Training advice for fall marathon PR?
lporter229
Posts: 4,907 Member
I am seeking some advice on how best to train for a PR marathon in November. My most recent marathon was Jan 17th (my second) and I finished in 3:52:XX (can't remember exact). At 43 years old, I have a BQ time of 3:45, which I made it my goal to hit that this year. 7-9 minutes doesn't sound like a lot of time to shave off, but we all know better.
My January marathon was a comfortable effort. My goal was to finish sub 4, but most importantly to have a good, enjoyable experience. I think I achieved that really well. I felt great for the first 22 or so miles. I started to fatigue around 22, but not so bad that I could not maintain my pace. I had pretty even splits the entire way.
Now I am trying to figure out how best to train to get myself to where I can have a similar experience, but finish 8-9 minutes faster. Is this even possible? For the last 6 weeks, I have been maintaining an average of about 30-35 mpw, with plans on ramping that up when I enter into an official training program. My last program maxed out at 46 mpw. I am thinking 55 mpw is reasonable for the next one if I can get myself up to 40+mpw average before I start a training plan.
So my question is, am I better off trying to ramp that mileage up now or will that just lead to burn out? Is this a sufficient amount of base mileage for now to achieve my goal? I currently also spend several days a week doing strength training and yoga. If I increase my mileage, some of that will have to give. If you were in my shoes, what would be your plan of attack between now and November? Any experienced thoughts are appreciated!!
My January marathon was a comfortable effort. My goal was to finish sub 4, but most importantly to have a good, enjoyable experience. I think I achieved that really well. I felt great for the first 22 or so miles. I started to fatigue around 22, but not so bad that I could not maintain my pace. I had pretty even splits the entire way.
Now I am trying to figure out how best to train to get myself to where I can have a similar experience, but finish 8-9 minutes faster. Is this even possible? For the last 6 weeks, I have been maintaining an average of about 30-35 mpw, with plans on ramping that up when I enter into an official training program. My last program maxed out at 46 mpw. I am thinking 55 mpw is reasonable for the next one if I can get myself up to 40+mpw average before I start a training plan.
So my question is, am I better off trying to ramp that mileage up now or will that just lead to burn out? Is this a sufficient amount of base mileage for now to achieve my goal? I currently also spend several days a week doing strength training and yoga. If I increase my mileage, some of that will have to give. If you were in my shoes, what would be your plan of attack between now and November? Any experienced thoughts are appreciated!!
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What I did in the year between my first and second marathon, which were an hour apart in times, was concentrate on building my volume from 20 to 45-50 MPW. However, I neglected to do an acceptable amount of long runs, but the mileage was there.
Before starting any of that, I would get a fresh race (Heart Mini, maybe?) to use as a predictor to see if the BQ time is in the realm of possibility. You can do McMillan +10-20min, or HMx2 + 10-20min as a rough estimate and hope your time falls somewhat in the middle. I would also choose your marathon carefully. You're near me, and I am racing Columbus in late October for its optimum course and seasonal weather conditions. Due to a conflict with football season, they took the hill at mile 20ish out, so now it's a ridiculously flat course.0 -
How long have you been running?? You didn't give a lot of background to this, but I think it's within your reach. Your "peak week" for marathon training wasn't super high. I think you would benefit from slowly increasing mileage.
My marathon progression has been:
2013:
4:09, 3:47, 3:45, 3:43
2014:
3:27, 3:31, 3:26
2015:
3:19
From my experience, my best shot at shaving a lot of time off my marathon was after taking a break from marathon distance. I found marathons to be addictive. Doing "back to back" marathon training/racing/running can be not so great for my PRs.
Times when I shaved lots of time of my marathon:
1- took 4+ months off from the marathon+ distance
2- taking 2 month "off season" of no long runs over 13ish mile0 -
vcphil- I have been running since my mid twenties, but I did not get serious about trying to increase my speed until about 2 years ago. I have done about 10 HMs between 2004-2015. I did my first full in 2013 and my second in Jan. I tend to take time off between races. Looks like you saw a significant drop between your first and second...what do you attribute that to, just experience? And dang, you are fast!
Doug-Heart-mini last weekend was 1:45:17, but I was not pushing for a PR. HM PR was Dayton in October 1:43:56. I feel reasonably comfortable I could do that again. All predictors I have looked at have me at a solid 3:42 or better, but I know they tend to be aggressive sometimes. I am looking at Columbus or the Indy Monumental as my options for the full. Both are supposed to be flat and fast. Leaning towards Indy because it's a little later in the fall and has a better chance of cooler temps. I realize this is going to be a challenge, but I feel like I am up for it.0 -
1:45 half on a holy course is FAST. I would suggest focusing doing whatever you have been doing the past 2 years. I am sure you will see improvements in the mararthon times. When I was a 1:41 halfer, I was running low 3:40s. I think you are very close & it would be a very good goal for a late fall marathon!
To answer your question- . I didn't "train" as much as I should have for the first marathon. I was running high mileage, but I was not doing enough 2+ hour long runs (I ran a 14, 16 & 19 miler).. :-)0 -
I have no real advices as I'm also hoping to BQ in May (I need a 9 min PR) and until then I won't know if what I'm doing is right...
But I ran a 3:44 full 6 months after running a 1:45 half so I think you definitely can do it since your half PR is faster than mine.
I would think your best bet is to build your mileage up slowly since you have some time before starting real focused training. Going from a 30-35 mpw base to a 40-45mpw base would be a good move. You can't ever run too many easy miles
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lporter229 wrote: »vcphil- I have been running since my mid twenties, but I did not get serious about trying to increase my speed until about 2 years ago. I have done about 10 HMs between 2004-2015. I did my first full in 2013 and my second in Jan. I tend to take time off between races. Looks like you saw a significant drop between your first and second...what do you attribute that to, just experience? And dang, you are fast!
Doug-Heart-mini last weekend was 1:45:17, but I was not pushing for a PR. HM PR was Dayton in October 1:43:56. I feel reasonably comfortable I could do that again. All predictors I have looked at have me at a solid 3:42 or better, but I know they tend to be aggressive sometimes. I am looking at Columbus or the Indy Monumental as my options for the full. Both are supposed to be flat and fast. Leaning towards Indy because it's a little later in the fall and has a better chance of cooler temps. I realize this is going to be a challenge, but I feel like I am up for it.
My first was a mistake, and I'm lucky I didn't get injured (went into it on 20MPW, 600 lifetime miles). I just took that year off of marathons and worked on building my easy mileage base, and went into Air Force Marathon with about 45-50MPW and 2500 lifetime miles, zero speedwork. Success was miles on top of miles on top of miles. I'm going into Carmel on April 18th with about 65-70MPW and 4000 lifetime miles with a coach and a lot of structure. I'm looking to shave a very conservative 10 minutes from my PR. I think if you smartly ramp up your volume, you could do a prediction race in the summer, and if you can run a 1:40, it would build your confidence and put BQ into play. I'm choosing not to use Heart Mini as a predictor, as it forecasts a very aggressively-timed marathon.
I did Indy Monumental and it was frigid that day, and the course had this "don't give a sh**" vibe to it. I felt there was more energy on the Columbus course, and I'm weird in that stuff like that matters to me.
*ETA if you ran Dayton Corridor in 1:43 and Heart Mini in 1:45, I'd say they were both equal effort races.0 -
I ran my first full on a 5 days a week McMillan plan and did only about 35-40mpw and only 1 20 miler. I ran just over 3:30
I went back to a McMillan plan after a disheartening DNF and did 55 mpw with a 65 mpw peak and got a 3:12-- 1 year after my first marathon.
I am trying for a sub 3 Boston now 6 months later on 60 mpw with 70+ peak.
I have not changed anything really between the plans besides the mileage. I did a buildup from 30-55 before I started the plans. They are all Mcmillan based, and the "hard work" is the same in them all (1 stride day, 1 tempo day, lots of fast finishes towards the end of the plan). The only differences have been cumulative easy mileage.
Long story short...run more miles
Oh...and I will throw this in there:
I added a 3-4 week hill module in front of the 12 week plan and have seen great results from that. Nothing fancy. One day a week I would do a lot of hill repeats. This time around I did 3 warm up, 4-5xmed hill, 5x sprint hill, 4-5xmed hill, cool down. The last week I got up to 6-6-6. I really feel this has added to my endurance.0 -
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Thanks for the input everyone. I know I definitely need to increase my mileage, just not sure about how fast. I think I will strive for 35mpw in April, 40 mpw in May and then start throwing in some speed work at 40 mpw until I start my training plan. I think I will seek out an intermediate/advanced 18 week plan that maxes out between 55-60 mpw. Does this sound like a good plan?0
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lporter229 wrote: »Thanks for the input everyone. I know I definitely need to increase my mileage, just not sure about how fast. I think I will strive for 35mpw in April, 40 mpw in May and then start throwing in some speed work at 40 mpw until I start my training plan. I think I will seek out an intermediate/advanced 18 week plan that maxes out between 55-60 mpw. Does this sound like a good plan?
Sounds doable for me. Your body will tell you when it's had enough. My first venture into a 50 mile week left me hurting, but I backed off and tried again a couple months later and it was all good. You got this, Lori.0 -
SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »
*ETA if you ran Dayton Corridor in 1:43 and Heart Mini in 1:45, I'd say they were both equal effort races.
That's just it, Doug. They weren't really equal effort races. I put a lot more effort into getting that 1:43 in Dayton than I did into the Heart mini. I was pretty surprised by the result at the mini. I kind of thought my Dayton time was a bit of a lucky strike fluke, but after running the mini, I feel like I actually made some good progress between now and then (which makes sense given that I trained for and ran a marathon in that time). I just need to make that same kind of progress (more actually) between now and the fall. My biggest concern is overtraining/burn out.
And yeah, I remember my first 3 consecutive weeks of 40+ miles during my marathon training. I was wiped out and that cut back week was critical!
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18 weeks is a LONG plan. I would consider that carefully. I much prefer 4 weeks of either base/hills or combo of both and then a 12 week marathon focus. I think that breaks it up a lot better and you are a lot less likely to end up in a place where you feel mentally unfocused or physically worn out.
If you've done 18 before and that's your thing, ignore this post 0 -
Carrieendar wrote: »18 weeks is a LONG plan. I would consider that carefully. I much prefer 4 weeks of either base/hills or combo of both and then a 12 week marathon focus. I think that breaks it up a lot better and you are a lot less likely to end up in a place where you feel mentally unfocused or physically worn out.
If you've done 18 before and that's your thing, ignore this post
That's a good point. My last was 16 weeks, but I think the mental fatigue of following a structured plan is something to be considered, especially if I can get the same benefit by doing my own thing .
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Strength training, hills, stairs, sprints, shorter tempo runs and cross train with spin classes. More miles helps too of course but don't neglect speed work and cross training.0
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Just ran my longest training run preparing for my first half, 10 miles. Gatorade drink and blocks kept me going. Nips a little sore but nothing else hurts. Noe no idea how I'm going to eat all these calories backback today0
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Run more miles. Your marathon performance is mostly a factor of your weekly mileage. The second factor is getting your hip and core strength up to improve running efficiency and prevent injury.
Choose a training plan about 4 months before your marathon. Find a running club or buddy!0
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