. A few more Qs?
When did you stop eating the night before?
How ate your carbs spread throughout the day?
How are your triglycerides running?
Forgive me, but I can't recall - are you on Metformin?
Are you measuring ketones?
The night before I had a taco salad with 5 ounces of lettuce, 4 ounces of beef with 1 tsp taco mix I make myself and 1/3 cup sour cream 1/3 cup salsa. I think and at 10 pm I had a small avocado. DARNIT I forgot to track that and I had 22 carbs that day so I oopsed. That added quite a few carbs at ten, I didn't think it had more than a couple. Normally I stop eating by 8 pm but I'd only had about 800 cals that day and I was hungry that late so I just went with it.
Normally the carb spread is fairly even thru the day with my only having 5-6 carbs a meal and rarely hit 20 grams. On this computer i don't have the grease monkey plug in so I don't know what the net carbs are for the avacado but the whole carbs are 13. So maybe that's it. I have to go to my doc to find out what my triglycerides are. I'm due to get my blood tested so I'll make sure to get that done. I'm on metformin and I've been taking 250 mgs 2 times a day sometimes once a day I am such a forgetter of that second dose. ( could be the problem) I am not measuring ketones as I haven't bought the strips.
I haven't seen my Morning bg that high since I started, preprandial for my second meal I'm seeing 4.9-5.5. Maybe it's some weird one off so I'll be more vigilant about monitoring my bg.
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The elephant in the room Dr. Mowll undresses is Stress, which can easily take your BG up 20+ across the board in the short term and seriously mess with your health in the long run.
From my own tracking of things, I would say the 20(ish) increase is pretty close. Sleep is a factor as well, and that may be related to stress.1 -
I really try to get 7-8 hrs of sleep a night, however, the past few evenings I've been binge watching Sherlock Homes, done now and caught up.
My stress may be high, but I'm actually feeling happier eating this way, so I don't know. I do tend towards workaholism as I work 65-70 hrs a week. I can't really change this as my partner is unable to work right now. I've been working this much for years. maybe 10? Need to win lotto or something. 1 -
This might be a good link and videos to share in the T2D group. They aren't all low carb in there but much of this is relevant.0
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yesterday it was 10 and that freaked me out because just this morning it was 6.4 which is about usual. I have not gone over 20 carbs even once and no cheating so I can only conclude that was definitely a dawn phenomena.
That does seem rather high, and also aberrant. A few more Qs?
When did you stop eating the night before?
How ate your carbs spread throughout the day?
How are your triglycerides running?
Forgive me, but I can't recall - are you on Metformin?
Are you measuring ketones?
The night before I had a taco salad with 5 ounces of lettuce, 4 ounces of beef with 1 tsp taco mix I make myself and 1/3 cup sour cream 1/3 cup salsa. I think and at 10 pm I had a small avocado. DARNIT I forgot to track that and I had 22 carbs that day so I oopsed. That added quite a few carbs at ten, I didn't think it had more than a couple. Normally I stop eating by 8 pm but I'd only had about 800 cals that day and I was hungry that late so I just went with it.
Normally the carb spread is fairly even thru the day with my only having 5-6 carbs a meal and rarely hit 20 grams. On this computer i don't have the grease monkey plug in so I don't know what the net carbs are for the avacado but the whole carbs are 13. So maybe that's it. I have to go to my doc to find out what my triglycerides are. I'm due to get my blood tested so I'll make sure to get that done. I'm on metformin and I've been taking 250 mgs 2 times a day sometimes once a day I am such a forgetter of that second dose. ( could be the problem) I am not measuring ketones as I haven't bought the strips.
I haven't seen my Morning bg that high since I started, preprandial for my second meal I'm seeing 4.9-5.5. Maybe it's some weird one off so I'll be more vigilant about monitoring my bg.
A couple thoughts... YMMV, of course.
I have a small avocado at 2g net carbs. ?? MFP will give you total and fiber - the difference = net carbs.
Sour cream = whole, not reduced fat?
Salsa = around 5-6 net carbs?
A personal choice, of course, but IMHO rigorous BG testing is the light that shows every unique T2D down the right path. At a bare minimum, I would urge you to test typical meals on a regular eating and sleep schedule for a couple of weeks. Fasting, before bed, pre-prandial and post-prandial 30,60,90,120 (and 150,180...., if your 120 is not back to your pre-prandial level.
Good idea to track your ketones just to get a sense where your personal threshold is.
500g of metformin us not likely to have any effect. Recommended doses start at 1500g. Personally, I can keep my A1c around 5.0, but ONLY if I keep my carbs down and religiously take 2000-2500g of brand Glucophage XR daily, including 1000g before bed to beat back dawn phenomenon.
If you want to get on top of your diabetes and stay there, you obviously have to have a routine that will work for you year in and year out,. Whether that routine involves strict dietary choices, exercise, insulin, oral meds, etc., is up to you. You have to be diligent, regardless -
forgetfulness and inconsistency are the to diabetics.
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Ok, I'm going to really up how my bg gets screened. This morning, it was 6.4 after the bullet proof and before eating anything it's now 5.3. After I eat I take my meds and I'm doing the june exercise challenge. I'm going to incorperate some meditation during my day as well. I am going to ask if my doc will test me for cortisol. Thanks for the help and advice. That second dose of metformin is going to be seen as critical. I'm ingornat in a lot of ways about my diabetes and unfortunately have been consciously so. It makes me anxious when I read about it but now that I'm on this WOE and convinced I'm doing the best I can, I'm willing to learn more. I have ostrich syndrome.
Thanks again.
Oh, I'm going full fat on everything. The only thing I don't is my hamburger is lean instead of regular. Mostly so I can eat more protein while keeping my fats at my macros. I found I would hit my fats and not my protein on too high fat.0 -
Ok, I'm going to really up how my bg gets screened. This morning, it was 6.4 after the bullet proof and before eating anything it's now 5.3. After I eat I take my meds and I'm doing the june exercise challenge. I'm going to incorperate some meditation during my day as well. I am going to ask if my doc will test me for cortisol. Thanks for the help and advice. That second dose of metformin is going to be seen as critical. I'm ingornat in a lot of ways about my diabetes and unfortunately have been consciously so. It makes me anxious when I read about it but now that I'm on this WOE and convinced I'm doing the best I can, I'm willing to learn more. I have ostrich syndrome.
Thanks again.
Oh, I'm going full fat on everything. The only thing I don't is my hamburger is lean instead of regular. Mostly so I can eat more protein while keeping my fats at my macros. I found I would hit my fats and not my protein on too high fat.
Hurrah! That's the ticket.
I don't know anything about testing for cortisol et al. I can tell when it's up, though, both from how I feel (somewhere in my stomach) as well the otherwise unexplained jump in my BG.
I had one of those "always-on" jobs, too, for the last 10 years of my work life. I was close to lifeless for a while after I retired, while my system regenerated and I caught up on sleep. It is really hard finding the time and energy to add more to your plate - gotta hand it to you!
FYI, in my case, brand Glucophage is much better than some of the Metformin generics, if that's an option.
Any idea why your doc has you on such a low dose? (Can you go to an endo for diabetes management?)
If you can take off the oat bag earlier in the evening, that will give your pancreas and liver a longer break. I find when I talk with newly diagnosed T2Ds, night eating is frequently generating a lot more carbs and calories than imagined/fantasized.
(In my own little recovering-carb-addict world, I have to padlock the food gate with the nuts on the other side after a certain hour to be ok with liquids thereafter. I do have a gin or vodka drink with no-carb companions maybe twice a week - no effect whatsoever on morning BG!
)
Melatonin and tryptophan work well for some people to get them to bed in time. Reducing blue light can be helpful, too. (You can get filter apps for phone and computer screens).
Final tip..... Measure everything you eat with a good scale or measuring cups/spooons. I am always disgusted when I blow it off for a few weeks and find out how grossly I've underestimated my portions.
PS I'm with you on the lean meat - rather get my fat cals elsewhere.0 -
