Nutrition and weight loss
mountainrun73
Posts: 155 Member
I am planning to start training for my first marathon in late January. Between now and then I'm focusing on rebuilding my endurance (lost some fitness due to repeated illness over the past two months). I need to lose about 10-15lbs of fat (although I'm not very overweight, my body fat percentage is close to 30%, and that is way too high). I would like to get my nutrition and start the process of fat loss prior to starting the training plan. I have lost weight in the past when I train for half marathons, but don't want that to be the focus of training this spring.
There is a lot of conflicting nutrition advice for how to eat for weight loss and also support our running goals. I am curious about what has worked for people in this group when looking to lean out.
There is a lot of conflicting nutrition advice for how to eat for weight loss and also support our running goals. I am curious about what has worked for people in this group when looking to lean out.
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I have a similar plan. I gained about 10 pounds since my marathon in November. Some was intentional (lifting heavy, creatine, etc) while some was not (too many holiday cookies
).
I almost always lose weight when I start ramping up my running and I plan to do the same in January. I normally try to lose about .5 pounds per week. I focus on keeping my protein between 80-110 grams (I weigh 165 pounds) and that's about it. Everything else just falls into place. The only food I limit during this time is sugary drinks (I have nothing against sugar, I just drink too much to maintain my calorie deficit).
I do this for the weeks leading up to my training plan start and the first couple weeks of the plan. Then when my runs get longer I switch to maintenance.1 -
Everyone is a little different but for me setting MFP for .5 loss keeps me at maintenance. I'd suggest going with a 1lb per week loss. Try and take in the majority of your calories before dinner so you don't end up trying to make up shortages before bedtime.1
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I lost over 40 lbs and I did so by staying within my calorie goals set by MFP (for me it was 1200 to 1300 per day). I also didn't eat back calories burned. I think you naturally start eating healthier because you can eat more healthy food than junk food. Fruit and vegetables are very low in calories. Nutrition is key in losing weight. You can lose weight by dieting alone but if you're eating more than you burn off in exercise, you'll gain weight.3
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I've not done a marathon yet, but eating low carb has done wonders for me with weight loss. In addition, I've noticed I can go further and longer... though that might be due to weight loss or just becoming more fit.
There was a study that showed fat-adapted endurance athletes can oxidize fat at a much greater rate than endurance athletes that were not fat adapted. The results showed improvement in rate of fat oxidation, but the energy factors related to that are things I've noticed, on a subjective basis, personally.1 -
There are a few things to keep in mind when doing endurance training AND weight loss at the same time. First, you need to make sure you are getting enough carbs to replenish your glycogen. However, you will want to lower your carbs overall, as excess carbs get turned into fat. Unless you currently have a diet that is really high in fats, I wouldn't change fat intake. Replace the carbs with protein. Despite this, you MUST still do strength training. Otherwise at a caloric deficit you will be losing muscle, which will make you more injury prone.
Typically, in an ideal situation, you want to lose the weight or whatever goal you have, and THEN do your endurance training.1 -
Excess carbs get turned into fat???? How? Please point me to the literature on this. Thanks.1
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Excess carbs get turned into fat???? How? Please point me to the literature on this. Thanks.
I thought everyone here understood how net carbs work, but I guess not. You can do your own research to find scientific journal articles about the topic. But here is a summary, in chronological order, of how your body handles net carbs:
-Consume net carbs.
-Some net carbs enter blood stream as glucose through your mouth before swallowing, the rest gets absorbed through your stomach walls and goes into blood as glucose.
-Glucose is used by organs and muscles. It is also converted to glycogen and/or converted to body fat.*
*In a healthy individual, blood glucose (BG) will not remain high for very long. If that glucose is not used quickly after introduction into blood, it will be removed from blood to become glycogen and/or fat. This process begins within minutes after consumption and completes in 1.5-2 hours in a healthy individual. If you don't believe me, try getting a glucometer (Wal-Mart has them relatively cheap) and test your fasting BG while at rest. Then eat carbs and continue to test every 15 min. It will rise and then fall as that glucose is removed and converted to glycogen and/or fat.
I believe net carbs beyond what you are using immediately is intended by the "excess carbs" mentioned.2 -
So you are saying that even if I eat at maintenance, carbs turn into fat if I eat too many? And what is too many?0
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So you are saying that even if I eat at maintenance, carbs turn into fat if I eat too many? And what is too many?
Yes, they do. If you are eating at maintenance, then probably more so to glycogen than fat. But yes, it will turn to fat. Then later, when you are not eating, that fat turns back to glucose. Do you ever sleep for several hours without waking to eat every hour? Guess where energy comes from so you can keep breathing...
Too many is beyond what you are using during the time window before it is converted. How much glucose can you use in 30 min. - 1 hr.? Any more than that goes to glycogen and fat storage.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »So you are saying that even if I eat at maintenance, carbs turn into fat if I eat too many? And what is too many?
Yes, they do. If you are eating at maintenance, then probably more so to glycogen than fat. But yes, it will turn to fat. Then later, when you are not eating, that fat turns back to glucose. Do you ever sleep for several hours without waking to eat every hour? Guess where energy comes from so you can keep breathing...
Too many is beyond what you are using during the time window before it is converted. How much glucose can you use in 30 min. - 1 hr.? Any more than that goes to glycogen and fat storage.
Thanks. Something for me to think about.0 -
So you are saying that even if I eat at maintenance, carbs turn into fat if I eat too many? And what is too many?
The observation I'd make here is that while chemical energy consumed will go through a number of transitions during the process of fueling the body, the net effect when smoothed over a meaningful period isn't particularly important compared to energy balance. Being aware of glucose spikes and the like are relevant if one has a health condition, but for the majority it's just not that important.
Switching between glucose and fat as fuel happens all the time in the body, the principles of a ketogenic/ HFLC diet essentially assume that by starving the body of glycogen fat consumption is encouraged.
Most of what I've read on this relates more to the road cycling world, and there doesn't appear to be anything compelling related to the pro-peleton around efficacy. Some anecdote, but that's about it. Essentially there is some merit in the idea that for long duration efforts training to process fat as fuel can change the type of fuel that one needs to consume in an event, so reducing reliance on gels etc and veering towards real food.4 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »So you are saying that even if I eat at maintenance, carbs turn into fat if I eat too many? And what is too many?
The observation I'd make here is that while chemical energy consumed will go through a number of transitions during the process of fueling the body, the net effect when smoothed over a meaningful period isn't particularly important compared to energy balance. Being aware of glucose spikes and the like are relevant if one has a health condition, but for the majority it's just not that important.
Switching between glucose and fat as fuel happens all the time in the body, the principles of a ketogenic/ HFLC diet essentially assume that by starving the body of glycogen fat consumption is encouraged.
Most of what I've read on this relates more to the road cycling world, and there doesn't appear to be anything compelling related to the pro-peleton around efficacy. Some anecdote, but that's about it. Essentially there is some merit in the idea that for long duration efforts training to process fat as fuel can change the type of fuel that one needs to consume in an event, so reducing reliance on gels etc and veering towards real food.
Thanks for the voice of sanity. I would add, for the sake of completeness, that much of the attention to glucose, glycogen, and the fine points of macronutrient balance becomes important in the fringe cases. For most of us on this board, "fringe cases" means trying to run races at a personal best and/or very long races (marathons, ultras). For simply being able to complete a half marathon or shorter, without being concerned about optimal finish time, the fine points aren't all that significant.
FWIW, I have striven to run half marathons and marathons as fast as I can. That's where the attention to hydration, electrolytes, and in-race fueling becomes important to me. As far as maintaining a stable weight, it's more about achieving a caloric balance and choosing foods that produce satiety when I'm not burning crazy amounts of calories in marathon training. In my case, that means I watch to make sure I get enough protein, watch to make sure I get enough fat, watch to make sure I get neither too many nor too few calories, and let the carbs take care of themselves.
In terms of weight loss, I went from a peak of 221 lbs. to my current maintenance target of 162 lbs. without ever limiting carbs. I've made my weight trend sideways for almost 5 years now without limiting carbs. I don't dispute that low carb diets work well for some people; but I don't think I could have made it to Boston on a low carb diet.
I can't speak to the fine points of body composition, as I don't measure my body fat %. I watch my weight and my running performance, and listen to what my doctor has to say about routine blood work.
Best advice I can give for losing weight while training for running performance: Lose weight slowly. Don't target pounds a week. Keep the calorie deficit modest, and be happy with losing a half pound a week, or even a pound a month, while maintaining or improving running performance. I suspect that a successful focus on improving running performance will naturally shift the body to more lean muscle mass and less fat, with the magnitude of the shift depending primarily on how well or poorly conditioned the individual is when training starts.5 -
Very well said @MobyCarp . I completely agree with everything you said.0
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I was hoping for actual scientific literature when I asked the question. I'm not surprised I did not get it but I am also not looking to prove (or disprove) someone else's post. So I politely bowed out. I will research this more when I have time but I am 99% sure I already know the answer (from previous research and books on the subject). @MeanderingMammal, @MobyCarp, @lporter229 - I tend to agree with you on this one.0
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@dewd2 Like I said, you can do your own research. However, here is a meta with an explanation of how body energy works to get you started: http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/5/27/11190
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There are a few things to keep in mind when doing endurance training AND weight loss at the same time. First, you need to make sure you are getting enough carbs to replenish your glycogen. However, you will want to lower your carbs overall, as excess carbs get turned into fat. Unless you currently have a diet that is really high in fats, I wouldn't change fat intake. Replace the carbs with protein. Despite this, you MUST still do strength training. Otherwise at a caloric deficit you will be losing muscle, which will make you more injury prone.
Typically, in an ideal situation, you want to lose the weight or whatever goal you have, and THEN do your endurance training.
I do strength training twice/week, and am considering adding another day. For the next month or two I will be in pre-training plan mode, so I feel like this is a window to jumpstart some weight loss. I actually lost several pounds last year while training for a half marathon without actually trying. How much protein should I aim for? I've seen recommendations for between .8-1g/pound of bodyweight?
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Oh man, the loaded macro amounts question. As my disclaimer, it really ends up being different based on body type, metabolism, how your body processes specific nutrients, etc. So, the supposed standard is .8 to 1g/kg of body weight, or just under .4g / pound. The typical for someone trying to reduce carbs and focus on high quality fats and protein is usually around 1-1.3g / pound. Basically it doubles to triples the standard amount.
Some people don't handle this well though. And you need to make sure you are getting plenty of fiber, because high protein diets can do some work on your GI system. I would say to gradually increase your protein intake while slowly decreasing carb intake so your body can adjust properly.
It is also important to make sure you are focusing on maximizing your fats to be as much mono and polyunsaturated as possible. This will help your body with processing everything as well. I guess at some point I need to make a blog post with some article references for @dewd2 that are legit studies and research.
I usually recommend a minimum 3 strength sessions per week that are targeting your weak areas until race season, then at least 2 full body sessions during. However, your training program should always focus on your goals and maintaining any weak areas. Your off-season should focus on your weaknesses. I know, TLDR, but it's important to know that the diet aspect of this may or may not work for you, so be aware you may need to adjust. It actually pays to see a sports dietitian for a couple sessions to get a plan that is based on YOU. Believe it or not, many insurance plans cover stuff like that. Good luck!1 -
Oh man, the loaded macro amounts question. As my disclaimer, it really ends up being different based on body type, metabolism, how your body processes specific nutrients, etc. So, the supposed standard is .8 to 1g/kg of body weight, or just under .4g / pound. The typical for someone trying to reduce carbs and focus on high quality fats and protein is usually around 1-1.3g / pound. Basically it doubles to triples the standard amount.
Some people don't handle this well though. And you need to make sure you are getting plenty of fiber, because high protein diets can do some work on your GI system. I would say to gradually increase your protein intake while slowly decreasing carb intake so your body can adjust properly.
It is also important to make sure you are focusing on maximizing your fats to be as much mono and polyunsaturated as possible. This will help your body with processing everything as well. I guess at some point I need to make a blog post with some article references for @dewd2 that are legit studies and research.
I usually recommend a minimum 3 strength sessions per week that are targeting your weak areas until race season, then at least 2 full body sessions during. However, your training program should always focus on your goals and maintaining any weak areas. Your off-season should focus on your weaknesses. I know, TLDR, but it's important to know that the diet aspect of this may or may not work for you, so be aware you may need to adjust. It actually pays to see a sports dietitian for a couple sessions to get a plan that is based on YOU. Believe it or not, many insurance plans cover stuff like that. Good luck!
This was a super-helpful post. Thank you!0 -
I gained weight on both previous marathons. When my mileage gets high, I am constantly hungry and I started indulging too much on MLR and LR days. I also had issues during taper and post-race when I was still eating like a marathoner, but only running half as much.
This time I decided to lose weight first, as you have, and then monitor my intake during training so I can know if I am eating more calories than I'm burning. I have energy issues on long runs, so I eat a relatively high carb diet and am looking for ways to improve my energy when I am running more than two hours.
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@spiriteagle99 Not sure if you have dietary restrictions or there are certain things you can't stomach on long runs, but it's good to mix fast and slow acting fueling during your session or race. For example, if you have an energy gel or something like Nuun, then your body can process that quickly for use. However, this provides immediate benefits and can wear off quickly depending on level of effort (usually gauged by heart rate) and metabolism. For slower stuff, you could pack yourself a peanut butter sandwich in small pieces, for example. You would eat this about 1/4 to 1/3 of the way into your run so that your body can process and have it ready when you need it later. Avoid fiber though, as it can bloat you up like crazy and I personally have had almost debilitating cramps when I had tried it.
However, as I have gotten into more and more endurance races, I consume only gels and Nuun (you can use anything, Gatorade has similar product, and there are many others). It was not easy transitioning to this, but I can carry more without adding a lot of weight. For example, my last half Ironman I had all gels and Nuun, aside from a wafer bar that I didn't realize I had in my cycling gear bag, HAH! I recommend doing a search for endurance, marathon, or long run fueling. There are TONS of blogs, articles, and sites that have examples of foods, gels, etc.1 -
Fueling is about making sure you have what you need to get get going and keep going in order to finish. Fueling isn't just about calories, but about getting the nutrients your body needs. If I will be burning 1000 calories in a race, I don't need that many calories of fuel to finish. I may not even need a fraction of that. There are standards out there saying you burn X calories in a given endurance activity, and you should replenish Y amount of that. However, that is too generic and not very accurate for most people. You can condition your body to many things, negating that easily.
Electrolytes are vital, as you sweat when you race. Therefore, part of my fueling strategy is to make sure I don't get too low. This could also mean I take a salt tab or have a salty snack. So, a cooler race I might not sweat as much, and I therefore would need less electrolytes than a really hot race.1 -
@daj150, got it. I had just never heard of electrolytes being lumped in with "fuel" before. I always see these discussed as three separate categories...fuel, hydration, and electrolytes, which can all certainly be from the same product (sports drinks) but each category needs to be looked at separately to make sure you get what you need. I guess I'll always think of electrolytes as separate from fuel, since there are no calories in electrolytes and don't provide any energy.0
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When I first got into distance running, and then triathlon, there was just one category; fuel. Nowadays it's broken out because there is a different science to each one. Due to the ability to condition your body, some may not be as necessary as others. Therefore you will usually see them broken out now. I guess I need to adjust my advice to keep with the trends. Lol.1
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