HM two weeks before full -- do it? -- how?

runbabarun

Two weekends prior to my full there is a HM one hour away; I was thinking of doing it. 1- Is it a good idea to run it? 2- If I do it, how should I go about it?

My scheduled run for that day is 90 min easy+30 min at MP (around 7:45-8:00/min, yet to be determined). BUT, if I do the HM I doubt I could slow myself to easy for 90 mins (my last HM was 1:41, PR 1:31 from three years ago--I think if i wanted to run this all out, I could get it at 1:35-1:37)

Is it a bad idea to run the whole thing at MP? Or something in-between, like 7 miles easy, 10K at MP or even 10K pace? What would be the best use of this race to contribute to my progress toward my first marathon?

MobyCarp

The sound track from the Fleet Feet program I pace for is, use a half 2 to 4 weeks before the full as a training run, and run it at MP. I'm not sure I know anyone who has actually done that.

Fleet Feet is pumping SummerFest (12K with hills) on 9/3 as a tune up for Rochester (half/full marathon) on 9/18. I'm not running SummerFest this year, I'm running Oak Tree Half on 9/4 instead. My training plan (which I am not rigorously following) calls for 60 minutes easy on 9/3 and has a big blank spot on 9/4. Then 9/5 says 30 minutes easy plus 4 strides. Instead of that, I'm thinking to take a rest day on 9/3 (maybe volunteer for Summerfest), run Oak Tree as a race but not an A race, and if I feel beat up omit the strides on Monday or even take Monday as a rest day. After that, do the taper as per the plan all the way to Rochester.

If Rochester were my *first* marathon, I'd be inclined to be more cautious and try to run Oak Tree at MP. But Rochester is my 3rd marathon, Oak Tree will be my 11th half, and I have multiple goals. In addition to supporting my training for Rochester, Oak Tree is a Rochester Runner of the Year race. I'd like to run it fast enough to win my age group, and I don't know for sure who else will show up.

I'm thinking you might be contemplating the Rochester Half as a tuneup for the Wineglass Marathon? A lot of local runners do that, and I think they mostly run the Rochester Half as a race but not a major target race. Running it as a training run (MP, or down the river trail at MP -10 seconds and up the Thomas Ave hill at MP +10 seconds, or 90 minutes easy and the remainder at MP, whatever) would be a more conservative approach focused on the marathon. Another option would be to hang with one of the pacers at Rochester; if you pick 1:45 (8 minutes per mile), tell Jim that Kevin sent you. Then ask Jim when he thinks you should leave him in the dust and accelerate toward the finish line, given that the full marathon is more important to you than the half. He'll give you an answer that takes into account the terrain of the Rochester Half course.

runbabarun

Moby, yes! Rochester+wineglass is the plan. I saw few posts on running websites that recommend 4-5 weeks min between the tune up and the actual race, but I have a feeling I could swing this. A pacers guidance would also go a long way to hit at/around MP. Super helpful (and a lot more specific than I could have ever wished for) thank you so much!

STrooper

My plan calls for a race both four weeks and two weeks out. At four weeks, the max distance (on a Saturday) is HM distance but at MP. Note that my schedule then calls for a 17 mile run the next day after the race with Monday as the rest day. Then two weeks out it calls for a 10K Saturday race (also at MP), followed by a 16 mile run.

The key is distance races at MP, not what you can do at the race distance. The trick is whether you can pace yourself under race conditions. IMO that is the real training you are doing in those races, not how fast you can run at the shorter distance. Again, this upcoming marathon is my 9th and I've done 9 HM.

Just for reference, in April I ran a 10K race on 4/2, ran a 5K on 4/9, and then ran a marathon on 4/10. Although I didn't run at the max speed in any of those races, I PR'd both the 10K and 5K and then easily cruised through the marathon with a negative split and a marathon where my last 10K was a story of getting faster rather than slower.

pondee629

Does your training plan call for a 13.1 (or thereabouts) mile run about 2 weeks before your Full? If so, do it at the pace set by your plan. Might be a good idea to get your pacing down in a shorter race where most will be "racing" so you don't rabbit start on your Full. If you plan has nothing close to that distance that close to you Full, I'd avoid it.

On a personal note, my hometown is running a 5K a week before my first Half Marathon. Coach says don't "race" it but I could do it as a training run at the pace she'll set. Probably run that 5K at my half pace just to get used to that pace in a crowd.

I'm still new at this. Take what say lightly.

runbabarun

Thank you both! Really helpful.

MobyCarp

I talked some with Jim on the first 13 of my 22 mile run today. He says Wineglass is mostly flat with a gentle downward trend. In contrast, the Rochester half has some noticeable elevation changes. Roughly speaking, it's 5 miles net downhill from the top of the Niagara escarpment almost down to lake level, 5 miles net uphill gaining that elevation back, and a 5K with some down and up but ending kind of flat for the last 2 miles. Once you get past Brewer Street, there's no more hills. Jim thinks running the Rochester Half at MP before Wineglass as a first marathon is a reasonable plan.

FWIW, Jim has worked with a lot more first time marathon runners than I have. He'll be pacing the Rochester Half for a 1:45 finish.

runbabarun

Hey @MobyCarp, thanks! 2 week-gap got me a bit worried actually. And several friends were interested to do the Oak Tree because it is cheaper and slightly shorter drive than Rochester. It is still open so I registered for it! I just noticed I have a really hard interval work on the day prior so I plan to (and will be forced to) take this one super easy.

MobyCarp

@runbabrun - See you in Geneseo, probably. I hear there is a significant hill at mile 11, but I haven't actually been on the Oak Tree course yet myself. Probably won't have time to go do any sort of preview before next Sunday, anyway.

Edit to add: If we get a chance to talk after the race, I'll let you know whether I think the Oak Tree or Rochester Half course is harder.

runbabarun

@MobyCarp I look forward to it!

katharmonic

Good luck to both of you in Geneseo! Should be a beautiful course I would think!

runbabarun

http://geneseevalleyconservancy.org/images/uploads/OakTree_CourseMaps.pdf?lbisphpreq=1
looks like a nice course but there are two 200 feet climbs, one at mile 10-11. Makes things interesting

MobyCarp

Oak Tree gives out Once Again organic nut butter to age group winners. When I looked at the packet pick up info, it appears that they also give out a jar to the first 200 to pick up the packet today and the first 300 tomorrow. Or maybe it's the first 200 or 300 registered, it wasn't clear. In any event, I got a pint glass and a jar of nut butter when I picked up the packet today. Hope to get a 2nd jar of nut butter on Sunday.

I have some time left today, so I think I might see if I can do an out and back preview of the last 200 foot climb this afternoon.