training (run and lift) advice

ka97

Full disclosure.....I am also posting this question in the eat,train,progress forum as I really would like some advice from both perspectives.

I would consider myself a runner who really enjoys lifting. I typically run 20-30 miles a week, depending on time of year and weather. I had been doing upper/lower body part splits for my lifting, and that seemed to work well in terms of scheduling everything. Recently however I seemed to stop progressing. A trainer at one of my gyms suggested I switch to whole body lifting sessions. It seemed like a good idea to change things up, so I did that around the second half of December. During January and February my weekly running mileage was in the 25-30 miles per week range. I did notice right away that I felt like I was constantly running on tired legs, but I figured I could work through it. I was trying for 3 days per week of lifting, but it was tough and some weeks I could only get in two days. By about mid February, I was having more and more "bad" workouts, I was constantly tired (but not sleeping well), I was increasingly dreading both running and lifting, and just overall felt tired, sore, and sluggish. There were some good days, but they were fewer and farther between. I did an extended taper for my half marathon, which was last weekend, and then took most of this past week completely off.

So here are my questions....
1. Could the change in lifting have been the reason for hitting such a rough patch in February?
2. After coming of a rest/recovery week, what would be the best plan of attack for this coming week? On the one had I'm worried about losing fitness, but on the other hand I don't want to push too much too soon.
3. Should I stick with the full body workouts, or go back to a body part split? If I can only get in two days a week of a full body workout is that enough? I don't have any races in the near future. My next event will most likely be a sprint triathlon in early June, with the possibility of some local 5k or 10k races if they fit my schedule.

Please do not tell me that I can't or shouldn't do both. I fully understand that I can not maximize progress in either by splitting my time between the two, and I am ok with that. I enjoy both for different reasons, and just want to get the most out of it that I can.

TavistockToad

How much of a deficit are you running?

ka97

TavistockToad wrote: »

How much of a deficit are you running?

None. I've been shooting for 300/day, but haven't even been able to do that. Weight has fluctuated up and down a couple of pounds, but I have no actual loss since before Christmas and New Years.

MobyCarp

ka97 wrote: »

Full disclosure.....I am also posting this question in the eat,train,progress forum as I really would like some advice from both perspectives.

I would consider myself a runner who really enjoys lifting. I typically run 20-30 miles a week, depending on time of year and weather. I had been doing upper/lower body part splits for my lifting, and that seemed to work well in terms of scheduling everything. Recently however I seemed to stop progressing. A trainer at one of my gyms suggested I switch to whole body lifting sessions. It seemed like a good idea to change things up, so I did that around the second half of December. During January and February my weekly running mileage was in the 25-30 miles per week range. I did notice right away that I felt like I was constantly running on tired legs, but I figured I could work through it. I was trying for 3 days per week of lifting, but it was tough and some weeks I could only get in two days. By about mid February, I was having more and more "bad" workouts, I was constantly tired (but not sleeping well), I was increasingly dreading both running and lifting, and just overall felt tired, sore, and sluggish. There were some good days, but they were fewer and farther between. I did an extended taper for my half marathon, which was last weekend, and then took most of this past week completely off.

So here are my questions....
1. Could the change in lifting have been the reason for hitting such a rough patch in February?
2. After coming of a rest/recovery week, what would be the best plan of attack for this coming week? On the one had I'm worried about losing fitness, but on the other hand I don't want to push too much too soon.
3. Should I stick with the full body workouts, or go back to a body part split? If I can only get in two days a week of a full body workout is that enough? I don't have any races in the near future. My next event will most likely be a sprint triathlon in early June, with the possibility of some local 5k or 10k races if they fit my schedule.

Please do not tell me that I can't or shouldn't do both. I fully understand that I can not maximize progress in either by splitting my time between the two, and I am ok with that. I enjoy both for different reasons, and just want to get the most out of it that I can.

I've bolded the parts of your description that jump out at me. In response to your questions:

1. Conditionally yes, but probably not just because you went to full body lifting. From your description, you might have been working your legs too hard between lifting and running. The big question is quantifying how much is too much for you.
2. The key will be, as you say, not to push too much too soon. One week of rest isn't going to kill your fitness level.
3. Full body versus body part split is a false choice, though going back to part body might be part of the solution. The real answer is not to try to do too much. It sounds like you got to a point where, when you add something else to your fitness routine you needed to back off of something old from the routine. *What* to back off is a significant question with no definitively right answer.

What you describe sounds like classic over-training, particularly since you say you aren't trying to eat at a deficit. The cure for this is not to work as hard. That might include one or more of the following:

1. Run less.
2. Run *hard* less. Make most of your running miles easy.
3. Lift fewer days.
4. Lift less weight.
5. Strictly enforce rest days, at least one day a week where you don't do anything strenuous.
6. Don't be a slave to a fixed schedule. Take an extra rest day if your body says you need one.
7. Anything else you find helpful to give your body time to recover from your workouts.

It's really hard to tell you something specific to do, because everyone is different. But the basic idea is to back off enough until your body isn't complaining about being worn out all the time. This helps because you don't make gains while doing the hard work; you make gains while recovering from the hard work.

It can be really, really hard to learn to understand when your body is telling you to back off. But it's definitely worth the effort. Ideally, I'd like to do some kettlebell work - Turkish get-ups, windmills, swings, and snatches - every morning. But I'm in an aggressive marathon training program, and I have to pay attention to when my body says that's too much. The result is that I get the kettlebell work in anywhere from 2 to 4 days per week, not 7 days. I rarely get it in the morning after I have speed work with the running club the night before; but I almost always get it in the morning after a rest day. And even this inconsistent kettlebell work is sufficient to support my hamstrings and quads for running. (*No* strength training on the hamstrings and quads wasn't sufficient; I learned that the hard way.)

Disclaimer: I am neither a medical professional nor a coaching professional. I am an amateur runner who has learned/is learning to avoid injury while training for distance events. 30 miles a week was No Big Deal for me, but when I'm doing 60+ miles per week I really have to make sure I get the recovery covered. Long runs of 20 or 22 miles are fun, and speed work is sexy; but it's the recovery through easy running and getting enough sleep that makes the training work and avoids injury.

trswallow

When you lift:
1) Are you doing the same lifts each lifting day, or are you doing an A/B split of lifts?
2) Are you lifting to failure?

When you were doing an upper/lower body split you were on average working your legs once ever fourth day. However with your full body workout you are working your legs every other day. You are likely working your legs too much.

For the next month you could concentrate on lifting and cutback on your running a little. Once you start training for your next major event, just try to maintain your strength as you increase your running.

If you can only lift two days a week then the whole body routine would be better. However if you can manage 3-4 days a week then a split routine would likely be better. Increasing strength is a balancing act between frequency and recovery time.

ka97

Thank you @MobyCarp and @trswallow

trswallow wrote: »

When you lift:
1) Are you doing the same lifts each lifting day, or are you doing an A/B split of lifts?
2) Are you lifting to failure?

When you were doing an upper/lower body split you were on average working your legs once ever fourth day. However with your full body workout you are working your legs every other day. You are likely working your legs too much.

-I attempt to do an A/B split, but I will admit there are days when either that doesn't work because the gym is crowded and I make use of what is available, or the gym is not too crowded and I get overly enthusiastic - e.g. I think I should go ahead and squat/bench/whatever because it might not be available the next time.
-I don't necessarily plan to lift to failure. For the major lifts I do a warm up set or two, and then try for 4 sets of six. I do sometimes hit failure. That was starting to happen with greater frequency prior to my taper.
-Yes, I definitely felt like my legs were always tired.

I can definitely manage 3-4 days a week, if I do a split routine. If I were to stay with whole body, it's tough to manage more than 2.
It sounds like maybe my problem is more with editing what/how much I do rather than in how I schedule. It's still tough to figure out that fine line between - My body is genuinely tired and needs a rest vs. I'm being lazy and don't feel like working out.

I appreciate the feedback! Thank you!