Correlation between strength and size

jacksonpt

There is a theoretical limit on how strong you can get without adding mass... ie a given amount of muscle can only get so strong, and at some point you have to add mass to continue increasing strength.

How much of a concern is this for the average MFPer? Is this a valid limitation, especially given longer cuts many of us are on?

I'm sure for most people, the bigger issues are things like patience, consistency, and intensity. But if someone isn't seeing progress with certain lifts, is a bulk a viable option? Seems like people usually talk about bulks in terms of appearance and body comp... but is the increased strength ceiling worth consideration?

danimalkeys

It depends on your goals. If getting stronger is your main goal, then you need to do what has to be done to reach that goal. If bulking gets you there, then that's what you'd have to do.

I've lost a lot of strength during my weight loss, which is near 70lbs now. I'm lifting to basically maintain LBM as I continue on my journey. I'm not worried about my bench going down or my reps with a certain weight on squats or deadlifts going down. It got too frustrating, so now I do what I can and try to at least maintain where I am, or make small gains. My main goal is the scale and tape measure moving in the right direction, strength is secondary.

Hadabetter

I think everyone has a genetic limit as to how much mass they can add naturally as well. So at some point you just aren't going to get any bigger or any stronger. And I would almost guarantee that point will be smaller and less strong that the folks you see on the body building sites.

Sarauk2sf

It really depends on what your goals are, and in what order. You will eventually stall out, or at least get to a painfully slow progression on lifts if on a long enough cut. Changing your routine may be something to look at - decreasing volume for example.

DopeItUp

It's a valid limitation for sure. Coming from zero lifting background, I started stalling out badly on my lifts after about 2 years in a deficit. Some program touch-ups, some form improvements and I have barely eek'd out a few more gains. At the 2.5 year mark (and 100lbs lost) I am kicking in a bulk. I have instantly set or met 3 PRs just by increasing calories in the first few weeks, if that tells you anything.

Hoping to see some big jumps in the next few months before I go back on my last "big" deficit stretch to get my bodyfat percentage down to a good level.

danimalkeys

It really depends on what your goals are, and in what order. You will eventually stall out, or at least get to a painfully slow progression on lifts if on a long enough cut. Changing your routine may be something to look at - decreasing volume for example.

Even on a surplus and training hard, you still stall out. I never got past certain weights, no matter how hard I trained or how much diagnosis I put into analyzing and fixing my weaknesses.

tomcornhole

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Phoenix_Warrior

In for learnings.

JeffseekingV

There is a theoretical limit on how strong you can get without adding mass... ie a given amount of muscle can only get so strong, and at some point you have to add mass to continue increasing strength.

How much of a concern is this for the average MFPer? Is this a valid limitation, especially given longer cuts many of us are on?

I'm sure for most people, the bigger issues are things like patience, consistency, and intensity. But if someone isn't seeing progress with certain lifts, is a bulk a viable option? Seems like people usually talk about bulks in terms of appearance and body comp... but is the increased strength ceiling worth consideration?

I'm sure there is. I've lost nearly 20lbs since starting and have been able to actually break my bench PB at my lightest weight at around 170lbs. Also my squat and deads have had good numbers. Not quite as good as when I was competing but that was 20 years ago.

I'd give the results to maintaining lean mass while losing fat. And CNS improvements. While my bench isn't much, I used to have to get jacked up to even try 225lbs. One was a big deal. Now, even though I struggle with 3, I can do 1 rep easy enough not to have to have a spotter. Pinning down the form and getting your whole body to fire is helping too.

SezxyStef

I personally am not that concerned.

I am not some genetic snowflake but as a woman I have always gained strengh easily.

My goals however are not necessarily about gaining strenght....perhaps secondary goals.

I lift to maintain LBM while losing weight and will continue to lift because I love it.

Will I ever do a bulk and a cut....I don't know.

When I consistently stall I will just change my routine but I don't expect to see that for a while.

jacksonpt

I guess my more direct question is this:

When someone is having trouble progressing in a lift, most people seems to suggest double checking form, accessory lifts, and the persons routine as a whole.

Is there merit to suggesting the person add some mass, thus increasing the theoretical limit as to how strong they can get? Or, like nutrient timing, is that one of those things that has merit, but is such a small factor in overall progress that it shouldn't be focused on at the expense of other, bigger picture issues (like form, perhaps)?

JeffseekingV

I guess my more direct question is this:

When someone is having trouble progressing in a lift, most people seems to suggest double checking form, accessory lifts, and the persons routine as a whole.

Is there merit to suggesting the person add some mass, thus increasing the theoretical limit as to how strong they can get? Or, like nutrient timing, is that one of those things that has merit, but is such a small factor in overall progress that it shouldn't be focused on at the expense of other, bigger picture issues (like form, perhaps)?

If size or increased muscle mass is one of your goals, I'd do it. It could mean higher lift numbers for sure.

Sarauk2sf

I guess my more direct question is this:

When someone is having trouble progressing in a lift, most people seems to suggest double checking form, accessory lifts, and the persons routine as a whole.

Is there merit to suggesting the person add some mass, thus increasing the theoretical limit as to how strong they can get? Or, like nutrient timing, is that one of those things that has merit, but is such a small factor in overall progress that it shouldn't be focused on at the expense of other, bigger picture issues (like form, perhaps)?

I think that is really depends on goals and where you are from a BF%. I would never recommend anyone bulk if they were not at a healthy body fat level. Adding muscle will increase lifts, as will just adding calories (or at least it should). It's really hard to say how much of the permanent progress (i.e. what remains when not eating at a surplus) is due to increased muscle mass or due to the fact that you strengthen tendons and ligaments when lifting more as well as neuromuscular adaptations.

Everything should be looked at as a whole - and never done at the expense or as a priority to form.

From my experience so far, my lifts go up a lot when bulking, however, as yet, I am not sure how much is due to what, as I have never really sat at maintenance and when I cut my lifts go down after a while (still playing around with the length of my cuts to minimize that). Being female, I really would not have added much muscle mass, especially as I train for strength as a priority as opposed to mass gain. Yet, my lifts have increased from my last bulk to this one. I put this down to form changes, strengthened tendons and ligaments, neuromuscular adaptations as well as some minor gains in muscle mass.How much is what..no idea.

We tend to stall out on some lifts more than others (OHP springs to mind as a particular bish). Personally, unless it is part of a general goal of bulking for muscle mass in itself (as opposed to increasing lifts) I would not bulk if one lift has stalled out but wait for most/all to have stalled out, then assess whether it makes sense from a body composition perspective (assuming that this is a goal also) to bulk. Obviously, if someone's main goal is to increase muscle mass, then bulking, assuming you are at a reasonable BF% to do so, makes sense, and the increase in lifts is an additional benefit (that makes up for the getting fluffy part).

Sarauk2sf

Locking for now so we can better track active threads. OP, if you, or anyone else, wants to add anything, please feel free to PM either myself or SideSteel, including a link to this thread, and we will unlock so you can do so.