Barbell row form? And rest....
AbsoluteTara79
Posts: 266 Member
Just starting out here. Form on barbell row is not clicking for me. I watched the videos of that dude from SL 5x5, tried that, and it feels SO awkward. His back looks nearly parallel to the floor. Then I watched some other youtube videos where people's backs are more upright. Thoughts on what is correct or if they're all acceptable variations?
And what the heck do you do when you're resting. I sit and watch that stupid timer on the 5x5 app until it gets to 90 seconds. I'm not liking the sitting around part of this. But I can tell that as the weights increase, it will be necessary.
And what the heck do you do when you're resting. I sit and watch that stupid timer on the 5x5 app until it gets to 90 seconds. I'm not liking the sitting around part of this. But I can tell that as the weights increase, it will be necessary.
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First, I think most of us find the row to be awkward. And many of us still struggle to feel like we're engaging the right muscles, or doing it right, even once the weight goes up. So, you're in good company with this one.
I did these wrong for the first few months, and have found that standing up a bit more and having my back parallel to the ground has helped me a lot. It feels like my *kitten* is way up in the air, but I finally feel my lats are working. And that position is also what is recommended in Starting Strength. If you have the book, the row is discussed on pp. 275-277 (3rd ed.) Here's the pics from the book (sorry for quality -- I couldn't find them online so had to take a pic and then post):
As for the rest, you *will* need the time later. But if you don't right now, it's probably OK for you to take less time. I definitely didn't take 90 seconds between sets when I started. I still don't if the reps all feel really easy (which is fairly rare, but happens after a deload sometimes). Others may have differing opinions.0 -
I've had a hard time with the rows too. I've had a trainer help to show me what to do but struggled ever since still. However, today I had the grit strength instructor comment on my row with the super light weight, as I wasn't rowing towards my stomach. I have been pulling towards my chest but even then don't feel it much because stuff gets in the way. If I try to pull the weight more towards my stomach, I don't have much room because I still have a fair amount of extra weight there. Got some tips and a different grip to try out next time. But I don't know for sure on the back aspect.
The rest part bores me too as I stand around waiting but the weight is getting heavy so it's probably a good thing to follow. I didn't a little less at first but I also don't have the app, so I just try and watch the clock at the gym.0 -
oh gawd, that woman looks just as awkward as me. so come to find out, when i felt like i could not get more gawky and imbalanced, i probably had perfect form. that pseudo-squat stance . . .
last time i tried them (saturday) i said to hell with the knee bend, and tried to just make my starting position be pretty close to my last-step-before-pull stance for deadlifts. and then HOLD that position while i pull the bar up. so i'm currently tricking my brain by telling it it's the same lift as the deadlift, just being done with my arms instead of unfolding that hinge at the hip. dk if that's good practice or not, but it's mine atm.
for those who don't feel it - i made the same complaint to a trainer at my gym recently when she offered me a quick form review. she said 'no, you wouldn't' and that lats are just one of those muscles that you don't tend to feel even when they're working like john henry for you. if you don't believe that you're working them, show them a foam roller and see what they say.0 -
canadianlbs wrote: »for those who don't feel it - i made the same complaint to a trainer at my gym recently when she offered me a quick form review. she said 'no, you wouldn't' and that lats are just one of those muscles that you don't tend to feel even when they're working like john henry for you. if you don't believe that you're working them, show them a foam roller and see what they say.
^ This. When I was working with a trainer, doing isolation lat work, I could rarely feel them engage. Especially with low-ish weights. But she assured me I was doing them right. So, I think this is just one of those weird ones.0 -
My boobs get in the way of my rows and I do find it annoying. But the one nice thing about having your back parallel to the floor is I find I can feel my hamstrings working too.0
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I feel so weird just standing there during my rests too, especially when the racks are full and someone is waiting. But I figure everyone waiting knows what rest periods are, and if they are that impatient, they can ask to work in (though with my rack set for my 5'0" height, that might be a lot of adjusting :P ).
If you are looking at youtube for row videos, make sure to search for Pendlay rows. Those are what Sl uses, and they do to the floor. Just plain barbell rows are often shown with the bar hanging and are more upright.0 -
Thanks for the pictures Crabada. I actually do bent over rows rather than Pendlay rows but I still have problems with them and I also don't feel my lats that much during the lift. I do tend to feel it afterwards though in the form of some muscle soreness.
Somewhat off-topic, but someone mentioned the app above: Does anyone else have the little "5" buttons that you select after a set in a really weird pattern where the 3rd and 4th buttons are overlapping each other a lot? It started doing that to me after the last app update on the iPhone.0 -
I feel so weird just standing there during my rests too, especially when the racks are full and someone is waiting. But I figure everyone waiting knows what rest periods are, and if they are that impatient, they can ask to work in (though with my rack set for my 5'0" height, that might be a lot of adjusting :P ).
Same. I have yet to have someone ask to work in when I'm using the squat rack and the height of the bar during might have a small part at least in that factor. They usually just ask how much I have left to do then go away for a bit until I'm done.0 -
I don't know if it really makes a difference, but I don't have much problem feeling the lats (and the traps) working when doing pendlay rows. I like pendlays better cuz they're easier on my lower back, too. But if you're more comfortable doing bent-over rows there really isn't a big problem there.
Basically, my trick is to "activate" the back before pulling. I'm not talking about pushing the shoulders back to get the shoulder blades together. Think rather about trying to do a lat spread pose: take a deep breath in and try to puff out/expand your chest from the sides, and pull the shoulders down. Then pull from the elbows rather than the shoulders. I get the back feels, and i definitely get sore after some volume doing that. Again, maybe the results aren't all that different, but to me this works pretty well.
Hopefully this helps a bit?0 -
I tend to stay a bit more upright when doing rows because my form (and therefore my lower back) suffer when I try to keep my back parallel to the floor. In the more upright position I pull toward my stomach more than my chest. I'm probably doing it all wrong, but I can feel it in my lats the next day, so I'm doing something.
As for the resting, I like to hog the whole power cage and set up 2 bars so I can alternate between 2 moves, resting after each superset but keeping my heart rate elevated. Today I alternated between squats and rows. I do the same on OHP days. As the weights go up, this probably will get too difficult, but for now it works and I can get my workout done in less time.0 -
ephiemarie wrote: »I tend to stay a bit more upright when doing rows because my form (and therefore my lower back) suffer when I try to keep my back parallel to the floor. In the more upright position I pull toward my stomach more than my chest. I'm probably doing it all wrong, but I can feel it in my lats the next day, so I'm doing something.
As for the resting, I like to hog the whole power cage and set up 2 bars so I can alternate between 2 moves, resting after each superset but keeping my heart rate elevated. Today I alternated between squats and rows. I do the same on OHP days. As the weights go up, this probably will get too difficult, but for now it works and I can get my workout done in less time.
That sounds great! My fellow gym members would not like me using two bars at once though. Maybe in a month it'll be dead in there and I can try this.0 -
Oh, yes, about rest, if I'm not catching my breath I'm usually either warming up for my next big move, or stretching for the ones I've already completed. Allows me to compress the lifting sessions a little.
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During rest I usually do my accessories like calf raises, lunges, good mornings, etc. This might not be feasible at higher weights though.0
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I posted this right before I went to bed last night and then went to work - you gals are awesome with all the great responses! I have research and you-tubing to do. I downloaded a sample of Starting Strength, I will probably go ahead and buy it. Hopefully the kindle version has all the same pictures available.
Glad to hear similar sentiments with rest time...I think I've read 1 too many threads on "grrr-rawr-new people at the gym" that I feel a little self-conscious just "sitting there".
I also like the idea of doing some body weight exercises on the side.
And a couple more questions, if I may...
If the rack is occupied, do you use the Smith / dumbbells? And I assume when form starts to get compromised, it's time to de-load, yes?0 -
I have ceased to feel bad or awkward about taking as much damn time as I need between sets. I mean, if someone is super impatient, that's his/her problem, not mine. And I've never had someone ask to work in, so if they're not going to ask, I'm not going to worry about it even one ounce. So there! With that said, I don't lollygag either. If I can tell someone is waiting, I move to another area to do OHP or rows.
If the racks are occupied, I just wait and lurk. Some people will do whatever their second exercise is for the day, but that disturbs my (admittedly weird) sense of order, so I just hang out until someone finishes. Thankfully, my gym has three squat racks and four bench press stations, so it's never very long. I will probably *never* use a Smith machine. I watch people use them and their form just looks so artificial and wrong that I just don't want to go there. Even the folks who try to get under the bar and set themselves up like I would have a weird looking range of motion when they actually squat. Perhaps I'm just being a snob?0 -
I've only used the smith machine once at my coworker's gym. I wasn't sure what it was at the time but saw some girl use it, then we had a guy show us how to use it. I tried with just the bar then realized it was too light with how it is designed. I didn't like the feel of it and the dictation in motion.
Usually if the rack is busy I either do one of the other ones first. I have done bench before squat and I like squats a lot so I'm not afraid I'll try to skip out of them if they aren't first. If it's busy and I want to make sure to nab it next, I'll just sit on some of the leg machines and use them a little. If waiting for deadlift spot I might do leg press to pass the time as I like that one.
I do bench with dumbbells as my accessory but I'm trying to save the accessory work for after the main lifts, if possible. But they can help pass the time on occasion.
And I'd guess that if you can't get your form right after three times at that weight, that would constitute 3 fails and yep, deload on the next one.0 -
The problem with the Smith is that you aren't engaging in using a lot of the muscles you need to use when not using the Smith machine - you aren't getting the full range of motion nor engaging your core/stabilising muscles in the same way. So it's not as beneficial.0
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i do mostly stretching between sets. if something was off about the one i've just finished i try to isolate why and do something about it before the next one. if nothing was off then i do some of my general post-workout stuff in the meantime.
with squats i do a lot of partial isolation, like going all the way down and then just working the first few inches of reversing direction and coming back up. my bum tends to cop out of that lift so it never hurts me to do a bit of extra just to poke it and get it back in the game.0 -
Yeah, I understand the Smith is not as good for a variety of reasons - ROM/stabilizing muscles, etc.. And I don't like the feel of it as well. I go to a pretty small gym - there's 1 rack - no separate bench or anything. I just want to be armed with some practical strategies if it's busy. So far, I haven't had any problems getting the rack. I also go at 8:30 at night so that helps.
Re: Rest and feeling awkward, I agree this is probably a passing phase for me. It's one of those things where I can intellectually process that nobody is thinking a single thing about me...but the brain still worries. Ha! Thanks for the tips!0 -
i'm just thinking, about the smith . . . some day just for curiosity i think i'll try it out after my squats just to see how much more i can lift with equivalent effort. i'd like to be able to have some solid numbers kind of showing how much of the work that machine does for you.
it's useful as a short person's pullup bar, if you set it on the high pegs. i'm a long way from being able to jump up and reach those handles they have for the taller people.0 -
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Rows, I hate rows, rest I like rest.
I tend to do a bunch of upstairs house work or photo editing between sets. I must admit sometimes it will cause me to get distracted and have 5 minute + rest periods.0 -
Hi, I don't know if it's just me because I'm closer to the ground, but all of my rows have my back/torso parallel to the ground and my bumpers are always hitting floor before the next rep. I always thought bent-over rows were characterized by that parallel, but this thread now has me thinking about all the different row variations out there. So I guess I've been doing pendlays this whole time...
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Does anybody use a raised platform to do their rows/DLs with? 0 -
Just want to point out the program calls for pendlay rows not bent over rows.0
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The grit strength class I attend on occasion has rows but they are with much lighter weights and not as bent over with instruction to pull towards stomach. Those are different than what the program calls for, definitely.
I do pendlay now but earlier was not doing that version because the set up required a bit more hassle since I'm still no where near doing 135, which means stacking plates in order to get the bar set to the right height. I have, however, used the platform at my gym to do rows but not the pendlay as it's not at the right height for that. It gave me a place to rest the bar then I'd lift it, inch back a bit, then do the lift, no touching on the ground or anything else. It was kinda fun cause the little metal platform is the only time I can pretend to be tall. lol But now I'm really trying to keep to the as noted above program recommendation of pendlay.0 -
ok here is a question for ya. I just started and the weights I am using are still small so it feels just wrong to set it all the way back down to the floor, same with deadlifts. I feel like my form gets a little iffy when I try to set it back on the floor because the weights are not big enough to elevate the bar very high off the ground. What to do until I move up to taller weights?0
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I definitely recommend finding a way to get the bar higher. Right now for rows I stack a 45 plate and a smaller plate, either 25 or 10 (though a 35 would work instead of the 45, just depends what is lying around and accessible). This way even with the 10's, as I failed again at 95 so had to drop the weight lower, have a better height. Stacking extra plates is also helpful on deadlifts but hopefully you'll be able to move up faster on those. I was so happy to get 135 just because it meant no more stacking plates to do the lift.
You could also do a different form of row (not touching ground) if you can't get a set up with boxes, plates or anything like that, if necessary.0 -
So, have I been wrong in thinking we're pulling to our lower chest? Should I have been pulling to stomach all this time?0
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No, I think for the pendlay you do pull to the chest. Pretty sure the videos of big guys lifting the big plates shows them going to the chest. But I would have to look again to be completely certain.
In the grit strength class, most people are only doing 20-30 lbs total (some just 10) and the bar weighs close to nothing. It's a different type of row as you don't go near the ground and you don't lean over as far. My issue there is like my chest, my stomach can get in the way cause it sticks out as I'm still well in the "obese" category and lot of my weight is there so in class I tend to pull to my chest to get more range of motion going on that particular type of row. But that's not for SL.0 -
Pretty much every horizontal push or pull exercise I tend to just go with lower chest as a general rule. Seems to be where my shoulders are the happiest (and just like the bench press, you want your elbows squeezed in at your sides and not out wide). As for grip width, it's really up to you. I like using just slightly wider than shoulder width. Pretty much my clean grip (also like to throw in a few sets with hook grip from time to time. It's a slightly different feel)
I would be too lazy to stack plates if I didn't have access to bumper plates. The difference between the barbell row and pendlay is minimal anyway. Just make sure you don't strain your lower back and try not to use hip momentum. Trying to pull the bar "through" you is also a nice way to get some more activation.0
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