Marathon base miles

Elise4270

This may be a goofy question. I've run 2 halves. And as I'm finally getting around to planning my April miles, I realize I am not running longer than 7-8 miles. I am working on base building. My last half was enjoyable, not a super hard effort.

So my long distance is only ~54% of my race distance, ~3xweek. (I am considering planning on one longer run every other week, maybe 30% of my weekly miles. Maybe alternating base building/distance every other month. Maybe)

This got me a bit curious. I understand you don't have to have run 26 miles in your traning to be able to run a full. Obviously, being able to consistently run 54% of the distance isn't going to get you ready for a marathon. Right? Hypothetically, If I could run 14 miles 3 days a week (say for a few months, 50-60 mpw) would a full be possible?

I'd always thought training for a distance, would be running close to that distance, ~80%. Can it be done through base building?

I'm not planning on a marathon, but I feel like somewhere in my brain its plotting one.

WhatMeRunning

I'm not a coach, but I can tell you how I trained for my fulls last year. This training enabled me to run a full, and then two others all within a 30 day span. So it worked for me.

First, it is not necessary to run 26 miles, that would be unwise. Save that for the day of the event. You will be pretty beat up at the end of your first 26 miles. You don't want to be THAT beat up while in the middle of training. Most people try 16 to 20 miles. I did 3 or 4 16 milers and two 20 milers. If you do a 20 miler I would limit it to one, the second is not necessary based on my experience. In fact, the 20 miler itself is questionable, but it did introduce me to the level of fatigue I would feel on race day so I was not surprised by that feeling and knew I could keep moving my legs forward despite that feeling. So it helped in that regard. But it also required me to skip some other runs afterward as it really took a lot out of me.

Anyway, the crux of your question really is, can you train for a full with just base building? At least that is how I read it.

Yes, that is exactly what I did. I spent all last summer building up weekly mileage. To get that mileage I had to do more than one long run per week. I worked up to 3 long runs per week. At my peak mileage I was doing a Saturday 16 miler, Sunday 12 miler and Wednesday 12 miler. I had two other 6 mile runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Every single run was at easy pace.

The weeks I did the 20 milers I was too wiped to do the next days long run. It was just too much. In hindsight, I probably would have been fine just staying right there with the 16, 12, 12 long runs.

The real test, as I have always heard from many sources, is your weekly mileage. That is the best indicator of marathon success. I worked up to 52 miles per week at my highest point and was able to do my fulls.

My understanding of the other phases of training AFTER base building are to help you achieve a desired target pace. So if you are trying to challenge yourself to a new PR. If you do base building, you know what pace you can run in and could do the full at that pace. But if you want to go faster, that is when you add in those other phases.

Hope this helps!

Elise4270

@WhatMeRunning yes that helps. Thanks for the info. That sneaky part of my brain that thinks I can get to a full is elated. I guess I'm just realizing that a full isn't impossible.

I'd love for anyone else to share their thoughts on how they trained, intentionally or accidentally.

WhatMeRunning

Honestly, this is a great question for the Long Distance Runners group. There are people there who don't keep up with the monthly challenges who may have some great advice.

Elise4270

WhatMeRunning wrote: »

Honestly, this is a great question for the Long Distance Runners group. There are people there who don't keep up with the monthly challenges who may have some great advice.

I thought about that.... I'll repost it there. Thanks!

Stoshew71

I shared this in my blog about long runs. The reason you don't have to run a single 26 mile run in training for a marathon is because all the training in the week will simulate the stress that you will need on race day. When you do your longer training long runs, you will be doing it on a full week's worth of workouts. When you finally race for the marathon, you will be doing a 2-3 week taper with drastically reduced miles the week going into the race. That is why you don't need to do a full 26 mile training run.

My longest was 22 miles. but that was just me. 20 is sufficient. But then there is the 2-1/2 or 3 hour rule as well. My 22 mile run the first time took me over 3 and a half hours. I was hard headed and lucky I didn't get hurt. I wouldn't suggest anybody do what I did.

I would think that would be extraordinary to be able to run 14 miles 3x a week. However, I am not sure why you would strategically work your training in that direction. I personally like spreading my miles around during the week and then focus on building a single long run at the end of the week. But if you can run consistently 50-60 miles, you would be marathon ready. I personally think there is a mental boost getting at least a single 20 miler in. 18 miles would be OK as well if that ended up being your longest run. But yeah, your consistent weekly miles will be more key than your longest long run in my opinion. That's assuming that you are running at least for 2 hours on a single run each week.

MobyCarp

There are a lot of theories, and a lot of systems. The bottom line is, you have to find something that works for you, whether it's an established, respected system or something you put together yourself after observing how your body reacts to different types of training.

I've enjoyed the perenniel long run distance discussion. I am in the camp that says the Jack Daniels 2.5 hour limit is excessively restrictive; but there are arguments to be made in its favor. This training cycle, I peaked at a 22 mile long run, which was ~32% of my 68 mile peak week. I did not honor Jack's 20 mile limit or his 2.5 hour limit; but I came in under a 3 hour limit, as some other systems advocate. I ran my last 22 mile with a negative split, running the last 8 miles faster than the first 14. At the end, I felt like I could keep going for another 4 miles. This is in contrast to my preparation (such as it was) for my first marathon, where a 22 mile run capped a peak week of 41 miles and I felt like maybe I could keep running another 2 miles at the same pace. (And I didn't bring that one in under 3 hours.)

From other runners, I hear different stories of what works. I know a guy who trains to 26 mile long runs. I asked him about it. He said he trained to 20 miles for his first marathon, and that wasn't enough to prepare him for the marathon distance. So he found a training program online that went up to 26 miles, and had better marathon experiences. And he turned in a double BQ at Rochester 2015 (in the window to qualify for Boston 2016 and 2017), on a new, challenging course. For reference, a very good local runner ran Boston 2015 in 3:00, but took 3:11 to run Rochester 2015 and said the course was challenging.

I've also talked to a marathon runner who told me there's nothing quite like a good 4 hour training run. Not everyone believes even in a 3 hour limit.

On the other end of the spectrum, my coach came back from Achilles tendinitis in 2015, spent a lot of weeks not running a step, and only worked up to a 14 mile long run before turning in a BQ performance at Niagara Mohawk, while weighing 30 pounds more than he wants to for running efficiency. But to be fair, he has over 5 decades of running and coaching experience and knew exactly what he was trying to do. The training plan he wrote for Boston has 20-22 miles for the longest run, three times; I hit 22 on that plan twice this cycle.

I agree that a strong base is the most important thing for completing the marathon in good shape. I suspect that the measurements of long run as X% of weekly mileage aren't really measuring the right thing. If I run 60+ miles in a week, I'm forced to run over 10 miles more than one day. That can be done with easy runs that look long, or with doubles. @Stoshew71 has said he runs doubles because that fits his schedule; I've run 10-12 mile easy runs because it's easier on my schedule to run longer in one chunk than to accept double the time overhead of pre-run and post-run routine. Those longish easy runs are doing something for me that I didn't get when I only did true long runs and had less weekly mileage supporting them.

Having said all that, I also suspect that optimizing training for a marathon is different at different paces. I ran 22 miles in just under 3 hours. At a 9 minute mile, 20 miles would take 3 full hours. At a 12 minute mile, 20 miles would take 4 full hours. Physiological effects aside, there's a big difference in scheduling requirements to get the miles in at different paces.

And a quote to think about from my coach. We were talking about preparing for a 100 mile race. He said, "Obviously you can't get any 80 mile training runs. But you can do two 40 mile runs back to back on Saturday and Sunday."

There are ultra runners who do not limit themselves to 26 mile training runs. But 50K and 50 mile races are not run as fast as marathon pace.

I believe many of the restrictions we hear touted spring from an assumed goal not of being able to run 26.2 miles, but of being able to run 26.2 miles as fast as possible. That's an important distinction. There's a lot more wiggle room when training for completion than when training for an aggressive time goal.

lporter229

MobyCarp wrote: »

I believe many of the restrictions we hear touted spring from an assumed goal not of being able to run 26.2 miles, but of being able to run 26.2 miles as fast as possible. That's an important distinction. There's a lot more wiggle room when training for completion than when training for an aggressive time goal.

This...times 100!!!

Stoshew71

@MobyCarp Jack Daniels doesn't specifically say that you shouldn't do 20 milers. He advocates either 25% of your weekly miles or 2-1/2 hour limit (whichever you hit first). So he has no problems with you running a 20 miler as long as you are running at least 80 miles a week and can run that 20 miler within 150 minutes.

But point taken that it is very restrictive. But he also is very conservative in all his training methodologies.

nicolemarie999

I've only run one full marathon. I never ran more than 20 miles at my longest run, and never paid any attention to pace during my long run. I did 3 runs a week, one hill/ sprint, one pace or easy depending on how I felt, and one long run. I did a lot of cross training on other days. I just joined a running room clinic and followed their schedule, I found it helpful to have a group for the long runs.
I went into the race just wanting to finish and had a BQ time, so that training worked for me but I had been running for many years ' just for fun' leading up to that.
Have you thought of joining a clinic or local group?

kristinegift

I mean, there are training plans that call for a max of 16 miles, which is only ~62% of total race distance. So yes, that's totally possible to get a good base with 14 miles a few times a week. Though that would be a heck of a time commitment!

For a marathon, I think those 18-20 mile runs are key for psychological readiness but not necessarily physical preparedness. A friend of mine just got to the taper period of her first marathon training cycle, and she said that doing 20 miles was a huge confidence boost (and also reality check), but she didn't up her mileage the way I encouraged her to and she was feeling it. When we did 22 last week, her total miles for the week was just 39, so her long run was 55-60% of her weekly miles, and she was saying this morning she's still sore from Saturday. So I think it has less to do with "longest run" miles but cumulative mileage.

TL;DR: So could you run a marathon on base building alone? Sure, if you wanted to run 14-16 miles multiple times a week! I think that the cumulative mileage that way would get you to the finish line, for sure.

Elise4270

nicolemarie999 wrote: »

I've only run one full marathon. I never ran more than 20 miles at my longest run, and never paid any attention to pace during my long run. I did 3 runs a week, one hill/ sprint, one pace or easy depending on how I felt, and one long run. I did a lot of cross training on other days. I just joined a running room clinic and followed their schedule, I found it helpful to have a group for the long runs.
I went into the race just wanting to finish and had a BQ time, so that training worked for me but I had been running for many years ' just for fun' leading up to that.
Have you thought of joining a clinic or local group?

I ran a few times with a group. Only the faster runners consistently show up. So running with them hasn't been as productive as it could be. Id like to pick that back up when I gain a bit of speed. My comfortable pace is close to 10, they run 8:30ish. I'd just hurt myself. And I hate getting dropped in unfamiliar territory.

I'm using my Garmin to structure my runs. I've been running consistently for about 15 months. I think as I near that 2 year mark I can consider marathon training.

Elise4270

Thanks @Stoshew71 @MobyCarp!