Slower marathon runners - what do your training plans look like?
kozinskey
Posts: 176 Member
Hey all. I'm about a month out from starting training for my 3rd marathon (Twin Cities!) and I'm debating how I want to approach my training this time around. I'd be happy with a 4:45 time or better -- my last half time was a 2:15 and my "comfortable" pace is right around 10:30 these days.
For my last two marathon training sessions, my long run mileage tended to be 50% or even more of my weekly mileage. My training plan looked something like this:
Sun: long run
Mon: rest
Tues: easy short run
Weds: speed or hills
Thurs: slightly longer easy run
Fri: off
Sat: 2 miles
I crashed and burned pretty badly in the last 10k last year. Part of that was heat, but I'm also trying to figure out how to get my long run miles to be closer to 30-40% of my weekly mileage. I have some of my Tues/Thurs runs going up to 7-8 miles later on in the training, but I'd still hover around 45% that way if I go up to a 20-mile run.
What do some of you guys recommend? I want to keep a little speed/hill work in for the mental break and because TCM is infamous for the hill at miles 20-22. The obvious answer is to increase the weekly mileage here and there, but I just don't know how many miles I can realistically do during the week and still be a functioning person in the rest of my life. How do I make sure my training plan is manageable at my pace, but still get enough miles in to prevent a last 10k crash?
For my last two marathon training sessions, my long run mileage tended to be 50% or even more of my weekly mileage. My training plan looked something like this:
Sun: long run
Mon: rest
Tues: easy short run
Weds: speed or hills
Thurs: slightly longer easy run
Fri: off
Sat: 2 miles
I crashed and burned pretty badly in the last 10k last year. Part of that was heat, but I'm also trying to figure out how to get my long run miles to be closer to 30-40% of my weekly mileage. I have some of my Tues/Thurs runs going up to 7-8 miles later on in the training, but I'd still hover around 45% that way if I go up to a 20-mile run.
What do some of you guys recommend? I want to keep a little speed/hill work in for the mental break and because TCM is infamous for the hill at miles 20-22. The obvious answer is to increase the weekly mileage here and there, but I just don't know how many miles I can realistically do during the week and still be a functioning person in the rest of my life. How do I make sure my training plan is manageable at my pace, but still get enough miles in to prevent a last 10k crash?
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Add in some speedwork once a week and if you can do a long run with a hill or two in there it will help tons. I wouldn't sacrifice miles for speedwork and hills however. The miles per week is the most important factor. I got a 4:30 on my first marathon back in December with zero speedwork or hills. I just ran a ton of easy miles. I still tanked at the last 10k. I hardly did any long runs a couple months before due to an achilles issue. Obviously I needed MOAR miles!
I'm taking a "break" and I'm going to see if I can hit 40 - 50 mpw in easy miles most of the summer and fall before trying this again in December. These are all easy miles with perhaps the occasional fast finish if I'm feeling extra good. There's no planned fast anything in this.
Mon - 6-8
Tue - 6-8
Wed - 6-8
Thu - 6-8
Fri - 6-8
Sat - 12-16
I put in a nice day of speedwork this last race but my performance was hideous due to stomach issues so that's not really worth mentioning other than to say I was feeling like a 9:45 pace was easy money before that started. I peaked that cycle with 4 weeks at 50 mpw before the taper.
You know what to do. It's miles per week. Get up earlier if you must and make it happen. Oh, I could also stand to lose 15 pounds. :laugh:0 -
I'm not very fast by any means, and I get in a solid 40 mpw during the peak of my training. I just don't have time to spend hours and hours running every week (though I wish I did!). On a peak weak my schedule looks like:
Sun: 18 miles
Mon: 4 miles
Tues: XT
Wed: 5-6 miles
Thurs: 8 miles
Fri: 5-6 miles
Sat: Rest
This is marginally more mileage than my last marathon cycle (I was doing 2-3 miles Mon, 4 miles Wed and Fri, and 7 max on Thurs), and I'm already seeing huge time increases, even though my LSR is still 40-50% of my weekly mileage. I usually use Wednesday as a speed work day and do my run at my HM pace since my goal HM is just around the corner. Right now, I just don't have it in me physically or temporally to do 50-60 mpw right now, but that's my summer goal once the semester ends and I start on my next marathon cycle in June.
But re: the last-10k crash, I'm not sure there's a ton you can do even in training to mitigate that. Most people start to crash around that point. Unless you're me, and you crash from mile 14-19, and then are bouyed by excitement over finishing during the last 10k. In training, I think the most you can do is get quality LSRs in and then dig deep on race day.
Edit, because PS! My spring marathon is Minneapolis which is kind of like a sister race to Twin Cities, which I have heard from many people is an excellent event
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Ha! I ran a really easy 4:50 marathon last year. Here was my plan:
Mon - Off
Tues a.m. - 5 miles easy w/stroller
Tues p.m. - 4 mIles easy w/stroller up hill
Wed a.m. - 5 miles easy w/stroller
Wed p.m. - 4 miles easy w/stroller up hill
Thurs a.m. - 5 miles easy w/stroller
Thurs p.m. - 4 miles easy w/stroller up hill
Fri a.m. - 5 miles easy w/stroller
Fri p.m. - 4 miles easy w/stroller up hill
Sat - Off
Sunday - 12 to 20 miles, 14 most weeks, with one 18 and one 20 and several 16s and I ran hilly routes for my long run every 3 weeks.
So I wasn't at all prepared for running my marathon fast, especially with 45 mph winds after mile 16, but it was easy and fun running at my very familiar training pace. I owe my "success" to breaking my 4 - 9 mile days into an a.m./p.m. split. It really helped with cumulative fatigue overall (I ran 4 or 5 miles every 11 hours for 4 consecutive days a week) but at the same time, it was easier on my body then running 9 miles at once. I loved it.
You just have to get creative and work with your schedule. I did a six month build so I worked on getting the doubles into my life for 2 months from my base of 30 mpw. And if it wasn't for the wind, I'm sure I would have been at 4:45 or better. I finished with lots of gas in the tank, but that was because I decided for my first, with weather the way it was, that I knew I could finish if I kept the effort easy. I didn't want to stop and walk and get cold and possibly not be able to start again.0 -
Up your Saturday run to maybe half the distance of your Saturday long run. Beef up your midweek mileage too. Not sure what speedwork will accomplish for you in training for a marathon (half or below, sure), unless you're talking about a couple intervals of your marathon pace. Keep your Friday off, and run a few super easy recovery miles on Monday to prevent stiffness.0
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SonicDeathMonkey80 wrote: »Up your Saturday run to maybe half the distance of your Saturday long run. Beef up your midweek mileage too. Not sure what speedwork will accomplish for you in training for a marathon (half or below, sure), unless you're talking about a couple intervals of your marathon pace. Keep your Friday off, and run a few super easy recovery miles on Monday to prevent stiffness.
I was thinking of adding in some adding in some days of half marathon pace miles mixed in there and occasionally some easy runs with 4 - 5 strides for 20 seconds at the end. Nothing faster than that.0 -
Will find out on Sunday how successful I've been in my training as have my 1st marathon (aiming for around 4:30). My training has been typically:
Sun 15-20 miles
Mon Rest
Tues 6-8 miles
Wed XT or 30 min speed or hill session
Thurs 5-7 miles
Fri Rest or 4-5 miles
Sat 5 miles
Peaked out averaging around 42 miles a week. I'd have liked slightly more but been nursing a couple of niggles for the last few weeks.0 -
I ran my first marathon in January and finished 4:42 which I was really happy with since it was my first. I had very little cramps, chaffing (haa thank God) and my legs felt great the entire time. I have found this works for me personally.
Sunday- long runs 13-20 miles (increasing a little bit weekly)
Monday- RPM (spin class)
Tuesday- shorter run 4-6 miles or every few weeks yoga
Wed- Body Pump (weight class)
Thursday- training with my personal trainer (TRX, Cross fit style workout, HIIT or focused muscle group weight training)
Friday- med run 7-10 miles
Saturday- training with my personal trainer (TRX, Cross fit style workout, HIIT or focused muscle group weight training)
I would take a rest day as needed. I listened to what my body was telling me.
For me running three days per week worked. I found that if I did much more than that I was having issues. Again, I think that up to the individual person.
Good luck!0 -
Maybe I am just a bit too new in running or so but why would anyone be doing speed work for a marathon distance target race if their weekly base mileage isn't at least 50+ ?0
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Thanks for the input, everyone! It's interesting to me to see what everyone else does. I definitely think I need the Monday/Friday rest days but I might try bumping my Saturday runs up a little bit as the cycle progresses to see how it feels.
Re: speedwork -- I started doing it because that's what my first marathon training plan had. I trained for my first full through a university course (which was the best PE credit ever) and that's how the schedule looked, even for the beginners. It's not super speedy, more like a few repeats of 5-10 minutes at a little faster than HM pace. I know there's a lot of thought that speedwork won't help you physically for marathon training, but I'm hesitant to drop it because it's so good for me mentally to change up the type of work I'm doing and see that I do have the capacity to go a little faster if I choose. And I'm definitely not willing to drop hill workouts given the Twin Cities course (check out the elevation map). I might just make the warmup/cooldown a little longer on those days and add in a mile or two that way.0 -
kristinegift wrote: »Edit, because PS! My spring marathon is Minneapolis which is kind of like a sister race to Twin Cities, which I have heard from many people is an excellent event
Yes! Do you live in the Twin Cities area? The Minneapolis course is great and I've totally had my eye on that race too. I moved away two years ago and I miss the lakes something fierce!0 -
kristinegift wrote: »Edit, because PS! My spring marathon is Minneapolis which is kind of like a sister race to Twin Cities, which I have heard from many people is an excellent event
Yes! Do you live in the Twin Cities area? The Minneapolis course is great and I've totally had my eye on that race too. I moved away two years ago and I miss the lakes something fierce!
I'm from eastern Iowa, but currently I'm in NJ for grad school. I'm coming to Minneapolis for the marathon weekend, and then going home to visit my family for 2 weeks. A wonderful way to kick off my summer break! Plus, I'm homesick for the Midwest so bad.0 -
Maybe I am just a bit too new in running or so but why would anyone be doing speed work for a marathon distance target race if their weekly base mileage isn't at least 50+ ?
In my opinion, there isn't a need to do anything faster that LT pace when marathon training with the exception of strides. Strides don't count as speed work as far as I'm concerned anyway. They have a unique purpose that is beneficial regardless of the race distance which you are training for, but I digress. So, LT pace, which for the slower runner will probably be somewhere around 10K pace, for 20 to 40 minutes, once a week, is more than enough speed work during a marathon training cycle. That, couple with strides once a week and a Fast Finish long run (last 1/4 to 1/3 of the long run) at MP is going to be enough. Running any longer or faster workouts than that can cause a level of fatigue that may prevent you from completing other workouts.
Regarding "hill workouts", there are three different kinds with three different purposes and I think it's important to differentiate when we talk about them.
Hill bounding - Steep hill, you actually hop or bound up the hill then walk back down. Builds muscular strength
Hill repeats - Less steep, run up the hill at 3K to 10K effort, walk or jog back down. Builds some strength but also gives an anaerobic workout (speed work in disguise).
Hill workouts - Any easy run or tempo run that is done on a rolling hill course. This is what I suggest when preparing for a hill marathon. Either of the above workouts is not going to prepare you for sustained hills being run at MP. This one will. As a matter of fact, seeking out hills for pretty much all of your easy runs is a good idea.
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This thread has been very helpful to me. Thanks to all who contribute and to OP for starting topic. :-)0
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Carson, what do you recommend about hill placement in a run. I live near the sea and usu run to and from it, so gradual down hill with a few ups going out and a long slow incline with a few downs coming back, with flat by the sea in the middle. I've considered occasionally reversing it but it'd require me to tram to a starting point, run basically home, turn and return and tram back home afterward :-/ But in actuality, the race I really want to run is Athens which comes from the sea, so is viciously uphill for first half or more and then downhill to finish. Is it better to replicate that, ignore it, or do hills at the end like I'm doing so a hills-first race would seem easier to me?
P.s, I also do other routes that cross ridges, so lots of ups and downs along the way for variety.
Thanks!0 -
I would recommend you stop going into your long runs rested. You are taking nearly two days off prior and a day off after. training is designed to simulate some of the fatigue of a marathon... Running on rested legs isn't the best way to do this.
I would recommend you cut your long run distance back by a mile or two and increase your Saturday run to 6 miles and Monday to 4 to 6 miles...easy0 -
Maybe I am just a bit too new in running or so but why would anyone be doing speed work for a marathon distance target race if their weekly base mileage isn't at least 50+ ?
I do speed work mostly to benefit my half-marathons. I usually have goal 1/2 in the spring and fall, and I run those at a much faster pace than my long runs or a marathon. I don't do anything crazy, just a tempo or progression run, but I reap rewards both in the 13.1 distance and on my LSRs.0 -
CarsonRuns wrote: »Maybe I am just a bit too new in running or so but why would anyone be doing speed work for a marathon distance target race if their weekly base mileage isn't at least 50+ ?
In my opinion, there isn't a need to do anything faster that LT pace when marathon training with the exception of strides. Strides don't count as speed work as far as I'm concerned anyway. They have a unique purpose that is beneficial regardless of the race distance which you are training for, but I digress. So, LT pace, which for the slower runner will probably be somewhere around 10K pace, for 20 to 40 minutes, once a week, is more than enough speed work during a marathon training cycle. That, couple with strides once a week and a Fast Finish long run (last 1/4 to 1/3 of the long run) at MP is going to be enough. Running any longer or faster workouts than that can cause a level of fatigue that may prevent you from completing other workouts.
Regarding "hill workouts", there are three different kinds with three different purposes and I think it's important to differentiate when we talk about them.
Hill bounding - Steep hill, you actually hop or bound up the hill then walk back down. Builds muscular strength
Hill repeats - Less steep, run up the hill at 3K to 10K effort, walk or jog back down. Builds some strength but also gives an anaerobic workout (speed work in disguise).
Hill workouts - Any easy run or tempo run that is done on a rolling hill course. This is what I suggest when preparing for a hill marathon. Either of the above workouts is not going to prepare you for sustained hills being run at MP. This one will. As a matter of fact, seeking out hills for pretty much all of your easy runs is a good idea.
Yep, the "speedwork" I'm doing is all LT work. I admit I've never done strides -- can you tell me more about them? And fast finish is something I'm thinking about this cycle too. Do you do those on step-back weeks or just whatever run works?
The hill work I've done is mostly hill repeats, but I think I'm going to alternate between those and finding hilly courses for easy runs. I have some runs on my schedule marked as "hilly" as well. Probably can't do that for every run because my house & work are in a flat area, but I'm hoping to do as much as I can. Summit Ave is scary!snowflakesav wrote: »I would recommend you stop going into your long runs rested. You are taking nearly two days off prior and a day off after. training is designed to simulate some of the fatigue of a marathon... Running on rested legs isn't the best way to do this.
I would recommend you cut your long run distance back by a mile or two and increase your Saturday run to 6 miles and Monday to 4 to 6 miles...easy
You're probably right about being rested. The 2 mile runs are awfully refreshing but I probably need to drop them. I do have Fridays marked as an optional Crossfit day, which isn't something I want to give up entirely this cyle, but maybe I'll shift the 2-milers to that day if I don't go to Crossfit and just plan to always do something a little longer on Saturday.0 -
FromHereOnOut wrote: »Carson, what do you recommend about hill placement in a run?
It's a matter of preference. I prefer to have them at the end if not throughout the entire run. There's great benefit to running on tired legs and doing hills on tired legs is even better.I admit I've never done strides -- can you tell me more about them? And fast finish is something I'm thinking about this cycle too.
Strides are usually done near the end of an easy run. Something like 8x20 seconds with 1:00 recovery between each one. The pace will vary, depending on how tired your legs are from other workouts. They will vary between 10K and mile race pace (sometimes even faster!) with easy jogging for recovery.
There are many benefits to running strides. They help your legs get used to running fast. They also help to recruits some of those fast twitch muscle fibers so they can help out when the slow twitch fibers start to get fatigued. They help to improve your running form and to boost your overall running economy.Do you do those on step-back weeks or just whatever run works?
Wherever it works in your schedule. I think I failed to put this in my original post. I would do fast finish long run no more frequently than every other week.
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I do hills as where I live is very hilly, even an easy relatively short run will have a few hundred ft of climb (my last longish run on Sunday was abou 10miles and was picked as an easy route and had 800ft of climbs) and I enjoy them. I do the speed work as although training for a marathon (and have recently completed my 1st ultra) I also enjoy racing the odd 5 & 10k race. Plus a 30min speed session now and then breaks things up and lets me fit in a qucik trining session when time is short!0
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Maybe I am just a bit too new in running or so but why would anyone be doing speed work for a marathon distance target race if their weekly base mileage isn't at least 50+ ?
Great question. Speed work in the form of shorter intervals or strides promote a larger stroke volume. Workouts do feel easier if your heart is working more efficiently. Even as little as 1k of strides once a week in the early stages of training. This can benefit runners of all type with low risk of injury. And it is super fun to do a Kenyan finish!
The injury risk for the other benefits of track work is just too high for most running under 40 miles a week.
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Let me add my concurrence with Carson on hills. Unless I run entirely on a track or treadmill, I have no choice but to run hills where I live and they are interspersed throughout both short (5-6 miles) and long runs. Consequently, I don't have the complaints about hills that so many seem to protest. I agree that hills are speedwork in disguise. The hill repeats on moderate hills are/were quite useful in my last training campaign and a couple of training plans that I have looked at have hill work at the beginning of the training cycle and transition to other speed running patterns.
I'll be honest and tell you that I'm relatively late to the concept or the use of strides as a matter of routine training. And when I realized what they could do (maintaining high turnover rate at a high output, particularly in the late stages of a race), it was like a "lightbulb" moment. So, when I was closing out the last three miles, 385 yards of a race where I had been able to sustain a moderately even pace (and certainly even output over the few moderate hills on the course), the ability to not only sustain pace, but to accelerate each of those last miles was key to my finish. The ability to recognize the feelings of muscle discomfort and knowing how my legs could respond was one of the things that I learned. It probably shaved a minute off my final time simply because I was able to sustain a faster pace over the end of the race. It was also a significant PR (4:34:00) in that only a week before, on an even flatter course, I had boinked badly at mile 23. The fact that I was more than 16 minutes faster under worse conditions only seven days later just shows the sort of vagaries associated with training for and running a marathon (as a slower runner).
In the last month before tapering, I was averaging 40-45 miles per week. It wasn't so much the mileage but the time (at various training levels) with the long runs being the only runs that were defined by minimum mileage.
I am currently on a hiatus from running until mid-May to allow a few overused ligaments to heal. When I return to bring myself to a maintenance level, first through 20 miles and then through 30 miles per week running four days per week, it will include a sequence of hill repeats at the beginning and a sequence of strides on non-hill repeat days. The real ramp up will occur in early November for a goal marathon race in early March.0
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