Ugh... I am eating too much protien
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tmoneyag99
Posts: 480 Member
I have started keto before I ever really did any research regarding how to and all that jazz figuring out I would learn enough in the 1st few weeks to get it right. (cutting out bread, rice, fruit in the first 2 weeks is a great jump off)
But now that I understand about glucogynesis from protein I have been monitoring my macros much more closely. I have 80lbs to lose and I don’t have a lot of muscle to spare.
It appears that I’m hitting my carbs at about 10% of my diet but my Protien is closer to 25-30% and my fat is only around 65%. Most day I hit my MFP Calorie limit but some days I eat my BMR. Only one day (when I ate a 1000 calorie prime rib) did I go completely over. Meh… one day out of 30 isn’t the end of the world.
So what are some ways that you shift your diet from protein to fat. I’m having to cut out cheese because my plumbing is getting all stopped up.
But now that I understand about glucogynesis from protein I have been monitoring my macros much more closely. I have 80lbs to lose and I don’t have a lot of muscle to spare.
It appears that I’m hitting my carbs at about 10% of my diet but my Protien is closer to 25-30% and my fat is only around 65%. Most day I hit my MFP Calorie limit but some days I eat my BMR. Only one day (when I ate a 1000 calorie prime rib) did I go completely over. Meh… one day out of 30 isn’t the end of the world.
So what are some ways that you shift your diet from protein to fat. I’m having to cut out cheese because my plumbing is getting all stopped up.
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Replies
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If you have fat to burn, you don't need to eat as much fat - you body will use consumed fat for ketone production before it will use adipose fat for ketone production. I aim to stay under my carb goal, and over my protein goal (112g/day)...I don't worry about my fat goal, and I don't worry about going over on protein.2
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Before I totally figured it out I wasn't losing and it was because I was trying to hit too high protein goals. You will find the sweet spot soon. Best thing for me was having more broth and vegetables with olive oil and butter.0
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I want to link this article by Bill Lagakos because it references studies that show protein is actually much better for retaining lbm and fat loss during low carb/keto diet periods.
If your goal is to lose any kind of weight, regardless if it's water, muscle, or fat, then by all means don't focus on protein. However, if you would like to keep as much muscle as possible while shedding fat, then you might actually want to hit protein goals and limit the actual amount of fat you eat.
http://caloriesproper.com/high-protein-magic/4 -
Nobody has muscle to spare. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone knowingly sacrifice muscle?
Anyway, there really is no such thing as too much protein.
You can absolutely eat too much fat and make achieving body fat loss difficult or impossible.
Wherever you have learned about gluconeogenesis is not a science based source. I wouldn’t spend much time on their resources.
Read over the link anubis609 provided for sure. Please don’t worry about protein.
Here’s some more reading for you that is evidence based.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=17 -
@tmoneyag99 after three years of "learning" I am starting to understand how little I still know.
In fact I just left my protein the same and limited my carbs to about 50 grams a day and made the drop in carb calories replacing them with fat calories. Thankfully I love coconut and its oil, as well as nuts and 100% cacao bars.
Carbs are not required for a healthy life but Protein and Fats are absolutely required for life period.
@Sunny_Bunny_ is one of my go to posters on this subject leading me to bump up my protein. Carbs were driving my cravings and now for three years I have been able to pig out on protein and fats and still lose weight and gain better health without tracking any longer.
I am an old man going for better quality of life so my WOE may be boring to others but it continues to work for me mainly because I stopped OVERthinking it in my case.
You are the road to success it sounds like so just keep moving forward.
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As people have said, the only way you should be limiting protein is a strict lower limit that you never go beneath. Excess protein does not magically become blood glucose that your body does not need. It is used to rebuild and preserve that precious lean body mass you have. It will even add new lean body mass. Your body is not going to use one of the more precious resources, protein, to damage your body when it could use it to repair and strengthen it instead.6
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As people have said, the only way you should be limiting protein is a strict lower limit that you never go beneath. Excess protein does not magically become blood glucose that your body does not need. It is used to rebuild and preserve that precious lean body mass you have. It will even add new lean body mass. Your body is not going to use one of the more precious resources, protein, to damage your body when it could use it to repair and strengthen it instead.
Agreed that one should never go below the threshold. Excess protein will become glycogen and disrupt you if you are trying to stay on a ketogenic diet though.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Nobody has muscle to spare. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone knowingly sacrifice muscle?
Anyway, there really is no such thing as too much protein.
You can absolutely eat too much fat and make achieving body fat loss difficult or impossible.
Wherever you have learned about gluconeogenesis is not a science based source. I wouldn’t spend much time on their resources.
Read over the link anubis609 provided for sure. Please don’t worry about protein.
Here’s some more reading for you that is evidence based.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=1
There is such a thing as eating too much, including too much protein. Here is a science based, peer reviewed resource:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22139560
"When protein intake surpasses the physiological needs of amino acids, the excess amino acids are disposed of by three major processes: 1. Increased oxidation, with terminal end products such as CO₂ and ammonia 2. Enhanced ureagenesis i. e. synthesis of urea linked to protein oxidation eliminates the nitrogen radical 3. Gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose. Most of the amino groups of the excess amino acids are converted into urea through the urea cycle, whereas their carbon skeletons are transformed into other intermediates, mostly glucose. This is one of the mechanisms, essential for life, developed by the body to maintain blood glucose within a narrow range, (i. e. glucose homeostasis). It includes the process of gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose from non-glycogenic precursors; in particular certain specific amino acids (for example, alanine), as well as glycerol (derived from fat breakdown) and lactate (derived from muscles). The gluconeogenetic pathway progressively takes over when the supply of glucose from exogenous or endogenous sources (glycogenolysis) becomes insufficient. This process becomes vital during periods of metabolic stress, such as starvation."1 -
Gluconeogenesis is thought to be demand driven. Protein does not appear to be converted to glucose unless glucose is needed so those eating more protein do not rely on glucose for fuel.
About the only time protein seems to affect keyosis is when you eat high protein, well over 200g a day, and even then it just lowers the level of ketones. Only a possible problem for those on a strict medically prescribed ketogenic diet.
TBH, protein macro percentages should probably be higher when eating at a caloric deficit. If your goal is 100g of protein ( a reasonable goal) that may be 25-30% while losing, but when you increase calories for maintenance,that may be only 20-25% of your total calories. KWIM?
Plus a bit of extra protein while losing is thought to help reduce the usual muscle losses that come with losing. Holding onto muscle is good for the long run.
Plus protein us the most thermogenic macro. Why not take advantage of that? Right?
For your plumbing, a sodium and magnesium supplement might help. Coconut oil gets things going for some too. I find coffee doesn't hurt either. 2 -
As people have said, the only way you should be limiting protein is a strict lower limit that you never go beneath. Excess protein does not magically become blood glucose that your body does not need. It is used to rebuild and preserve that precious lean body mass you have. It will even add new lean body mass. Your body is not going to use one of the more precious resources, protein, to damage your body when it could use it to repair and strengthen it instead.
Agreed that one should never go below the threshold. Excess protein will become glycogen and disrupt you if you are trying to stay on a ketogenic diet though.
No. No it won't! That's what people are trying to explain here. That is a myth and a misunderstanding of how the body and ketosis works. Setting aside diabetics (who have different hormonal regulation issues), gluconeogenesis is demand driven, not supply driven. Just because there is extra protein, it doesn't mean the body will automatically turn it into glucose. There are several more preferred paths that protein can take. Your body will turn protein into glucose, if it needs the glucose. It won't do it to your metabolic detriment.
Will inadequate protein result in higher ketone levels? Probably. But, there's no reason to suspect that chasing high ketone levels at the expense of adequate protein is beneficial to long-term success, health, and weight loss. You will still be in ketosis, even with really high protein. You might not register 3.5 on the blood ketone meter, but you'll be well above the 0.5 that qualifies as being in ketosis. Heck, averaging over 300 grams a day, I was hitting 0.9-1.5 on the blood ketone meter (when I was dumb enough to be wasting money tracking a number that takes care of itself when you eat right).
Edit: And, if you want to talk ketone levels, you need to be talking blood ketones. Urine and breath ketones are not an accurate reflection of actual ketone levels inside your body. And, protein RDAs are set just high enough to avoid deficiency. They do not represent a number that is adequate for good health. They're very low. Aim higher.6 -
As people have said, the only way you should be limiting protein is a strict lower limit that you never go beneath. Excess protein does not magically become blood glucose that your body does not need. It is used to rebuild and preserve that precious lean body mass you have. It will even add new lean body mass. Your body is not going to use one of the more precious resources, protein, to damage your body when it could use it to repair and strengthen it instead.
Agreed that one should never go below the threshold. Excess protein will become glycogen and disrupt you if you are trying to stay on a ketogenic diet though.
No. No it won't! That's what people are trying to explain here. That is a myth and a misunderstanding of how the body and ketosis works. Setting aside diabetics (who have different hormonal regulation issues), gluconeogenesis is demand drive, not supply driven. Just because there is extra protein, it doesn't mean the body will automatically turn it into glucose. There are several more preferred paths that protein can take. Your body will turn protein into glucose, if it needs the glucose. It won't do it to your metabolic detriment.
Will inadequate protein result in higher ketone levels? Probably. But, there's no reason to suspect that chasing high ketone levels at the expense of adequate protein is beneficial to long-term success, health, and weight loss. You will still be in ketosis, even with really high protein. You might not register 3.5 on the blood ketone meter, but you'll be well above the 0.5 that qualifies as being in ketosis. Heck, averaging over 300 grams a day, I was hitting 0.9-1.5 on the blood ketone meter (when I was dumb enough to be wasting money tracking a number that takes care of itself when you eat right).
Edit: And, if you want to talk ketone levels, you need to be talking blood ketones. Urine and breath ketones are not an accurate reflection of actual ketone levels inside your body. And, protein RDAs are set just high enough to avoid deficiency. They do not represent a number that is adequate for good health. They're very low. Aim higher.
I agree with what you say about ketones. See the link I posted in the previous response for an explanation of how, when, why the body turns protein into glycogen. And to highlight again that I think this should only be a consideration for those of us who are trying to achieve a fat adapted status through a ketogenic diet -- which will trigger the demand you are talking about.
The body's preferred fuel is glycogen. If we don't supply it with enough carbs it will turn to protein to get this so if you eat excess protein it will turn it into glycogen or it will eat up your muscles. To prevent this one needs to balance fat vs protein intake when low-carbing on a ketogenic diet so that the body starts burning fat instead. This is why ketogenic diets are so effective if done right. I was terrified of losing muscle, it happened before when I dieted the usual way once, low calories etc... It seems we agree on the idea of demand but perhaps not yet on when that demand occurs. I just wish to share my research and experience (as well as a lot of others who are trying to be keto here), I failed when I ate too much protein. Consistently. I needed to up the fat, moderate protein, very little carb. It took me a long time to figure this out because I didn't read enough and my idea of low carbing aka Atkins etc. was eat little carbs lots of protein. Once I read all the resources out there it was clear. Again, one can lose weight with just low carbing, and eating proteins and fats -- if one strictly watches one's calories. Ketogenic low carbing is a different method.1 -
You're talking to a long-term ketoer and extreme low-carber. I'm not ignorant of the specific goals and needs of ketosis.
You remain confused about what it takes to be fat adapted. If anything, the fact that you are not fat adapted calls for higher protein at the start of a ketogenic diet. This is why Lyle McDonald recommends staying above 150g of protein a day for the first few weeks, until your body is adapted to fat burning enough to preserve muscle mass. If you are terrified of losing muscle and lean body mass, you should consume more protein. That is the only thing that research consistently shows preserves muscle mass when dieting. The higher the protein, the better the LBM preservation.
Page 56 from "The Ketogenic Diet"
The body will burn glucose in preference to most other fuels. But, converting protein to glucose is an expensive process. It is not the preferred pathway. You will get fat adapted and reduce you body's glucose demand, even eating 200 grams of protein a day. The only requirement is keeping the carbs very low. Protein, alone, is not enough to prevent your body from reaching fat adaption.
I don't know what you mean by you failed with too much protein. You would have to be more specific as to what you mean by that. Protein does not prevent ketosis. It doesn't slow adaptation. It is a beneficial thing and there is very little sense in limiting it. I'm aware that some self-professed keto gurus promote super-high blood ketone levels (therapeutic levels -- not nutritional) and demand restricted protein as a means to that end. Outside of ketosis to treat a medical issue (when the inadequate protein is a lesser concern to the other health issues), I can't see the benefit in following that advice.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Nobody has muscle to spare. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone knowingly sacrifice muscle?
Anyway, there really is no such thing as too much protein.
You can absolutely eat too much fat and make achieving body fat loss difficult or impossible.
Wherever you have learned about gluconeogenesis is not a science based source. I wouldn’t spend much time on their resources.
Read over the link anubis609 provided for sure. Please don’t worry about protein.
Here’s some more reading for you that is evidence based.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=1
There is such a thing as eating too much, including too much protein. Here is a science based, peer reviewed resource:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22139560
"When protein intake surpasses the physiological needs of amino acids, the excess amino acids are disposed of by three major processes: 1. Increased oxidation, with terminal end products such as CO₂ and ammonia 2. Enhanced ureagenesis i. e. synthesis of urea linked to protein oxidation eliminates the nitrogen radical 3. Gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose. Most of the amino groups of the excess amino acids are converted into urea through the urea cycle, whereas their carbon skeletons are transformed into other intermediates, mostly glucose. This is one of the mechanisms, essential for life, developed by the body to maintain blood glucose within a narrow range, (i. e. glucose homeostasis). It includes the process of gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose from non-glycogenic precursors; in particular certain specific amino acids (for example, alanine), as well as glycerol (derived from fat breakdown) and lactate (derived from muscles). The gluconeogenetic pathway progressively takes over when the supply of glucose from exogenous or endogenous sources (glycogenolysis) becomes insufficient. This process becomes vital during periods of metabolic stress, such as starvation."
You do realize what this study, that you posted, actually says, right? That there are three ways to handle excess protein and turning protein into glucose only progressively takes over when there is insufficient glucose. It doesn't automatically activate just because there is excess protein. Every one of these processes would only happen after your body has found all available uses for the 'excess' protein above the minimum (muscle repair, new tissue creation, etc.).7 -
Once fat adapted, I have seen theories that say glucose can be made from triglycerides - the "glyceride". It's thought that is part of the reason that a ketogenic diet becomes muscle sparing once you are fat adapted. That and the fact that it appears to be leucine sparing too.
I could be wrong on that science. I read it some time ago...2 -
Once fat adapted, I have seen theories that say glucose can be made from triglycerides - the "glyceride". It's thought that is part of the reason that a ketogenic diet becomes muscle sparing once you are fat adapted. That and the fact that it appears to be leucine sparing too.
I could be wrong on that science. I read it some time ago...
This is also my understanding. Dietary fat converts at roughly a 10% ratio to glucose. So, 200 grams would represent about 20 grams of glucose. Since the brain needs more than that, it's usually not a huge deal. In general, the combination of all glucose pathways generates an adequate amount of glucose for the brain and glycogen replenishment (of depleted glycogen stores). If it's running short, protein will be used. If it's not, protein will be used for other stuff.
Personally, I would strongly prefer the protein I eat being turned into the necessary glucose and not the protein that resides in my muscles, bones, and other lean tissues.2 -
You're talking to a long-term ketoer and extreme low-carber. I'm not ignorant of the specific goals and needs of ketosis.
You remain confused about what it takes to be fat adapted. If anything, the fact that you are not fat adapted calls for higher protein at the start of a ketogenic diet. This is why Lyle McDonald recommends staying above 150g of protein a day for the first few weeks, until your body is adapted to fat burning enough to preserve muscle mass. If you are terrified of losing muscle and lean body mass, you should consume more protein. That is the only thing that research consistently shows preserves muscle mass when dieting. The higher the protein, the better the LBM preservation.
Page 56 from "The Ketogenic Diet"
The body will burn glucose in preference to most other fuels. But, converting protein to glucose is an expensive process. It is not the preferred pathway. You will get fat adapted and reduce you body's glucose demand, even eating 200 grams of protein a day. The only requirement is keeping the carbs very low. Protein, alone, is not enough to prevent your body from reaching fat adaption.
I don't know what you mean by you failed with too much protein. You would have to be more specific as to what you mean by that. Protein does not prevent ketosis. It doesn't slow adaptation. It is a beneficial thing and there is very little sense in limiting it. I'm aware that some self-professed keto gurus promote super-high blood ketone levels (therapeutic levels -- not nutritional) and demand restricted protein as a means to that end. Outside of ketosis to treat a medical issue (when the inadequate protein is a lesser concern to the other health issues), I can't see the benefit in following that advice.
Is that 150 g protien for a dude or every one?1 -
That 150 grams is for every single person switching to a ketogenic diet (man or woman) regardless of starting body weight. It is a minimum, men and very active athletes might possibly need even more.
Edit: After the first few weeks, protein numbers are usually adjusted to fit individual needs. But, protein intake helps cover your body's glucose needs when the metabolic processes that produce ketones are not running at full steam (like the first few weeks).3 -
That 150 grams is for every single person switching to a ketogenic diet (man or woman) regardless of starting body weight. It is a minimum, men and very active athletes might possibly need even more.
Edit: After the first few weeks, protein numbers are usually adjusted to fit individual needs. But, protein intake helps cover your body's glucose needs when the metabolic processes that produce ketones are not running at full steam (like the first few weeks).
Well nuts. I've been doing this for about a month. Based on what you're saying I'be probably lost LBM. I havent tested Ketones because I keep reading it's worthless.
BUT I haven't touched sugar bread, starchy veggies, or fruit since the day after Christmas. My cheat "moments" was a couple glasses of red wine and a vodka water with a slice of lime. No sauces with sugar or anything like that.
Veggies = spinach, onions, bell peppers, broccoli, avocados, guac, kale,
Biggest mistake was to eat the Egg Bites from Starbucks (they use rice starch)
So at this point how much protein would you suggest I eat?1 -
The 150 grams is a safe minimum. If you eat that much, your odds of muscle being lost is very low. The three weeks is a safe window, your body might have adapted in 1-2 weeks instead. McDonald stresses LBM preservation at all costs. This makes sense, since many of his primary audience for that book was strength and body-builders working on cutting weight without losing muscle. Even if you were only eating 75 grams, and you truly needed the 150 grams, that is only 75 grams a day. If your body never adapted, it would be less than 5 pounds of LBM muscle lost. It is probably a quarter of that, in reality.
There is no use stressing about the past. During weight loss, it is best to err on the upper-side of protein limits. Like I said, the primary thing that preserves muscle is high protein. Ketosis is muscle sparing, but high protein is the most reliable and most effective.
Exact numbers would require you to share your height, weight, age, estimated body fat percentage, and also your goal weight loss rate. The higher the goal rate of loss, the higher the protein should be to provide the protection of LBM. In general, for women, 100 grams is a good number to try and hit. Not stressing if you're under by a few grams, but happy when you are over. It seriously takes a LOT of excess protein to impact weight loss. The only times I have been able to consume enough to significantly lower blood ketones under 1.0 or slow/stall weight loss, the calories that went along with the amounts (4,000+ calories/day) probably had a larger impact than the protein itself. I got below 0.6 on the blood ketones once. But, I had 5,100 calories and about 500-600 grams of protein. It was also a single reading. I was back above 1.0 the next time I tested.1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Nobody has muscle to spare. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would anyone knowingly sacrifice muscle?
Anyway, there really is no such thing as too much protein.
You can absolutely eat too much fat and make achieving body fat loss difficult or impossible.
Wherever you have learned about gluconeogenesis is not a science based source. I wouldn’t spend much time on their resources.
Read over the link anubis609 provided for sure. Please don’t worry about protein.
Here’s some more reading for you that is evidence based.
http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2017/07/gluconeogenesis.html?m=1
There is such a thing as eating too much, including too much protein. Here is a science based, peer reviewed resource:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22139560
"When protein intake surpasses the physiological needs of amino acids, the excess amino acids are disposed of by three major processes: 1. Increased oxidation, with terminal end products such as CO₂ and ammonia 2. Enhanced ureagenesis i. e. synthesis of urea linked to protein oxidation eliminates the nitrogen radical 3. Gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose. Most of the amino groups of the excess amino acids are converted into urea through the urea cycle, whereas their carbon skeletons are transformed into other intermediates, mostly glucose. This is one of the mechanisms, essential for life, developed by the body to maintain blood glucose within a narrow range, (i. e. glucose homeostasis). It includes the process of gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose from non-glycogenic precursors; in particular certain specific amino acids (for example, alanine), as well as glycerol (derived from fat breakdown) and lactate (derived from muscles). The gluconeogenetic pathway progressively takes over when the supply of glucose from exogenous or endogenous sources (glycogenolysis) becomes insufficient. This process becomes vital during periods of metabolic stress, such as starvation."
You do realize what this study, that you posted, actually says, right? That there are three ways to handle excess protein and turning protein into glucose only progressively takes over when there is insufficient glucose. It doesn't automatically activate just because there is excess protein. Every one of these processes would only happen after your body has found all available uses for the 'excess' protein above the minimum (muscle repair, new tissue creation, etc.).
Glad that after these couple of responses you are no longer calling gluconegenesis a "myth" as you did a couple of posts ago.
For the record and for clarity for anyone who might be reading the comments without looking at the study, the paper (and other resources for that matter) don't list any such hierarchal or priority order for gluconegenesis to take place.
I intend for this to be my last response on this thread, my sense is that once one of the discussants starts using language with statements such as "you remain confused" and "You do realize what this study, that you posted, actually says, right?" instead of at least recognizing a disagreement about certain aspects of the issue, the discourse is no longer about the topic but about insisting on proving one's initial point. Obviously a lot of research disagrees with the point you insist on. You can continue to disagree with that research or the experiences of others consistent with that research. I don't think it's ok to assume/imply the other party doesn't know what they are talking about because you are in disagreement.2
