Thinking of Giving TrainerRoad A Try...
TheBigYin
Posts: 5,686 Member
It's looking like indoor training time's coming around again. And, as this time I was seriously considering going for something a little more structured than I did last year, I was toying with the idea of grabbing a months subscription to TrainerRoad and seeing if any of the training plans fitted my needs. Luckily, even though the software can't control my Tacx Bushido, owing to Tacx being a little "arsey" about their proprietary control protocols, I've got a proper power meter, so I don't have to rely on "virtual power" or any of that malarkey. I've got the Suunto Ant+ USB Dongle, and obviously the Garmin GSC10 will take care of cadence and speed, as will the Garmin chestband for Heartrate. So, I think i'm probably all set.
I'll probably still use the Tacx TTS software if I have any less structured workouts in mind, as the entertainment value of the DVD software makes rides longer than a hour far more tolerable.
Just wondered if anyone had used it and had any feedback, hints, tips, or warnings to pass on.
I'll probably still use the Tacx TTS software if I have any less structured workouts in mind, as the entertainment value of the DVD software makes rides longer than a hour far more tolerable.
Just wondered if anyone had used it and had any feedback, hints, tips, or warnings to pass on.
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nobody ??0
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Sorry, just saw this. I've been a TrainerRoad member since their Beta days. I cannot say enough good about them to be quite frank. The owners/developers have been personally involved with customers since day one, Coach Chad, the guy behind most of the workouts and training plans, has answered questions for me personally on numerous occasions, and the software "just works." I've turned several of my friends and riding buddies on to the service as well and the one that use it swear by it just like I do. I even keep a subscription for my wife though she never uses it. I chalk it up to kicking a little extra financial support in to a company who's services I love, appreciate, and use the heck out of.
I have done several of their training plans over the last 3 or 4 years and had great success. Most recently, last winter/early spring, I did the Sufferfest Intermediate Road program using the SF vids and TrainerRoad. The end of 2013 saw me training very, very little so I came into January horribly out of shape. I did some base miles rides on TrainerRoad, then started the SF Plan. The combination of TrainerRoad and SF took me from a threshold power (determined via SF "Rubber Glove," TR, and my Power2Max PM) of 152 watts on Feb 1, 2014 to an FTP of 182 in about 90 days.
I capped that off with TrainerRoad's annual "8 Days in California" challenge, a trainer-based sort-of stage race simulation run in conjunction with the Tour of California every year. 8DC kicked the living crap out of me but after recovering I started my strongest summer to date (not saying a ton, I've only been cycling about 4 years) after starting the year the weakest and most out of shape I've been since I started cycling.
I use TR more during the winter, but I use it during the nicer months as well if I'm doing hard interval workouts. I've gotten to the point where if I have long intervals or harder, i.e. threshold or VO2Max, intervals to do I won't do them outside. Not only is it hard for me to find a place to do a 20 minute threshold interval on the road, I also like not having to worry about traffic or what's going on around me when I'm exploring the back of the pain cave after 18 minutes at threshold.
My TR career is here if you're interested at all:
trainerroad.com/career/ntnunk
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Also, yes, you're set. I also use the Suunto dongle, though I've used a Garmin ANT+ stick as well. Both work fine. TrainerRoad doesn't really care about cadence and speed unless you're using Virtual Power, and doesn't log speed anyway. It does log and display cadence.I've got a proper power meter, so I don't have to rely on "virtual power" or any of that malarkey. I've got the Suunto Ant+ USB Dongle, and obviously the Garmin GSC10 will take care of cadence and speed, as will the Garmin chestband for Heartrate.
Virtual Power, though you personally won't need it, actually works really well. I used Virtual Power along with my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine trainer for a couple of years until I got my PM about this time last year. Anyone who is interested in TrainerRoad but doesn't have a PM, make no mistake: Virtual Power works, and works well, as long as you're relatively consistent with tire pressures and setting the rear wheel tension on your trainer, assuming that's applicable to your trainer. The only real downside to Virtual Power is that the power numbers TrainerRoad gives you using Virtual Power may not be accurate to what a true power meter would tell you. It's consistent and repeatable so, relative to using as a tool for your own training it works perfectly well. It is, in fact, a "gateway drug" for power meters. After a couple of years training with Virtual Power and TrainerRoad, I was thoroughly sold on the effectiveness of training with power and wanted the ability to do the same thing outdoors. The only real downsides to Virtual Power are that you can't talk to your buddy and say "My FTP is XXX Watts" and have it really mean anything, and that when/if someone using Virtual Power gets a real PM, the numbers they've been using will have to be scrapped.
For whatever it's worth, I did some testing with VP when I first got my power meter. My Virtual Power numbers were consistently about 20 watts higher than the numbers coming from my power meter. A lot of that offset, possibly most of it, could be tuned out by varying tire pressure and/or trainer tension against the tire.
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Excellent info, many thanks... I signed up last night, thinking rain and winds forecast today, but the sun came out and it may be the last chance for a outdoor rude on the road for a while, but I'm having a trawl through the training plans, trying to come up with something that matches my needs...0
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Good luck! Happy to answer questions or assist if you need me to.0
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well - I gave it a little go - went through the "4 minute power" walkthrough routine, which was ok, and generally made sense. Then it was onto trying the "8 Minute Test" (didn't fancy the 20 minute test as I know i'm coming off the back of a chest-cold - more of which later!)
Problem is, I'm used to the Tacx TTS software that can actually control the resistance on the trainer from the computer via private ANT+ communications. Obviously, if I'm running TrainerRoad, it needs the ANT+ Dongle, so I have to resort to controlling resistance from the Tacx Bushido's "head unit". Basically, it was just a matter of getting the "slope" resistance factor dialled in, so that I was producing roughly the right number of watts for the 8 minute test intervals in the middle of the cassette, at my preferred cadence... So, a bit of faffing around there, and frankly it took me a while to get it sorted.
Okay then - fired up the 8 minute test - pretty much standard issue stuff, gentle spin, steady ramp, couple of sprint intervals to warm up the legs, easy spin then into the meat of the test. Knowing my FTP from a prior test maybe 6 weeks ago, I'd already got the correct figure plugged in, so the display was easy to follow... just try and keep the power line at the top of the block for the first couple of minutes then adjust as needed depending on how you feel.
Well - I've discovered I'm not completely shot of that bloody chest-cold yet... half way through the first 8 minute "test" I started a coughing fit... not good when your heart rate's already somewhere north of 165bpm and you redline at 171. Had to stop pedalling until the world stopped swirling, then continued at a slightly reduced rate. Second 8 minute test, went at the test more gently, but the same bloody thing happened, though at least I was only at 158 this time...
Came out with a seriously compromised FTP score as well, 220w for the FTP - or more meaningfully - 1.88w/kg - couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding with that.
All things considered - software gets a 8/10 (would be 10/10 if they'd actually negotiate with Tacx or buy a licence to the control protocols for the Bushido) However, my overall fitness gets something like a -3/10.
And Obviously, because I now know I'm not ready for anything in the way of serious training yet, chances are I've wasted the first months subscription.
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What are the best options for a power meter? Or is it really worth having? I currently have a garmin 500 with cadence. Thanks.0
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What are the best options for a power meter? Or is it really worth having? I currently have a garmin 500 with cadence. Thanks.
Have a read of this, it's a pretty good roundup...
As to if they're worth having... well - it depends - they'll not make you any faster by themselves - but if you're an analytical kind of person, and prepare to put a little effort into testing and training with the meter, it'll definitely show improvements.
One "real world" example i've found is this... If I know what my FTP (Functional Threshold Power - or the power I can hold for a full hour) is, I can use this to pace myself over shorter or longer distances. Say for example your FTP was 200 and you were doing an "out and back" century ride. The OUT leg is into the wind, so you need to pace yourself - Assuming you're expecting to ride the century in 6 hours of moving time, you can use your FTP to pace yourself into the wind and avoid blowing up or burning out... How? Well - FTP is how hard you can go for a hour. Every time you double the time, you can subtract 5% from the power to get a "maintainable output". so for 2 hours you get 200*.95 = 190W, for 4 hours you get 190*0.95 = 180.5w... So, providing you ride at somewhere between 180 and 190w into the wind, you'll not blow up, and when you reach the turnaround, you can make up the speed...
I think there are going to be some big changes in terms of affordable power meters in the next year or so, for once this may be a good time to sit tight and see what happens by next spring/summer as the gateway is likely to be dropping from $599 to more like $399 (sadly for us in the UK, the chances are it'll be £399 as opposed to a more accurate $/£ exchange rate... the Stages meter for example was a direct $ - £ swap, basically to cover the UK distributors profits and usual ripoff britain tax duties...)
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Nice effort with a chest cold. FTP tests suck enough when you're healthy. I'm jealous of your 220 watt FTP though I must admit. I rode and paced my 20 minute test decenflty last week and barely managed to break 200 (ended up with 202 FTP). It's my highest legitimate threshold power number since switching from virtual power to my power meter.
My test from last week. This was Sufferfest "Rubber Glove."
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What are the best options for a power meter? Or is it really worth having? I currently have a garmin 500 with cadence. Thanks.
+1 on what TheBigYin said regarding power meters. They really help with pacing and are much less subject to outside factors than heart rate. Heart rate is affected by many things: hydration, heat, fatigue, stress, and caffeine just to name a few. Power, on the other hand, is power. 200 watts is 200 watts, regardless of everything else. It's a much more accurate and consistent way to train. However, there is a learning curve and you still have to do the work. Also, power coupled with heart rate data can provide you with even more insight into what's going on with your fitness and fatigue levels once you gain a little experience.
The short answer: it depends. If you want to train and get stronger and faster, and don't mind taking the time to read and understand the concepts behind training with power, power meters are a great tool that can really assist you with your goals. If you just want to ride your bike it's probably not worth the investment.
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Nice effort with a chest cold. FTP tests suck enough when you're healthy. I'm jealous of your 220 watt FTP though I must admit.
Yeah, I'm still suffering a little from the coughing fit, went out yesterday and was completely useless - breathing is just shot again, and my ribs are aching this morning as well... going to take a couple of days off the bike and see how I go. As to the 220... well - i'm pretty much a "Big Unit" - as the 1.88W/Kg testifys...0 -
well - I just suspended the account with TrainerRoad - frankly, until they get together with Tacx and actually use the facility to control the Bushido's brake unit as a proper ergometer, frankly I think I'm better off saving my money and using the existing Tacx TTS software for my indoor riding needs. Plus, the powermeter has now been fitted to the CaadX instead of the roadbike, as I'm going to be using the CaadX as my Winter bike outdoors, and frankly I'd sooner have power metering out on proper rides - plus with the TTS software as it's calibrated to the Bushido and Stages I'm probably within 1% of the actual figure via the bushido's own brake system measurments.0
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I always found my road rides to be much easier compared to those on the trainer (higher speed at lower HR and longer duration at lower level of perceived exertion - at least within the one+ hour mark as that how long I can stay on the trainer for now). I started with Kurt Kinetic t-725w then switched to IpBike. VP is a great way of maximizing my training indoors but when I tried to use it on road rides, it's a hit and miss - on flats with no winds it is pretty good when set to KK and adjusting based on their published curves (relative to RPE) but hit any climb/wind it's garbage (IpBike has KK and speed/cadence/slope based calcs, as well as emulators for other trainers). I'm still waiting for more player's to enter the market and drive the price down before getting a real one. I found power to be the best matrix in determining effectiveness of my training and staying in the zone. Switching to IpBike and using Golden Cheetah for analysis was the best move I ever did, and hoping to acquire a real PM soon. Love to start more structured trainings to improve other matrix but want to lose the last 15+ pounds before starting.0
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Sorry to hear it didn't meet your needs. I can't blame you though as it certainly would annoy me to have a trainer with the Bushido's capabilities and not be able to fully use them.
Personally, I keep toying with the idea of springing for a Wahoo Kickr but every time I think about it I just can't justify it. With power meters on both 'cross and road bikes my trusty Kurt Kinetic Road Machine works just fine.0 -
I got an invite to the beta-test program for a new platform/service called Zwift (www.zwift.com) yesterday. I did my first ride on it last night. It's not really a TrainerRoad competitor yet but it's going to be by the time the public release happens, supposedly sometime in very early 2015.
The premise of the software is actually really awesome. A full Massively-Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game engine and 3D world where riders can ride together, draft off one another, compete in virtual races, and eventually do mass-start events like virtually ride along with the NY Gran Fondo or TdF stage. They are also implementing a "Training Mode" that will allow users to be guided through interval workouts ala TrainerRoad, and they are supposedly partnering with Carmichael Training Systems and some others to supply training plans.
The world isn't fully developed yet but it's already pretty damned good, in my opinion. I did two laps of "Zwift Island" last night, the only virtual world that we have access to yet, and it was more like a real ride than any trainer ride I've ever done. The software is set up to encourage you to hammer on KOMs, chase and draft other riders, bury yourself to avoid getting dropped, etc. and it works. I was supposed to do an endurance-paced, power zone 2 workout last night and I kept finding myself in the middle of long threshold efforts on "climbs" on sprinting like a maniac to keep another virtual rider behind me, or hold his wheel once he managed to get past. It was a lot of fun!
Once the service goes live we could, for example, very easily schedule a regular MFP team training ride, race, or whatever if we were so inclined. I'm looking forward to riding with the software again tonight, and I'm really, really looking forward to it going live and getting a few of my IRL riding buddies on. I predict good things!
TBY: Sorry to say they are already kind of obliquely indicating that the TACX Bushido won't be supported in a controlled mode though they already control Computrainers and Wahoo KICKRs. I've seen a couple of things on their Facebook page where they are basically saying "Sorry, not us. TACX is a closed platform."0 -
oh yeah, I'm well aware that Tacx are being a bunch of cnuts on the topic of opening up their trainers. Thing is, they're pretty much a "hardware" company, all their software is farmed out to a bunch of incompetent wankers coders who have managed to write the single most bug-infested piece of software it's ever been my misfortune to rely upon. The current version I'm using (v3.13) has a memory leakage problem that's been on the known / admitted bug list since version 3.02 and is still not cured.
The moment Tacx drop the "private ANT" interface and open it up, they may as well just throw away their stock of TTS software, because unless people want to run the Real-Life-Video stuff, nobody will use it, plus someone will simply take the GPS routes for the video's and use something like Kinomap to combine it with the Video.
It's annoying, but i'm probably invested to well over £1500 in a trainer that's running on software written by people who appear not to have yet evolved opposable thumbs. If I wasn't so hooked on their video stuff, i'd have ebayed the Bushido and bought a Kickr in a heartbeat.
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I've heard this repeatedly, actually. It's still amazing to me that the software is in as bad a shape as I hear it is this far down the line. No excuse at all.all their software is farmed out to a bunch of incompetent wankers coders who have managed to write the single most bug-infested piece of software it's ever been my misfortune to rely upon.
I keep going back and forth on the subject of power-controlled trainers in general and the Kickr in particular. Oddly enough, given how big a techy and gadget-geek I am, I've not been that interested in these devices until the release of the Kickr. I always felt that having to do the work of selecting the proper gear and maintaining the power on my own forced me to focus more. The fact that up until Wahoo released the Kickr all the platforms were very much closed to the world just encouraged me to stay away. Now that the Kickr exists, and especially now that it exists alongside platforms like Zwift, I'm starting to lean more and more that way.i'd have ebayed the Bushido and bought a Kickr in a heartbeat.
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@TheBigYin Sorry to resurrect the ancient thread, but I just saw that TACX finally got their heads out of their collective *kitten* and rolled out open ANT+ trainer control. Looks like your Bushido is now capable of being controlled by Zwift, and will be supported by TrainerRoad within a few days.
Here's the article on DC Rainmaker's site.0 -
oh bugger. Mines a 2012 model - well before the "Smart" versions (either the Ant+ or the Bluetooth) were launched. I'm still stuffed I'm afraid - all this has done is taken an extra £200 or so from the resale value of my old one...
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Must see if I can find a "parts list" for the Bushido Smart and my one, see just how many components are different - if it's just a circuit board in the resistance unit and a new head (and maybe USB2 ant+ stick) it COULD still be a viable modification...
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Must see if I can find a "parts list" for the Bushido Smart and my one, see just how many components are different - if it's just a circuit board in the resistance unit and a new head (and maybe USB2 ant+ stick) it COULD still be a viable modification...
Seems like that should be very possible.
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Get a power meter on your bike that you can use indoors and out. Unless you are always going to be on it indoors then what use is it? When you ride outdoors without power you are defeating the purposed of training with power in the first place. If you are not going to train with power then its just another number which means NOTHING. I know plenty of people who are like my FTP is this or that and id beat the pants off then as they dont know how to race or tactics. Why waste the money on limited indoor power when a powertap, quarq, or stages allow for both. Training indoors builds the mental toughness and focus you need when you race and having it adjust would only be good for a ramp test and maybe an FTP test but I've found trying those indoors is not the same even though a watt is a watt.
Not really sure what you're trying to say here. I actually have power meters on 3 of my 4 bikes (Road, 'cross, and TT. For me at least, I see power as being pretty useless on a mountain bike) and @TheBigYin has at least one power meter himself. That's not really the issue here or the point of this thread.
Regarding the computer-controlled trainers, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. While certainly not necessary, indeed I don't have one myself, I can very easily see the benefit. Particularly when paired with a service like TrainerRoad or, especially, Zwift.0 -
If I wasn't clear what I am saying is that if you are only going to have one type of power meter having something that can only be used indoors is useless. If you want power go with one where you can get power numbers inside and out. I have TR and Zwift and have used them long before they became popular but I can do those on my bike in the winter and then when I go outside I still have power which is key. If you train with power with a particular intent in mind, (I do as I race as a cat 3 master and until I broke my hand this year was top master cat3 ride in state of WI), every ride should be with power not just those indoors. In summary why by computrainer when a trainer with a good bike power meter will be better in the long run.
I heartily agree with you, assuming the choice is to buy either a Computrainer (or any other smart trainer) or a power meter. Better off in that instance buying a standard "dumb" trainer and a power meter every day of the week. No arguments there from me.0 -
If I wasn't clear what I am saying is that if you are only going to have one type of power meter having something that can only be used indoors is useless. If you want power go with one where you can get power numbers inside and out. I have TR and Zwift and have used them long before they became popular but I can do those on my bike in the winter and then when I go outside I still have power which is key. If you train with power with a particular intent in mind, (I do as I race as a cat 3 master and until I broke my hand this year was top master cat3 ride in state of WI), every ride should be with power not just those indoors. In summary why by computrainer when a trainer with a good bike power meter will be better in the long run.
And pretty much everyone in the thread is in agreement with you... I've got a Stages powermeter on the road and cross bikes (it's the same one, but it's a 5 minute job to swap the crank between bikes) so all my "real" rides have power. The Tacx Bushido has a couple of options with the Tacx Software that either allow the resistance unit to be calibrated to the "real" powermeter OR will allow the Tacx software to read the actual power from the "real" powermeter and integrate it into all the other speed/cadence and other telemetry stuff from the Bushido.
What I was bemoaning, and what you seem to have completely overlooked the potential benefit of (in terms of either modelling "real life" training situations or providing "interest" to longer duration sessions that some of us have to commit to (for calorie burning rather than "race tuning") by integrating an accurate emulated resistance that mimics the images shown on the screen) So, for example - with the current Tacx Software, in winter, with a foot of snow all around, I can spend a hour chasing Tony Martin around his local time-trialling loop, or spend 3 hours riding a large section of the route of the Monte Paschi Eroica, complete with 16% gravel roads - all with the trainer matching resistance to the visuals. After experiencing this kind of "integration" between the computer, the powermeter and the trainer, it's difficult to have to treat the best part of $1000 worth of trainer as a $100 fixed resistance unit that you have to preset before any test, and HOPE that you've got the resistance set correctly enough that you can get through a session by altering the gearing on the bike. It just seems awfully like stepping back 30 years to my first air-resistance trainer.
My original idea when I started this thread, was to use "TrainerRoad" for the shorter, structured training sessions - and hopefully get outside for the longer 3-hour stuff, and failing that, if the weather wasn't fit, then get on the Tacx with the Tacx Software, and one of the "Alpine Classics" DVD's and spend 3-4 hours of riding uphill and watching stunning views.
Didn't happen that way - instead I've spent 6 months of being in and out of hospital, I've lost any fitness I've built up over the prior 3 years, and I'm still struggling to manage getting out for a couple of hours on the road
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Sorry to hear that. I understand as I've tried 3hr sessions and its grueling. Get a fat bike for winter. :-)
My problems this winter lay more with the fact that I wasn't allowed out of the house to train if the temperature was below 5°c due to complications after a very nasty chest infection - the cold air caused pain related to the Pericarditis and Costochondritis that was the hang-over from the infection - indeed, even now i'm still suffering from the Costochondritis in a mild form, and having issues with the residual pleural adhesions which has completely knackered any form and fitness I've built up in the past 3 years.
It may well be that the only riding I get to do between October and March this coming year will be on the indoor trainer - short of jumping on a plane somewhere much further south and living in one of the "geriatric retirement communities" of course...
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This discussion has been closed.