Training plans
goalie35
Posts: 181 Member
Never to early to start looking for training plans right? I ran my first M last year and would like try it again in 2016. I would like to keep a strength training regiment in the plan. The first time around I just focused on the running since it was first one. Any suggestions for some plans that you liked that had a good combination of runs/strength/CT.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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I can't recommend and specific plans, but strength training during a marathon training cycle should be designed to keep you healthy so you are able to run all the miles in the plan. Weights won't help you cover 26.2, more running will.
Good luck on #2 (no, not that #2)
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I'm not familiar with plans that call for specific strength exercises, but if you've run a marathon you should have a pretty good idea where the weakest parts of your running chain are. Work on strengthening those.
For example, my feet and ankles tend to be weakest. So I do one leg weighted calf raises on a step. Yes, that's designed to work the gastrocnemius; but it also hits the extrinsic foot muscles and the ankles. I do foot stretches my podiatrist gave me, and I've started doing ankle stretches my running coach gave me. I do hip abduction and adduction with a light resistance band, because my PT found that I had weak hip abductors/adductors and strenghtening those helps me control my foot strike.
On the other hand, I don't do a whole lot of squats or lunges, because my quads don't give me problems even when running a lot of hills. If the weak part of your running chain is quads, you would want to do squats, lunges, or something to hit the quads. If your hamstrings are weak relative to the rest of your running chain, you research strength exercises for the hamstrings. If you get a sore back after long runs, you work on core strength.
Personally, I hate most direct core exercises. But I do pushups and pullups every day. These won't directly help the running chain, but each set of 60 pushups contains a plank of a minute or so, without the boredom of looking at a timer. So I do get some indirect core work.
Anyway, I'm a big fan of identifying your own personal weaknesses and focusing attention on improving them. There are tons of strength exercises out there; but if you spend a lot of time working on stronger quads and hamstrings when your weakest link is core or hip abductors, you've spent most of your strength training time on stuff that won't help you much with the running. One size does not fit all, and the best mix of strength exercises for me is probably not the best mix for you.0 -
I am not a big fan of the marathon plans that are out there on public domain. 18-20 weeks to train for a marathon is like cramming for your finals in the last week of the course.
As far as strength training goes, you will want to focus on your core, glutes, and hips. Calf raises may help too.0 -
I am not a big fan of the marathon plans that are out there on public domain. 18-20 weeks to train for a marathon is like cramming for your finals in the last week of the course.
For me, personally, I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it's good to have some kind of structured plan that combines speed work, tempos, etc. in the 16-20 week period prior to a marathon. Prior to that period, I just like to focus on a combination of base mileage and strength training with weights. Base mileage, for me, consists of running everyday or almost everyday, at an easy pace along with some hilly runs and one longer session per week, for a total of 30-40 mpw. I try to limit my actual speed work during this time. If I do too much "training" type running all year round, I feel like I suffer from burn out and fatigue. Of course, I guess this is a very individual thing and also depends on how much actual racing you do.
To answer your question, OP, I am not sure that I know of any specific training plans that include strength training. Many include cross training, but this is not intended to be strength training. It should be cardio focused. Like I mentioned above, I like to do most of my real strength training in the off periods between actual training sessions. When I am training for a race, I try to incorporate as much yoga, pilates and body weight exercises as I can find the time for. I try to stay away from the type of strength training that results in DOMS. If you do find a plan that includes strength training, please share it. I would be interested in seeing how they incorporate it into the plan because I have still not figured out if there is a best time to do it (i.e. easy days, hard days).0 -
I would suggest finding one of the 16-20 week plans that you like and add in your strength training class in addition to that. If memory serves Hal Higdon's plans have designated cross-training days as well. I agree that picking up heavy things and putting them down won't help with your marathon but having a solid strength training routine (including core) will help keep you from developing muscle imbalances and avoid injury. Before I found a fitness class that works well for me I used to do the P90X Core Synergistics routine a couple of times per week.0
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Never to early to start looking for training plans right? I ran my first M last year and would like try it again in 2016. I would like to keep a strength training regiment in the plan. The first time around I just focused on the running since it was first one. Any suggestions for some plans that you liked that had a good combination of runs/strength/CT.
Thanks!
I like to use PiYo, Yoga and cycling as my go to cross training. The yoga and PiYo concentrate on the core and help make you a better runner.0 -
lporter229 wrote: »I am not a big fan of the marathon plans that are out there on public domain. 18-20 weeks to train for a marathon is like cramming for your finals in the last week of the course.
For me, personally, I'm not sure I agree with this. I think it's good to have some kind of structured plan that combines speed work, tempos, etc. in the 16-20 week period prior to a marathon. Prior to that period, I just like to focus on a combination of base mileage and strength training with weights. Base mileage, for me, consists of running everyday or almost everyday, at an easy pace along with some hilly runs and one longer session per week, for a total of 30-40 mpw. I try to limit my actual speed work during this time. If I do too much "training" type running all year round, I feel like I suffer from burn out and fatigue. Of course, I guess this is a very individual thing and also depends on how much actual racing you do.
To answer your question, OP, I am not sure that I know of any specific training plans that include strength training. Many include cross training, but this is not intended to be strength training. It should be cardio focused. Like I mentioned above, I like to do most of my real strength training in the off periods between actual training sessions. When I am training for a race, I try to incorporate as much yoga, pilates and body weight exercises as I can find the time for. I try to stay away from the type of strength training that results in DOMS. If you do find a plan that includes strength training, please share it. I would be interested in seeing how they incorporate it into the plan because I have still not figured out if there is a best time to do it (i.e. easy days, hard days).
I will respond with the reason why I answered it this way. First, I do agree you need structure and specific workouts.
When I first was thinking about running my first marathon, I just got done with my first HM. I was already averaging over 40 miles a week with a 14 mile long run. Since it was going to be my first marathon I figure the Beginner's plan was the way to go. I found the week 1 was way to easy for me. I even downloaded the Intermediate Plan. That one started with Week 1 16 miles per week with an 8 mile long run. I felt like I would go backwards if i started out with this one. I asked an experienced friend how to tackle this and they suggested I skip a bunch of weeks and just start with where I was currently at and just repeat weeks to drag the plan out. Since then I learned and studied on my own the proper way of adding mileage and how to fit in long run and other workouts.
The week 1 of a begginer's plan looked like someone who just graduated C25K and was now ready to move on to the next level, and in 18 weeks they would be peaking at a 20 mile long run and about 40-45 mile week. This seemed to break every rule on adding mileage and very aggressive. Long runs are supposed to be only 25-35% of your weekly mileage. Otherwise you risk injuring yourself. This means if you want to run a 20 mile long run at your peak training then you should be running 60 miles at the minimum by the time you get there. And you are supposed to be going from 12-15 mpw to 60 mpw in 18 weeks? And the plans don't even have you running that many miles per week like you are supposed to. That is why I say it is like cramming for your finals in the last week of the course.
So I don't follow a "structured plan" that I got from online. I learned the proper techniques from different sources on how to build mileage, the proper ratio of long runs and workouts to miles per week. Use the 80/20 Rule for ratio of hard workouts to easy workouts. I do Lactate Threshold training workouts, I run hills, I have easy and recovery runs. I run strides (or pickups). So I have structure. I just don't like the plans that I saw that were out there online. I didn't see a reason to pay a coach when all the information on how to do this is all online for free. You just have to look it up and be willing to learn.
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I also learned a lot from some very experienced people in this Forum that I give many thanks to.0
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I also learned a lot from some very experienced people in this Forum that I give many thanks to.
I will definitely second that!
And I agree with everything you said above, particularly about the beginner plans starting at too low of a base level. You should have a decent running foundation before attempting a marathon plan (although I know that many people do it, I can't imagine it's enjoyable). The point that I was trying to make is that I like to have a distinction between my "training" periods and my base building periods. I can do this because I don't race a lot of races over the course of the year, so I understand this is not the case for everyone. OP was asking about strength training during marathon training and I was trying to say that my approach is to focus on strength training when I am not in a training cycle, then 16-20 weeks out, switch gears and focus on a solid training plan (I also use the 80/20 approach) and supplement it with light/easy strength training focused on increasing core strength and flexibility.0 -
I am not a big fan of the marathon plans that are out there on public domain. 18-20 weeks to train for a marathon is like cramming for your finals in the last week of the course.
Interesting discussion on training plans. As I run more half marathons and contemplate running my second full marathon, I've come to understand that different plans are designed for different target markets. The core market for the training plan I followed for my first half is upper middle class female social runners who have never run the distance, need to be pushed to run as hard as they should, and don't need to be reminded to back off for a recovery period after the race.
As I contemplated this and considered the implications for my own situation - a middle aged male introvert who needs to be reminded to run as slow as he should and needs to be reminded that he needs recovery - I came to the conclusion that I need a different plan to train for Boston. I have a 16 week training plan, which I will start on December 27. Right now, I'm working on building the base of weekly miles this plan expects me to have before I start. If all goes well, I'll be running a base of 50 miles a week for at least 3 weeks before the formal plan starts. And through good fortune, I have a coach who will answer questions and modify the plan for me specifically if needed.
In context, I don't think that's like cramming for the final exam; but I get your point about plans that start with very short "long" runs and wimpy base miles before building up to a 20 mile long run. I think there is a target market for such plans, but you and I are not that target market.0 -
I don't think anyone should follow a 'beginner' plan who is not a beginner at running. Too many people think 'it's my first marathon, so I'm a beginner at marathons, so I need a beginner plan', but as people have rightly pointed out above, they start very easy because they're for people who want to go from very little running to a marathon. If you've got more time, you should build a decent base, then find a good plan that STARTS from where you are, and follow that.0
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lporter229 wrote: »I also learned a lot from some very experienced people in this Forum that I give many thanks to.
I will definitely second that!
And I agree with everything you said above, particularly about the beginner plans starting at too low of a base level. You should have a decent running foundation before attempting a marathon plan (although I know that many people do it, I can't imagine it's enjoyable). The point that I was trying to make is that I like to have a distinction between my "training" periods and my base building periods. I can do this because I don't race a lot of races over the course of the year, so I understand this is not the case for everyone. OP was asking about strength training during marathon training and I was trying to say that my approach is to focus on strength training when I am not in a training cycle, then 16-20 weeks out, switch gears and focus on a solid training plan (I also use the 80/20 approach) and supplement it with light/easy strength training focused on increasing core strength and flexibility.
Amen! There is a big difference between 18 weeks of specific training cycle AFTER you built up your base, and the Marathon Training Plans that I have seen online.
When I hear "marathon training plan", all I hear is a newbie runner who did maybe at most a few 5Ks, maybe a 10K, who got talked into doing a marathon with their running group and you can do it because there are plans on the Internet that tell you how to do it in 18 weeks. I seen it in my IRL running group, and I seen it all over here in the forums. I also have 3 people in my own IRL running group wearing a boot right now. One of them just did Chicago last weekend, and this week she discovered she has not 1, but 2 stress fractures.
In our strava group I am beating everyone in weekly mileage big time. All I am doing is around 60 miles per week. The next highest is maybe around 45 miles. Yet how many are signed up for Marine Corps, NYC, Chicago? How many got hurt? Quite a few. Trying to do 18-20 mile long runs and only have about 45 weekly miles as a base. And they call me crazy because I do 60 for so many weeks now.0 -
lporter229 wrote: »I also learned a lot from some very experienced people in this Forum that I give many thanks to.
I will definitely second that!
And I agree with everything you said above, particularly about the beginner plans starting at too low of a base level. You should have a decent running foundation before attempting a marathon plan (although I know that many people do it, I can't imagine it's enjoyable). The point that I was trying to make is that I like to have a distinction between my "training" periods and my base building periods. I can do this because I don't race a lot of races over the course of the year, so I understand this is not the case for everyone. OP was asking about strength training during marathon training and I was trying to say that my approach is to focus on strength training when I am not in a training cycle, then 16-20 weeks out, switch gears and focus on a solid training plan (I also use the 80/20 approach) and supplement it with light/easy strength training focused on increasing core strength and flexibility.
Amen! There is a big difference between 18 weeks of specific training cycle AFTER you built up your base, and the Marathon Training Plans that I have seen online.
When I hear "marathon training plan", all I hear is a newbie runner who did maybe at most a few 5Ks, maybe a 10K, who got talked into doing a marathon with their running group and you can do it because there are plans on the Internet that tell you how to do it in 18 weeks. I seen it in my IRL running group, and I seen it all over here in the forums. I also have 3 people in my own IRL running group wearing a boot right now. One of them just did Chicago last weekend, and this week she discovered she has not 1, but 2 stress fractures.
In our strava group I am beating everyone in weekly mileage big time. All I am doing is around 60 miles per week. The next highest is maybe around 45 miles. Yet how many are signed up for Marine Corps, NYC, Chicago? How many got hurt? Quite a few. Trying to do 18-20 mile long runs and only have about 45 weekly miles as a base. And they call me crazy because I do 60 for so many weeks now.
Yes, I've been seeing this in my running group as well! So many people training for marathons, yet they're blown away that I run 50-55 miles per week. And there are injuries coming and going all over the place (but no stress fractures, thankfully!). This is the first time during marathon training that I'm not feeling injuries coming on as the race nears, and I think it's because my long runs are no longer 50-60% of my total mileage of the week.
But to OP: I would recommend finding a running plan (or building one of your own) that works for you, and adding a strength routine on top of that. But keep in mind: nothing too strenuous! You don't want your strength routine to lead to injury that keeps you from training for the marathon, or vice versa. I think @lporter229's strategy of working on strength during non-race training periods is probably the best way to go; while marathon training, strength maintenance is probably best. Are you targeting a spring 2016 or fall 2016 marathon, btw?0 -
I'm planning on a spring 2016 marathon. I did the same event last year. I like to follow a plan just to keep me on track. I have been doing targeted strength training for the last 3 months and have really stepped back my running. I've been doing 3-4 miles 3x a week. I did find a plan that is a 30 week plan. It helps to build that base before the longer distances start to add in. I'm planning on maintaining the strength training that I've been doing. I know not to increase the weights to much. I've had injuries in the past where I didn't do any strength training and just did the running. I'm hoping this will help me be more rounded.0
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Great advice so far, but you already ran a marathon. Even with running only 9-12 miles per week, you didn't stop running. Therefore, you don't need an extended plan. 16-20 weeks should be more than enough. However, you should start building your overall mileage back up a little before you start the plan. In regards to strength, there are 2 roads you can follow here: 1) Figure out what muscles are your problem muscles, and focus on them while still working on your other muscle groups as well. 2) Do a full body routine 1-2 times per week. The full body is the best go-to because you don't just use your legs to run. Most full body routines will at the very least keep your muscles from being eaten away from the distance cardio you will be doing. Most will help you build strength and will end up targeting all of the muscles you need for running. Remember this for strength training: you are an endurance athlete, you need muscle endurance, not muscle strength. Lower weights, higher reps, shorter rest periods. For example, 3 sets of 16-20 reps of body weight squats. If that is too easy, add a little weight. If you are looking for plans with weight lifting, Beginner Triathlete and Training Peaks have good plans you can purchase (TP are not too cheap though...typically around $40 a plan). But both sites have solid plans. Or you can use the free version of Runner's World Smart Coach, put in your numbers, and toss in strength training on 1-2 off days, and make sure to have a full rest day. Good luck!0
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A lot of marathon books also have strength exercises. Pfiztinger's Advanced Marathoning and Fitzgerald's Racing Weight are the two I have. They also talk about how to work them into your training plan.0
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