Getting my proverbial ducks in a row
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Mischieviousme777
Posts: 190 Member
.. before I start this keto journey. I'm mainly concerned about Thanksgiving (and all the carb-heavy temptations that my family makes).
I joined this group hoping that we can help each other stay accountable.
If any of yall could drop a tip or two to this newbie (maybe a recipe too?) I'd appreciate it!
I joined this group hoping that we can help each other stay accountable.
If any of yall could drop a tip or two to this newbie (maybe a recipe too?) I'd appreciate it!
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Replies
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Mashed cauliflower instead of mashed potatoes. Eat more dark meat. We've been told that the white meat is better, but on keto, you go for higher fat. And, just because we eat more fat and less carbs, does not mean you can go whole-hog on fat. Figure out your macros, and stick to it. Do your best not to go over your protein, keep your carbs low, and eat fat to keep you satisfied. If you start feeling light-headed or get a headache, drink pickle juice or chicken broth. You can also add pink salt to water and drink that, but that's gross IMO! LOL!
One big thing...as you are just starting out, keep it simple! Don't try any fancy recipes just yet. Thanksgiving is a hard holiday to start out on as it is very carb heavy in a lot of its traditional foods. So realize that your favorite T-Day foods are not keto friendly. Make a nice green leafy salad with ranch dressing to help fill you up and hopefully you won't miss the other stuff as much. Deviled eggs are good.
Forget low fat condiments and foods. Look for sugar free instead. Get pink salt and use it liberally. It will help combat keto flu. Lazy keto means they only keep track of carbs. Just starting out, it may be helpful to track the other macros as well as calories until you are comfortable knowing how much you are consuming. Keto strips are not necessary, but may help you feel more comfortable knowing if you are in ketosis or not.
Drink a lot of water! 64 oz or more. You will urinate a lot in the beginning, but that's normal. You may be constipated or you may get diarrhea. It all depends on how your body processes all that fat in the beginning. But headaches, lightheadedness, etc means you are low on electrolytes. Pickle juice/broth will help.
There is so much more I wish I had known before I started. There are a lot of differing opinions on the 'net. Research, keep in tune with your body and find out what works for you. Good luck!
Oh...also, just because something says low-carb does not make it keto. Check ingredients first before checking the nutrition. People on low-carb diets (not keto) can eat up to 100 grams of carbs. Keto aims for under 30 grams, 20 is better. I just looked at a recipe someone posted in another thread. Carbs are low...net carbs of 4 grams. If you plan around it, it's ok. But that recipe was for 1/4 cup. That's pretty small for the amount of carbs ingested. So you want to keep an eye out for things like that. If you're going to consume carbs (ie. sugar) make sure it counts!1 -
I disagree on one part of this - on protein - do your best not to be UNDER your limit on protein!!! Do not worry about going over it unless you're tripling your goal! (health issues aside)
Carbs are a hard limit.
Protein is a MINIMUM goal range.
Fats fill in the rest, only to satiety.
As far as the meal, if you feel like a small portion of something will keep you from overeating, have a small spoonful (2-3 bites) of any given dish - just eat as little as possible of anything starchy or sweet. Go for a walk or do dishes after the meal... Each day/week/holiday gets easier!
Drink to thirst - and watch urine color for signs of dehydration, but don't force feed water - that will worsen the electrolyte imbalances.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »I disagree on one part of this - on protein - do your best not to be UNDER your limit on protein!!! Do not worry about going over it unless you're tripling your goal! (health issues aside)
Carbs are a hard limit.
Protein is a MINIMUM goal range.
Fats fill in the rest, only to satiety.
As far as the meal, if you feel like a small portion of something will keep you from overeating, have a small spoonful (2-3 bites) of any given dish - just eat as little as possible of anything starchy or sweet. Go for a walk or do dishes after the meal... Each day/week/holiday gets easier!
Drink to thirst - and watch urine color for signs of dehydration, but don't force feed water - that will worsen the electrolyte imbalances.
Huh...I had heard different about the protein. I heard that going over protein will turn into glucose, so you may as well eat the carbs. I've been striving not to go over my protein macros ever since!
Also, if I have a small bite of a forbidden food, chances are pretty good I will not stop at just a taste! It's how I got fat in the first place! I really envy the people who have that kind of willpower! But yes, if you can stop at just a small spoonful, then let yourself enjoy it!1 -
Jigglypuff9363 wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »I disagree on one part of this - on protein - do your best not to be UNDER your limit on protein!!! Do not worry about going over it unless you're tripling your goal! (health issues aside)
Carbs are a hard limit.
Protein is a MINIMUM goal range.
Fats fill in the rest, only to satiety.
As far as the meal, if you feel like a small portion of something will keep you from overeating, have a small spoonful (2-3 bites) of any given dish - just eat as little as possible of anything starchy or sweet. Go for a walk or do dishes after the meal... Each day/week/holiday gets easier!
Drink to thirst - and watch urine color for signs of dehydration, but don't force feed water - that will worsen the electrolyte imbalances.
Huh...I had heard different about the protein. I heard that going over protein will turn into glucose, so you may as well eat the carbs. I've been striving not to go over my protein macros ever since!
Also, if I have a small bite of a forbidden food, chances are pretty good I will not stop at just a taste! It's how I got fat in the first place! I really envy the people who have that kind of willpower! But yes, if you can stop at just a small spoonful, then let yourself enjoy it!
@Jigglypuff9363 - It can turn into glucose in some people. It does not do this in most people. @Sunny_Bunny_ has more of those reference articles on that than I do... And the process to convert protein into glucose is not efficient - and is only demand driven... So if your blood glucose is level and you're adapted to use ketone energy for fuel, your body has no additional glucose needs and therefore won't convert any protein...
I tell people all the time that I have negative willpower. But as I get balanced (it comes and goes due to a number of factors), certain choices are easier. I may want more, but it won't become a binge eating situation... But that also is not always the case.
I find that if I'm drying for potatoes, I can have a small portion (2 TBSP or so) as long as I eat a lot of fat in my other choices (and I don't maximize the potato taste - don't butter them, don't salt them, etc. within reason - and they won't taste as awesome)...it's easier to manage.
Remember, it is the trifecta of sweet/starchy WITH fats and WITH salt that creates that hugely addictive chemical response in our brains. Keto Christina on YouTube has some great videos about this effect...
I find that compromises are better choices for me that attempting to use my non-existent willpower. I don't recommend trying to replace all the foods you're used to eating - but rather - if there is one thing you know you're doing to eat no matter what - or it can't be a holiday without it - consider finding an alternative. If it's salty - find a salting compromise that hits the same salt factor. If it's a sweet, you might be surprised to find yourself not wanting it. If it has crunch - find something else crunchy, etc.
If I am DYING for pumpkin pie, I need to make a mini pumpkin cheesecake (SUPER EASY) or just the fluff part... basically, cream cheese, butter, pumpkin puree (not much), pumpkin pie spice (it's cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, clove, and sometimes allspice), and a small bit of sweetener (a packet or two like Pyure Organic Stevia) is good to go... There are more advanced versions, but that's super simple...
If I'm going to miss green bean casserole, I do sauteed green beans in bacon drippings, with bacon bits, slivered almonds, and a little butter. Then maybe some sauteed mushrooms on the side or in the mix. If you wanted the creaminess, you could use some heavy cream and dial back on the butter and bacon drippings... You can actually steam the green beans, brown them in the pan a little, etc., then add a sauce. Finely chopped nuts can be used in lieu of breadcrumbs or french fried onions (or use them strategically)....
If it's rolls, make almond buns or something... Or allow yourself half of one if you're not gluten sensitive or something....
There are always choices...
And sometimes it is worth revisiting a "forbidden food." As our taste buds change and our tolerance for certain foods shrinks, we often find that a food is not "as good" as we remember, etc. Something to keep in mind.2 -
Here’s the thing I’ve observed from the Keto-sphere and from my own experience and a little from some people in other groups. All of these things together have solidified my belief that there is absolutely no reason to limit protein at all on a weight loss or lifestyle keto diet. No matter if you’re diabetic or not.
Among the general keto population the idea seems split.
To majorly generalize it, you have a population and reputable resources that tell you too much protein will turn into glucose. They seem to suggest that this results in kicking you it if ketosis and the general belief is that you will fail to lose weight and it will negatively affect blood sugar.
Some names that come to mind with this belief are Ketovangelists, Jimmy Moore, Dr Adam Nally and 2Keto Dudes. This camp seems to back this up with individual blood sugar readings after consuming protein. Blood sugar will rise, that’s true but that’s not the problem they tend to pitch it as being.
In the other camp, they believe in the science that shows that the process of protein becoming glucose (GNG) is first of all, not exactly like that and also a demand driven process and back this up with scientific resources. They admit that blood glucose will rise after consuming protein and fully explain, with evidence, why this is a non issue.
These people are Dr Richard Bernstein, Dr Ted Naiman, Dr Eric Westman, Dr’s Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek, the people at Ketogains, Robb Wolf, Amy Burger and RD Dikeman just to name a few.
My personal observations from my own experience is that I limited protein and followed the first groups advice and sang their praises for months while I quickly dropped 25 pounds but remained quite fat. I hit a wall where I would’ve had to restrict calories considerably below what my activity tracker and every online resource would suggest would be necessary for someone of my size and activity level if I wanted to lose more scale weight. I had reached a normal BMI but my bodyfat according to the Navy calculator was quite “overfat”. Nearly in the obese range even! I believe muscle loss is responsible for my significant reduction in BMR and the fact I was left smaller but still too fat.
It’s been 2 years since I began eating more protein and less fat, and I still have yet to create any more scale weight loss but my bodyfat (Navy calculator) has continued to drop. Considerably more than with the 25 pound loss I initially had.
Let me make sure you got that. I lost 25 pounds with less fat loss than I have had with a 2 pound gain over the last 2 years without exercise. I am now in a position where I really need to build the muscle I lost back if I ever want to get the final bodyfat loss I want.
What I’ve seen in some others that have decided to increase protein and reduce fat a bit, even diabetic people who are warned they need to limit protein even further for some stupid reason (my bias is showing. I’m ok with that. Lol) is that they initially have higher blood sugars until it levels off and they finally achieve even better overall numbers at that time. In many cases finally making improvement in dawn phenomenon too.
As we get older we need more protein and people with high insulin need more protein so their insulin can work on that instead of their muscle. If insulin is high and you aren’t providing a substrate it to work on while you also work to reduce it, you are sacrificing your muscle. Having more muscle is more protective against insulin resistance so it doesn’t make sense to allow it to be reduced by your higher demand for GNG.
The action of insulin on amino acids (protein) is not the same as its action on glucose. Insulin is required for uptake of amino acids into cells like lean tissue and bone. This is not the same as stuffing glucose or fat into already full adipose cells which is what drives insulin resistance.
There’s a huge and detailed write up by Amy Berger to fully understand how all of this works I’ll link for everyone.
But here’s my bottom line.
Jimmy Moore went from obese to healthy weight back to obese in over 10 years of keto and now extended fasting as well and doesn’t seem to have improved his insulin resistance much if at all. He blames being “severely insulin resistant” for this fact. He has always practiced the limited protein and add fat to your already fatty foods method of keto. It’s not working very well for him.
Tyler Cartwright of Ketogains went from being obese to very lean in (not sure how many years) and fully reversed all signs of metabolic disease by concentrating on nutrient density and protein foods and only adding extra fat to maintain weight as needed. It’s working quite well for him.
I know there are plenty of examples of people using the limited protein version that have had great results unlike Jimmy but I will ask if they are lean or just skinny? Because most people would say that I am skinny... but I am far from lean and that makes all the difference in the world.
This is all my opinion and the things above are what influenced my opinion. Others certainly disagree. That’s ok. The only final point I can think to make is,
If the “limit protein camp” is wrong, the price is loss of muscle and lower bmr beyond what occurs from just being a smaller person and difficulty maintaining weight loss or losing further weight.
If the “don’t limit camp” is wrong, the price is slightly slower reduction of insulin resistance and slower overall weight loss without any risk to muscle loss and further reduced bmr beyond what occurs by must having a smaller body.
I would rather be wrong than take that risk.9 -
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Now of course, one of the exceptions to this theory about protein is that if you are following a ketogenic diet for MEDICAL REASONS, that fat ratio is crucial. This is if you're working to prevent seizures, migraines, etc. There are a significant number of medical issues that do require Nutritional Ketosis, but if that was you - you would already know this... Just wanted to add the caveat.
And of course, here, now, and always - please do your own research. Talk to medical professionals (but remember that the data they were taught about diet in medical school is limited and out of date - as long as they're still willing to continue learning, they'll probably learn WITH YOU). Talk to other experienced people. Use your own experiences (nothing under 12 weeks is measurable data, things like anaphylactic reactions/shock excepting)...and so on...3 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Now of course, one of the exceptions to this theory about protein is that if you are following a ketogenic diet for MEDICAL REASONS, that fat ratio is crucial. This is if you're working to prevent seizures, migraines, etc. There are a significant number of medical issues that do require Nutritional Ketosis, but if that was you - you would already know this... Just wanted to add the caveat.
And of course, here, now, and always - please do your own research. Talk to medical professionals (but remember that the data they were taught about diet in medical school is limited and out of date - as long as they're still willing to continue learning, they'll probably learn WITH YOU). Talk to other experienced people. Use your own experiences (nothing under 12 weeks is measurable data, things like anaphylactic reactions/shock excepting)...and so on...
Absolutely true. That’s why I always try to specify a weight loss keto diet when I’m talking about it.
This difference, I believe is a major factor in creating so much misinformation.
It is vital to keep context in mind.2 -
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Thank you all for a very civil conversation that highlights the various "sides" and the room to make decisions based on MY experience and my body. You are all very knowledgeable and passionate and I appreciate that none of you are claiming to have the "secret Formula". REFRESHING!!!6
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My observation is this:
If my mind is right and I fully mean to stay 100% keto, I can do it even if I am surrounded by every trigger food in my world.
If I am waffling and whiney and full of excuses, even if there are zero carby foods in my home...I will drive out and get them any time of day or night that the urge prevails.
The challenge for me is sustaining a healthy thinking process about my food plan and overall healthy-body goals.
I am always seeking non-food alternatives to give myself as small, almost daily rewards. These help cope with the constant bombardment of both the predictable and also the blindsiding temptations.2 -
It's tough to reach the "food is fuel" mindset as opposed to "food is comfort, love, happy, celebratory, the be-all-end-all of happiness" thinking. Been there. Weighed 400+ pounds because every meal was an occasion. Keto helped get my brain right - doesn't matter what I eat as long as it's the proper fuel. Replacement foods are hard on my brain - it's easier for me to abstain than to indulge a few bites. Sugar replacements mess me up almost as much as real sugar. My thinking is simply "I choose not to eat this at this time." Doesn't mean ever again, just not now while I'm still trying to drop the last of the pounds.1
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Now of course, one of the exceptions to this theory about protein is that if you are following a ketogenic diet for MEDICAL REASONS, that fat ratio is crucial. This is if you're working to prevent seizures, migraines, etc. There are a significant number of medical issues that do require Nutritional Ketosis, but if that was you - you would already know this... Just wanted to add the caveat.
I'm doing keto for migraines - I actually have found this not to be true. Keeping carbs <50g and getting plenty of protein >100g has been keeping the migraines away even on the days where I am not necessarily getting high on the fat ratio.
Of course, I still have just over 20% body fat, so it's quite possible that my body is simply making up the difference.
So far the only days I have had headaches are days where I hit >65g net carbs and even then none of the headaches have been migraine level, which is nice. And I do really try to hit the fat ratio most days, but it doesn't appear to be as critical as I originally anticipated. I have been low carb for a long time, and I also IF, so there may be factors at work here beyond the keto.
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tcunbeliever wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Now of course, one of the exceptions to this theory about protein is that if you are following a ketogenic diet for MEDICAL REASONS, that fat ratio is crucial. This is if you're working to prevent seizures, migraines, etc. There are a significant number of medical issues that do require Nutritional Ketosis, but if that was you - you would already know this... Just wanted to add the caveat.
I'm doing keto for migraines - I actually have found this not to be true. Keeping carbs <50g and getting plenty of protein >100g has been keeping the migraines away even on the days where I am not necessarily getting high on the fat ratio.
Of course, I still have just over 20% body fat, so it's quite possible that my body is simply making up the difference.
So far the only days I have had headaches are days where I hit >65g net carbs and even then none of the headaches have been migraine level, which is nice. And I do really try to hit the fat ratio most days, but it doesn't appear to be as critical as I originally anticipated. I have been low carb for a long time, and I also IF, so there may be factors at work here beyond the keto.
I imagine that as nearly all things Keto, the individual macros required vary greatly from person to person, but this is a great starting point for anyone with migraines also as a main concern.
From what I remember, the higher fat numbers were initially developed for seizure control - so related to but different from migraine control.
As always, these things require a good deal of experimentation to find that perfect zone - as well as identify any particular sensitivity culprits, etc.
Thanks for the measurable/verified data, @tcunbeliever1 -
For seizures the recommendation is to start at 4:1 and then lower fat by half points until either you get to 2:1 or you become symptomatic again. For migraines, it's the opposite, they recommend starting at 2:1 and increasing fat by half points if symptoms do not improve. I have been doing well at 1:1 most days, but I do try to get plenty of protein and keep carbs low...I started at 2:1 and that was pretty instant relief. Today is day #58, so far so good.
Not sure why with migraines there are actually better results with lower fat ratios and with seizures there are better results with higher fat ratios - it seems there is more going on physiologically than just being in or out of ketosis.
I'm not sure what is done for cancer or parkinsons or alzheimers, etc. I haven't really studied the recommended process for those issues.2 -
It's always great to have this info... Thank you for sharing!0
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For cancer they do keep protein lower but they also keep total calories low. It is much more of a starvation kind of thing to literally starve the cancer cells and keep ketones as high as possible to fuel the healthy cells.
I think with Alzheimer’s it’s more similar to the seizure protocol. Not as confident with my recollection of that though.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
This woman should be made compulsory reading, she is funny and really easy to read and talks sense. I went back to the first post and have been reading them all. I've learned loads and laughed a lot too! Currently on the posts about Ketosis and Fat Adaption and she's answering every question I've been asking myself. Thanks again for this link!
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chinatowninchina wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
This woman should be made compulsory reading, she is funny and really easy to read and talks sense. I went back to the first post and have been reading them all. I've learned loads and laughed a lot too! Currently on the posts about Ketosis and Fat Adaption and she's answering every question I've been asking myself. Thanks again for this link!
You’re so welcome!
I felt the same way when I first came upon her site. She’s amazingly smart but can hold a layman’s interest so easily all while not dumbing down the information.0
