Long Run Advice Needed (Managing hunger and side pains)
VanderTuig1976
Posts: 145 Member
Hi,
I am in need of some advice for upcoming marathon:). During my long runs (18-20 miles), I have been dealing with hunger about 3/4 of the way through. I use GU chomps and regularly take in electrolytes but they really don't help with the hunger. It is a bit demoralizing to deal with hunger knowing that I still have at least an hour left on the run (usually starts in around mile 14). I eat lightly 2-3 hours before my long runs. I haven't yet experimented with eating real food during a run because I'm afraid my body won't digest it well. Any suggestions?
Also, I've had a really sharp side pains during my long runs which are done 30 seconds slower than my race pace. During my last long run (20 miles), the side pains started at mile 2 and lasted until mile 5. During my 18 mile long run, the pains started at mile 17. Weird! Not sure what to make of this - any advice? FWIW, I run my short runs (6-8 miles) at race pace and do not have this issue at all.
Thanks,
Crystal
I am in need of some advice for upcoming marathon:). During my long runs (18-20 miles), I have been dealing with hunger about 3/4 of the way through. I use GU chomps and regularly take in electrolytes but they really don't help with the hunger. It is a bit demoralizing to deal with hunger knowing that I still have at least an hour left on the run (usually starts in around mile 14). I eat lightly 2-3 hours before my long runs. I haven't yet experimented with eating real food during a run because I'm afraid my body won't digest it well. Any suggestions?
Also, I've had a really sharp side pains during my long runs which are done 30 seconds slower than my race pace. During my last long run (20 miles), the side pains started at mile 2 and lasted until mile 5. During my 18 mile long run, the pains started at mile 17. Weird! Not sure what to make of this - any advice? FWIW, I run my short runs (6-8 miles) at race pace and do not have this issue at all.
Thanks,
Crystal
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Replies
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First, your long runs are probably too fast by at least 30 seconds/mile and if all your short runs are done at race pace, then all you've really trained your body to do is burn through your glycogen stores.
My own experience with hunger is similar to yours on the long runs. Most long runs of 17 miles or less, I'll run without any supplement other than water until the last couple of weeks of training. And then it is just to be sure about what my body can still tolerate or to try out so "different" stuff the race is going to provide.
Your body's ability to digest anything complex during running is pretty limited and the hunger feeling may just as well be a slight sense of dehydration. You don't want water sloshing around, either. I can be a delicate balance. Besides, from a practical matter, unless you are dealing with a combination of simple carbohydrates during racing condition,s, food during the relatively short period of a marathon is probably too late.
Everyone is a different, though. What works for me, may not work precisely for you. Carb loading beginning three days in advance has helped me (not the big pasta dinner the night before the meal). During the race (and I'm not fast, but I do usually finish with a smile and feeling human), I alternate between water and Gatorade (if it is offered). Approaching the water stops (about every four miles), I consume a Gu Gel and wash it down with water. At the next aid station (say two miles down the road), it will be a cup of Gatorade.
What I've noticed is the hunger is greatly reduced. But what has also helped is those long runs without supplemental calories to coax my body into fat burn mode. But it also requires slow running to adapt.0 -
I usually eat about 20 minutes before I head out for a long run. Bread and jam, a bowl of oatmeal, or a granola bar. Eating that 2-3 hours prior... yeah I'd be hungry 2 hours into my run too!
How many Gu Chomps are you eating? The reason I stopped using chews and went back to gels is that one package of chews is usually only 1-2 servings, so you have to eat a lot of them to get the nutrients you need. If you want to try eating real foods, try dried fruit. I find that digests as easily as the chews, or even easier.
As for the side stitch: Try slowing down for a few minutes and breathe in when you step with the opposite foot. It'll go away. And check your form when it happens; are you slumping or hunching forward? I usually get side stitches when my form breaks down and my shoulders roll forward.
Also, why are you running all your runs so fast? I run almost my easy runs 45-60 seconds slower than race pace (except my afternoon caffienated runs, those tend to be only 30 seconds slower and I chide myself afterward) and my long runs a solid 60 seconds slower than race pace. Even though it seems like that's too slow, you'll get more out of your training by slowing down your paces. I was skeptical of this advice for a long time, until I actually started doing it about 6-9 months ago. Now I can run much, much faster for long distance races. I dropped my HM time by 10 minutes from 1:53 (8:35 pace) down to 1:43 (7:55) pace last fall by following this advice (which I got from other lovely folks on this group) even though I run my training runs at an 8:50-9:10 pace. Just something to consider!0 -
First, your long runs are probably too fast by at least 30 seconds/mile and if all your short runs are done at race pace, then all you've really trained your body to do is burn through your glycogen stores.
My own experience with hunger is similar to yours on the long runs. Most long runs of 17 miles or less, I'll run without any supplement other than water until the last couple of weeks of training. And then it is just to be sure about what my body can still tolerate or to try out so "different" stuff the race is going to provide.
Your body's ability to digest anything complex during running is pretty limited and the hunger feeling may just as well be a slight sense of dehydration. You don't want water sloshing around, either. I can be a delicate balance. Besides, from a practical matter, unless you are dealing with a combination of simple carbohydrates during racing condition,s, food during the relatively short period of a marathon is probably too late.
Everyone is a different, though. What works for me, may not work precisely for you. Carb loading beginning three days in advance has helped me (not the big pasta dinner the night before the meal). During the race (and I'm not fast, but I do usually finish with a smile and feeling human), I alternate between water and Gatorade (if it is offered). Approaching the water stops (about every four miles), I consume a Gu Gel and wash it down with water. At the next aid station (say two miles down the road), it will be a cup of Gatorade.
What I've noticed is the hunger is greatly reduced. But what has also helped is those long runs without supplemental calories to coax my body into fat burn mode. But it also requires slow running to adapt.
Thanks for the info. I thought the rule of thumb for long runs was to run 30-60 seconds slower than race pace so I have tried to stay at the 30 second threshold. Based on your advice, it appears I may benefit from running my long runs even slower. BTW, not all of my shorter runs are at race pace0 -
kristinegift wrote: »I usually eat about 20 minutes before I head out for a long run. Bread and jam, a bowl of oatmeal, or a granola bar. Eating that 2-3 hours prior... yeah I'd be hungry 2 hours into my run too!
How many Gu Chomps are you eating? The reason I stopped using chews and went back to gels is that one package of chews is usually only 1-2 servings, so you have to eat a lot of them to get the nutrients you need. If you want to try eating real foods, try dried fruit. I find that digests as easily as the chews, or even easier.
As for the side stitch: Try slowing down for a few minutes and breathe in when you step with the opposite foot. It'll go away. And check your form when it happens; are you slumping or hunching forward? I usually get side stitches when my form breaks down and my shoulders roll forward.
Also, why are you running all your runs so fast? I run almost my easy runs 45-60 seconds slower than race pace (except my afternoon caffienated runs, those tend to be only 30 seconds slower and I chide myself afterward) and my long runs a solid 60 seconds slower than race pace. Even though it seems like that's too slow, you'll get more out of your training by slowing down your paces. I was skeptical of this advice for a long time, until I actually started doing it about 6-9 months ago. Now I can run much, much faster for long distance races. I dropped my HM time by 10 minutes from 1:53 (8:35 pace) down to 1:43 (7:55) pace last fall by following this advice (which I got from other lovely folks on this group) even though I run my training runs at an 8:50-9:10 pace. Just something to consider!kristinegift wrote: »I usually eat about 20 minutes before I head out for a long run. Bread and jam, a bowl of oatmeal, or a granola bar. Eating that 2-3 hours prior... yeah I'd be hungry 2 hours into my run too!
How many Gu Chomps are you eating? The reason I stopped using chews and went back to gels is that one package of chews is usually only 1-2 servings, so you have to eat a lot of them to get the nutrients you need. If you want to try eating real foods, try dried fruit. I find that digests as easily as the chews, or even easier.
As for the side stitch: Try slowing down for a few minutes and breathe in when you step with the opposite foot. It'll go away. And check your form when it happens; are you slumping or hunching forward? I usually get side stitches when my form breaks down and my shoulders roll forward.
Also, why are you running all your runs so fast? I run almost my easy runs 45-60 seconds slower than race pace (except my afternoon caffienated runs, those tend to be only 30 seconds slower and I chide myself afterward) and my long runs a solid 60 seconds slower than race pace. Even though it seems like that's too slow, you'll get more out of your training by slowing down your paces. I was skeptical of this advice for a long time, until I actually started doing it about 6-9 months ago. Now I can run much, much faster for long distance races. I dropped my HM time by 10 minutes from 1:53 (8:35 pace) down to 1:43 (7:55) pace last fall by following this advice (which I got from other lovely folks on this group) even though I run my training runs at an 8:50-9:10 pace. Just something to consider!
Thanks! I don't know why I run them quickly - I guess I thought I needed to do that so that my body would adapt to the quicker pace. I will slow down for sure!
I take in 1 package of chomps every 5 miles. Will try a light meal before my long run.0 -
First, your long runs are probably too fast by at least 30 seconds/mile and if all your short runs are done at race pace, then all you've really trained your body to do is burn through your glycogen stores.
My own experience with hunger is similar to yours on the long runs. Most long runs of 17 miles or less, I'll run without any supplement other than water until the last couple of weeks of training. And then it is just to be sure about what my body can still tolerate or to try out so "different" stuff the race is going to provide.
Your body's ability to digest anything complex during running is pretty limited and the hunger feeling may just as well be a slight sense of dehydration. You don't want water sloshing around, either. I can be a delicate balance. Besides, from a practical matter, unless you are dealing with a combination of simple carbohydrates during racing condition,s, food during the relatively short period of a marathon is probably too late.
Everyone is a different, though. What works for me, may not work precisely for you. Carb loading beginning three days in advance has helped me (not the big pasta dinner the night before the meal). During the race (and I'm not fast, but I do usually finish with a smile and feeling human), I alternate between water and Gatorade (if it is offered). Approaching the water stops (about every four miles), I consume a Gu Gel and wash it down with water. At the next aid station (say two miles down the road), it will be a cup of Gatorade.
What I've noticed is the hunger is greatly reduced. But what has also helped is those long runs without supplemental calories to coax my body into fat burn mode. But it also requires slow running to adapt.
Part of my first response disappeared0 -
STrooper sorry... I don't know what's going on with my replies! What I've been trying to ask is for you to please explain how I've trained my body to burn through glycogen quickly. Is it from running at faster pace? How would I know this - are there any physical symptoms?0
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VanderTuig1976 wrote: »Thanks for the info. I thought the rule of thumb for long runs was to run 30-60 seconds slower than race pace so I have tried to stay at the 30 second threshold. Based on your advice, it appears I may benefit from running my long runs even slower. BTW, not all of my shorter runs are at race pace
What I don't see in this thread is, race pace for what distance? Long runs should generally be 1:30 to 2:00 minutes per mile slower than your 5K race pace. Your 5K race pace won't be the same as your 10K race pace, your 15K race pace, your half marathon pace, or your marathon pace.
For the sake of example: I just ran a 5 mile race last Saturday at an average pace of 6:30 per mile. I target long runs to be between 8:00 and 8:30 per mile. I can run a half marathon at a sub-7 average, but have never held all the mile splits in a half below 7. I have no intention of even trying to run a full marathon at a sub-7 pace; if everything goes well, I might average 7:15 for Boston. But I won't be crushed if I'm not able to hold that fast a pace for 26.2 miles.
One pace does not fit all situations.
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I like to do my long runs about 60 seconds per mile slower than marathon pace, and my short runs (apart from sessions) the same pace or slower, as it takes a mile or so to get going. I don't eat at all before or during long runs, but it might be worth eating more the night before rather than relying on just your light pre-run breakfast.0
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VanderTuig1976 wrote: »Thanks for the info. I thought the rule of thumb for long runs was to run 30-60 seconds slower than race pace so I have tried to stay at the 30 second threshold. Based on your advice, it appears I may benefit from running my long runs even slower. BTW, not all of my shorter runs are at race pace
What I don't see in this thread is, race pace for what distance? Long runs should generally be 1:30 to 2:00 minutes per mile slower than your 5K race pace. Your 5K race pace won't be the same as your 10K race pace, your 15K race pace, your half marathon pace, or your marathon pace.
For the sake of example: I just ran a 5 mile race last Saturday at an average pace of 6:30 per mile. I target long runs to be between 8:00 and 8:30 per mile. I can run a half marathon at a sub-7 average, but have never held all the mile splits in a half below 7. I have no intention of even trying to run a full marathon at a sub-7 pace; if everything goes well, I might average 7:15 for Boston. But I won't be crushed if I'm not able to hold that fast a pace for 26.2 miles.
One pace does not fit all situations.
Sorry - I was referring to marathon race pace in my post. Since it will be my first marathon, I'm still trying to figure out what that pace should be.0 -
I like to do my long runs about 60 seconds per mile slower than marathon pace, and my short runs (apart from sessions) the same pace or slower, as it takes a mile or so to get going. I don't eat at all before or during long runs, but it might be worth eating more the night before rather than relying on just your light pre-run breakfast.
Thanks for the info - I will definitely try eating more the day prior, and, as others have suggested, slow my pace down0 -
VanderTuig1976 wrote: »VanderTuig1976 wrote: »Thanks for the info. I thought the rule of thumb for long runs was to run 30-60 seconds slower than race pace so I have tried to stay at the 30 second threshold. Based on your advice, it appears I may benefit from running my long runs even slower. BTW, not all of my shorter runs are at race pace
What I don't see in this thread is, race pace for what distance? Long runs should generally be 1:30 to 2:00 minutes per mile slower than your 5K race pace. Your 5K race pace won't be the same as your 10K race pace, your 15K race pace, your half marathon pace, or your marathon pace.
For the sake of example: I just ran a 5 mile race last Saturday at an average pace of 6:30 per mile. I target long runs to be between 8:00 and 8:30 per mile. I can run a half marathon at a sub-7 average, but have never held all the mile splits in a half below 7. I have no intention of even trying to run a full marathon at a sub-7 pace; if everything goes well, I might average 7:15 for Boston. But I won't be crushed if I'm not able to hold that fast a pace for 26.2 miles.
One pace does not fit all situations.
Sorry - I was referring to marathon race pace in my post. Since it will be my first marathon, I'm still trying to figure out what that pace should be.
There are a number of online calculators available that will translate race results into expected results for other distances, for example the Jack Daniels system run smart calculator. The standard advice is that the estimate is better for closer analogs to the target race, e.g. a half marathon is a better predictor for a marathon than a 10K would be, and a hilly half is a better predictor for a hilly marathon than a flat half would be.
That having been said, one of the assumptions is that the runner is optimally trained for the distance on race day. I would not expect someone to complete their first marathon as fast as the calculator claims, and I know several marathon runners who have yet to achieve a marathon result as fast as the calculator claims from their half marathon times. For comparative purposes, this calculator claimed I could run a marathon in the 3:10 to 3:14 range, depending on which half I believed; then I actually ran my first marathon in 3:21 and all the experienced marathon runners I knew thought that was a phenomenal first time result.
For a first marathon, I would suggest starting with the pace the calculators pop out from your half marathon results, then slow that down by 10 to 20 seconds per mile to allow for the fact that it's your first marathon. If you're really concerned about being able to go the distance, slow it down even more.0 -
I don't know what to do about the stitches but run through them.
For hunger, I use Hammer Perpetuem solids. Each tablet contains about 33 calories and is the size and width of 8 stacked quarters. Beginning in mile 3 I eat one every two miles (think every odd mile.) I find this rate keeps me feeling energized. I used to use Hammer's liquid Perpetuem, but the consistency and weight of a second water bottle were a big negative. Gel products left me feeling sugared out by the end of a marathon. I like the combination of protein and carbohydrate in the Perpetuem product.
Experiment with different products in different forms and find what works for you.0 -
I don't eat before I run but I do eat a kind breakfast bar at mile 15 to carry me to mile 26. It's okay to be hungry but you need to figure out what you can eat
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When I get side stitches, it's usually in the early stages of my run. I think it is from a combination of form and inadequate breathing. When it happens, I try the yoga technique of breathing deeply and focusing my breath to the area of the stitch. This usually helps and they subside after a while. Other than that, I just run through them.0
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VanderTuig1976 wrote: »STrooper sorry... I don't know what's going on with my replies! What I've been trying to ask is for you to please explain how I've trained my body to burn through glycogen quickly. Is it from running at faster pace? How would I know this - are there any physical symptoms?
It's not that you have trained your body to burn through glycogen quickly. It already knows how to do that. By running too fast you are failing to train your body to adapt to using fat instead of glycogen. You should have an 80%/20% mix of easy runs to hard runs(race pace, intervals, hill repeats, etc.). All your long runs should be easy runs. Running hard or fast all the time increases your chance of injury and not making it to the starting line.
Eating three hours before a run that is going to take 4 hours is a recipe for problems. Most people have problems going 6-7 hours without eating when all they are doing is sitting at a desk. I usually eat 15-60 minutes before a long run, about 300-600 calories of easily digestible food. More if it's breakfast and less if I am running later in the day and have already had a meal or two.
If you are going to fuel during a run the important thing to keep in mind is that your body can only process 150 to 200 calories per hr while running. Consume too much and you'll end up with gi problems. Everything with calories count including calories from sports drinks.
I wouldn't consistently carb load before long runs. You are limiting how much your body needs to fat adapt, due to having so much glycogen stored up in your muscles. Carb loading for race is a good idea and maybe once 5-6 weeks before race day so that you can have a practice run at it (http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-for-runners/the-right-way-to-carbo-load-before-a-race). If slow down your body should be able to keep up with converting fat for energy.
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It isnt advisable to eat at all during runs. Eat more beforehand0
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The most foolproof way I've found to get rid of side stitches is to take really big belly breaths and focus on contracting/expanding my abs. When I breath in, I force my stomach way out. When I breath out, I squeeze my stomach in really tight. That usually does the trick fairly quickly.0
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VanderTuig1976 wrote: »STrooper sorry... I don't know what's going on with my replies! What I've been trying to ask is for you to please explain how I've trained my body to burn through glycogen quickly. Is it from running at faster pace? How would I know this - are there any physical symptoms?
It's not that you have trained your body to burn through glycogen quickly. It already knows how to do that. By running too fast you are failing to train your body to adapt to using fat instead of glycogen. You should have an 80%/20% mix of easy runs to hard runs(race pace, intervals, hill repeats, etc.). All your long runs should be easy runs. Running hard or fast all the time increases your chance of injury and not making it to the starting line.
Eating three hours before a run that is going to take 4 hours is a recipe for problems. Most people have problems going 6-7 hours without eating when all they are doing is sitting at a desk. I usually eat 15-60 minutes before a long run, about 300-600 calories of easily digestible food. More if it's breakfast and less if I am running later in the day and have already had a meal or two.
If you are going to fuel during a run the important thing to keep in mind is that your body can only process 150 to 200 calories per hr while running. Consume too much and you'll end up with gi problems. Everything with calories count including calories from sports drinks.
I wouldn't consistently carb load before long runs. You are limiting how much your body needs to fat adapt, due to having so much glycogen stored up in your muscles. Carb loading for race is a good idea and maybe once 5-6 weeks before race day so that you can have a practice run at it (http://www.runnersworld.com/nutrition-for-runners/the-right-way-to-carbo-load-before-a-race). If slow down your body should be able to keep up with converting fat for energy.
Thanks for the explanation and the link to the article - both were very helpful!0 -
The most foolproof way I've found to get rid of side stitches is to take really big belly breaths and focus on contracting/expanding my abs. When I breath in, I force my stomach way out. When I breath out, I squeeze my stomach in really tight. That usually does the trick fairly quickly.
Will try this - thanks!0 -
It isnt advisable to eat at all during runs. Eat more beforehand
I don't know how you can make such a blanket statement. No one is talking about eating a burger or steak and potatoes while running, but it is possible to eat while running. Besides gels and energy chews, I have also used pb&j, just jelly, or nutella sandwiches cut into quarters, sports beans, and stinger waffles. I've also heard of people using pieces of fruit like apples, oranges, bananas. The main limitation to what you can eat is what your body can handle while running. The general rules of thumb is easily digestible foods, low fiber, and don't go over 150 - 200 calories an hour.
Plenty of people consume food during marathons and ultra events. If you are going to refuel during a race then it is a good idea to practice refueling during long runs, so that you know what your body can handle (http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/a-complete-guide-to-proper-marathon-nutrition).
Runner's World has a whole section dedicated to fueling (http://www.runnersworld.com/tag/fuel-school), including an article on how to eat during long runs (http://www.runnersworld.com/fuel-school/how-to-eat-during-long-runs), so it can't be that inadvisable.0 -
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kristinegift wrote: »
I passed by a Dunkin Donuts at mile 18 of my last marathon. I was mighty temped to go in and grab a road doughnut, but I was on track for a PR.0 -
I agree that this is not entirely true. I can think of three or four situations where eating during a run is essential.It isnt advisable to eat at all during runs. Eat more beforehand
1. During a race or run of marathon distance or longer. I fuel every 45 minutes or so during a marathon. Racing a marathon without fueling is likely to result in depleted glycogen stores and a miserable time. Ultra marathoners eat entire meals during their race.
2. Testing your fueling options for a marathon. You definitely need to know how your body will respond to your fuel during a race, so you want to try it out once or twice in advance.
3. Emergency food during a long training run. Weather I intend to eat it or not, I always carry something with me on runs of 14miles or longer, just in case. I can't imagine running out of steam miles away from my destination. Better to be safe than sorry.
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kristinegift wrote: »
I have an ultra-runner friend who used to run 70 miles on a Saturday "just for fun." He'd grab a backpack, fill it with Arby's sandwiches and munch his way around his route.0 -
No, it's not. But on the other hand, the vast majority of runners (and not just the ones on mfp) are not eating actual food during their runs, and there are some good reasons not to, including the training benefit of unfuelled low-intensity running for endurance adaptations, and - more importantly - the fact that the OP is prone to getting stitches. There also seems to be this persistent myth on mfp forums (more than I have noticed elsewhere) that you need fuel if you are running for more than an hour.
Also, re-reading the OP, it sounds like the problem is not fuelling, i.e. running out of energy but rather feeling hungry which is not the same thing (I sometimes feel hungry towards the end of a long run, just because I haven't had my breakfast yet and three hours of running later it's getting on for lunchtime). So the advice to eat more beforehand sounds pretty sensible to me, except that it would need to be practised carefully because of the issue with the stitches. I still think a bigger dinner the night before would help a lot.0
