Marathon courses-Hilly vs. Flat

lporter229

We have all heard courses labeled as "flat and fast", which are usually considered ideal for a PR. However, I have noticed that, given an equal average pace, my average heart rate is almost always 4-5 bpm lower on a hilly run than on a flat run. I am not sure if this would in any way translate to a faster race time, but is it possible that a hilly course with zero net elevation change is just as fast as a flat course? I know that most flat courses have lower average times, but is it possible that this is just because people tend to choose these courses as their PR races? Thoughts and experiences on the subject?

lorierin22

I'm not a tenured expert, but I've always had an easier time racing on a hilly course. On a flat course you just have to keep pushing the same pace the entire time and it is difficult. Maybe it's just me, but I try to power up hills (even though I am actually going a little slower pace) and then I recover down hills (going a faster pace than if I was just running on a flat surface.) So I am getting a break for my lungs and legs on the downhills, but I am netting a faster pace overall. My PR for both the half and 5K were on hilly courses.

ETA: my PR half is the Athhalf in Athens, GA. It is noted as a fast course that nets many PRs. It is not the hardest course by any means, but it is certainly NOT flat. If you have ever been to Athens, you know what I mean. **Also sorry, I just saw the "marathon" in the title and I have never ran a marathon

Carrieendar

No because you will always exert more energy to move through the air on an incline than you will conserve running down (in addition to the quad pounding). Locally, we have two marathons : a 1200 or so elevation uphill with a monster hill at 22 that does net zero because of the out n back nature and one that, again, has mostly out n back and 700 uphill. The same folks do about 5-10 minutes better on course B in my experience.

Carrieendar

Some 20 minutes!

Carrieendar

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/hill-running-training/

Sorry for serial posting but this is a great article on this!

litsy3

I believe Carrie's explanation. But even if it were just because people tend to pick the flat courses for their PR attempt, that would still mean there'd be more fast runners at the flat races. And it's much easier to run fast when there are other people around you than it is by yourself. So I'd always pick the race with the better quality field for my PR attempt.

lporter229

Thanks Carrie, that's a great article. I kind of knew the answer to the question before I posted it, but I wanted to generate the discussion. My race PRs are on flat courses as well, but when training, I kind of find it easier to run a hilly course than running on flat. I guess it's because I am not exerting full effort to go up or down the hill.

Carrieendar

My PR before Boston was on the 1200 ft w/monster at 22 course. But here my long runs average 800 ft. Sometimes I think i am the same- I hope though I can PR at Chicago!

cheshirecatastrophe

On training runs, I have found that an early uphill gets me in the pace game sooner than a flat course--the elevated heart rate from the climb pops my brain-body connection out of warmup mode, or something.

I don't have the race experience to say whether that would carry over. Probably not, what with taper and adrenaline and all.

DavidMartinez2

I like rolling hills, staying in the same plane for 26 miles is tough for me. I have faster times on flat/downhill courses but I enjoy hilly courses more.

kristinegift

I don't like super hilly courses because it's hell on my knees, but I enjoy moderate rolling hills. The NJ half that I did a few weeks ago was extremely flat, and I was way more sore than expected the next day. Hills break up the monotony a bit and keep me on track, plus they give me a walk break to look forward to in the 2nd half. I think "flat and fast" is definitely true, but I think in some ways it can be tougher mentally than something with gentle hills.

STrooper

A coworker of mine ran the Downhill at Dawn half marathon this morning. Haven't heard from him yet, but I'll be interested to see if he feels as good after running and dropping more than 2,000 vertical feet was as "fast" and feels as good as he thought it might.

vcphil

People can run PRs on all types of courses. I wouldn't let the elevation be the determining factor for doing a race or not. As others have said, rolling hills make the course more "scenic" help break it up. But I have always ran faster on flat courses.

WhatMeRunning

Depends what you call "hilly", I think.

For me in this part of the country, "hilly" means hills with 150 to 200 ft vertical gain/loss over a half mile to a mile distance or so. A hilly race would have a few of those. There are quite a few rather flat races around here though, those aren't hard to find.

I have not seen a dramatic difference between the hilly ones and flat ones time-wise for me, but again I think that comes down to what is hilly here vs other places.

STrooper

I generally consider a course with more than 1000 vertical climb (even if it is a net zero because you return to where you start) a "hilly course." Most of the courses we have around here that are characterized as hilly have more than 1200 feet of climbing over the marathon distance, 600-800 feet over the half-marathon distance.

Carrieendar

City of Oaks has a little "flat and fast" section, right, STrooper?! Flat and fast flanked by a 11% grade monster >.<

STrooper

Oh, I love that monster at mile 22. I was more afraid of falling (slipping) down it on wet leaves the first time I ran it to get a sense of that portion of the course when I was training.

I was surprised how many people (half-marathoners) complained about the hills on the outbound leg. I run those hills on Clark Ave all the time. No biggie. Those folks missed the real fun that we faced. But, as you know, you best be prepared as you close for home after running 10 or more miles on mostly flat terrain.

legallyblonde916

CIM has a negative elevation gain, considered "downhill," but definitely not all downhill, in fact, it's very hilly. Compare CIM to Chicago (SUPER flat!) and there's a 15 minute difference in my times. CIM was much faster for me, as well as my peers (including the 2012 torrential storm).