SLDL Question

claston77

Hey guys, I'm going into Week 5 of Cycle 1 and I *think* I might be doing my Deadlift wrong :sad: What I do is close to the on in this vid...on the step with a fully rounded back and straight legs:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBStiffLegDeadlift.html

But the ones posted in the All Pro thread on BB.com show something different. What "version" of the SLDL are you guys doing and any thoughts on mine? Should I change it? TIA!

cmeiron

Yeah, so the DLs have caused some confusion around here (not sure we ever resolved it, actually). My reading/googling suggests that what most people call a "SLDL" is actually what's known as a Romanian DL, which has bent knees and an arched (up) back, which I believe is the form called for by the AP routine.

SLDL:



RDL:



I do the RDL. For almost every other lift, including DLs, I hear people squawking about back injury when the back is rounded. I can't fathom doing it with a rounded back without hurting myself!!!

christianteach

Yeah, so the DLs have caused some confusion around here (not sure we ever resolved it, actually). My reading/googling suggests that what most people call a "SLDL" is actually what's known as a Romanian DL, which has bent knees and an arched (up) back, which I believe is the form called for by the AP routine.

SLDL:



RDL:



I do the RDL. For almost every other lift, including DLs, I hear people squawking about back injury when the back is rounded. I can't fathom doing it with a rounded back without hurting myself!!!

Good question!! So, you are saying the 2nd picture is easier on the back? That's why I bought a belt today, it was a little uncomfortable on my lower back and I don't want to injure it...I have a history of back problems but haven't had any issues for quite a while.

cmeiron

From the article where I took the two images:

"Overall, there's less stress on the low back and greater weight can be used with the RDL since the load is closer to the axis of rotation and over the base of support. For this reason, you can go pretty heavy with RDL's as long as you maintain strict form. [...]

Once the back starts to round, the forces on the lumbar spine are at least tripled and it's the ligaments (not the muscles) that support most of the load".

As for the belts, my understanding is that they're actually meant to give you something to "push" your abs/core against to aid with core stabilization - it's an indirect way of supporting the back. (Here's a quick article: http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/benefits-and-proper-use-of-weightlifting-belts/). If the lift is actually hurting your back, I would probably reduce the load a bit until your core strength has developed more and can help support your back more effectively.

christianteach

From the article where I took the two images:

"Overall, there's less stress on the low back and greater weight can be used with the RDL since the load is closer to the axis of rotation and over the base of support. For this reason, you can go pretty heavy with RDL's as long as you maintain strict form. [...]

Once the back starts to round, the forces on the lumbar spine are at least tripled and it's the ligaments (not the muscles) that support most of the load".

As for the belts, my understanding is that they're actually meant to give you something to "push" your abs/core against to aid with core stabilization - it's an indirect way of supporting the back. (Here's a quick article: http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/benefits-and-proper-use-of-weightlifting-belts/). If the lift is actually hurting your back, I would probably reduce the load a bit until your core strength has developed more and can help support your back more effectively.

Thanks for the info! I think I should change form on these. The lifting doesn't hurt my back, it's initially picking it up off the floor. It's not a sharp pain, just a tad uncomfortable for a second. That won't be an issue once I get bigger weights on there because it will be a bit higher off the ground...so I just need to progress quickly.

pandorakick

For what it's worth: I also do the "Romanian" version.

claston77

Thanks for the info, I don't know what to do. I actually have lower back problems and the SLDL doesn't bother it at all but last night while I was trying to figure out the form for the RDL, with no weight, my back was screaming for mercy :laugh: I guess I'll try Monday with weight and see what happens.

sun_fish

Just watching videos on a true SLDL made my back hurt, so I went with RDL. Maybe at some point when I feel more comfortable with weights and form I might try it, but for now the RDL is working great.

jasonheyd

Here's a good resource on deadlift forms, including the RDL and SLDL variants:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112127931

Unless you're well-practiced, I really think the form differences between the RDL and SLDL can be difficult to execute... After taking some videos of myself doing these, I find that it's pretty easy to end up doing something that resembles some of each in a given set, and some that are sort of "in-between" the two. In other words, my form still needs work. =/

The differences noted in the page linked to above are key, and All Pro definitely meant the SLDL, not the RDL.

Those pictures look like a professional weightlifter who's rounding his upper back, probably adjusting to his own body-mechanics, but not so much his lower back, which should be inversely arched in both exercises.

pandorakick

I'll take a look at it, thank you.

Before starting All Pro's I did a few sessions with a PT to get my form down on the various exercises. As it was explained to me then, with both DL and SLDL you would stick your butt out. The main difference being that with DL you bent your knees and with the SLDL you keep them straight (not locked though) making you hinge more from the hips and activiting the glutes and hamstrings. It was just later that I came across some video's describing SLDL with rounded back and RDL with straight back. Hence me changing my reference to what I do to RDL

Must admit that I'm now getting confused again to what exercise I'm exactly performing!

nmtGurl

Interesting! So from what I've been reading, SLDL go all the way to the floor and RDL go to below the knee/ mid-shin with an arched back and head up. Since I have zero flexibility and I can't even touch my toes, I have to put my bar on a milk crate (:embarassed:), looks like I've been doing RDL all along! :laugh: Guess I'll be doing them till my flexibility increases.

I found this article too from Lyle McDonald:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/rdl-vs-sldl.html

claston77

That article from Lyle with the picture of the girl rounding her back is exactly what I do! So we're saying that is bad form? I'm so confused :sad: :laugh:

jasonheyd

That article from Lyle with the picture of the girl rounding her back is exactly what I do! So we're saying that is bad form? I'm so confused :sad: :laugh:

My understanding is that you generally don't want to round your lower back at all, period, regardless of the variation you're using.

Unfortunately, that's not easy to do with just a bar, regardless of your height & skeletal build. I'd imagine that the shorter you are, the easier it'll be with smaller plates but (as you can see in the SLDL video from that 101 link) larger plates make it easier.

I can manage it with 10 lb. or 25 lb. iron plates on the bar, but the 10 lb. plates are about my limit & it's much easier w/ the 25 lb. plates.

If you've got really good muscle control, you can probably keep the lower back arched and round the upper back... I've seen some pros manage it, but it sure doesn't look easy / comfortable and I've no idea whether that'd be a good idea or a bad idea for "normal" people.

I've read that the RDL is fair substitute for the SLDL, and that it can help with the flexibility that'll let you do the SLDL since you basically lower the bar until you feel the pull in the hamstrings (in theory, going lower over time & as you improve your strength and flexibility), but it's definitely not the same exercise.

paprad

On the original AllPro thread, he answered some questions about the SLDL. I don't have the post-numbers but I had jotted down notes when I was reading it - here they are:

The reason SLDLs are there is to work the posterior chain, hamstring complex and low back. If you add dead lifts your lower back and CNS are going to have problems.
The SLDL is to be done like you do a toe-touch. Bend the back like a hinge, keep the legs straight and the back straight/arched. Don't try to go all the way down, just enough to feel the stretch in the hamstring. If you can’t touch your toes without bending your knees, then it is okay to keep a slight bend in your knees. In the mean time work on your flexibility. If you don't you'll end up having the same problem with squats at some point. There was a video given :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtevN0SWp-o&feature=player_embedded

pandorakick

On the original AllPro thread, he answered some questions about the SLDL. I don't have the post-numbers but I had jotted down notes when I was reading it - here they are:

The reason SLDLs are there is to work the posterior chain, hamstring complex and low back. If you add dead lifts your lower back and CNS are going to have problems.
The SLDL is to be done like you do a toe-touch. Bend the back like a hinge, keep the legs straight and the back straight/arched. Don't try to go all the way down, just enough to feel the stretch in the hamstring. If you can’t touch your toes without bending your knees, then it is okay to keep a slight bend in your knees. In the mean time work on your flexibility. If you don't you'll end up having the same problem with squats at some point. There was a video given :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtevN0SWp-o&feature=player_embedded

This helps! Me anyway

Thank you for posting :flowerforyou:

cmeiron

Wow.

Hm.

I really like the RDLs that I've been doing... but maybe I'll give this variation a try next week. My only concern is that I've been training my body to deal with heavier loads for RDL...is it going to freak out with the new lift?

Hm.

I've read that the RDL is fair substitute for the SLDL, and that it can help with the flexibility that'll let you do the SLDL since you basically lower the bar until you feel the pull in the hamstrings (in theory, going lower over time & as you improve your strength and flexibility), but it's definitely not the same exercise.

Other than the mechanics, can anyone describe/clarify the differences in terms of the muscles being targeted in the two?

jasonheyd

Other than the mechanics, can anyone describe/clarify the differences in terms of the muscles being targeted in the two?

From the link above: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112127931

The Stiff leg deadlift

The Stiff leg deadlift is another good assistance or hamstring/glute/low back exercise. The SLDL is generally a bit tougher on the lower back due to the mechanics of the lift and the position of the load.

Though similar to the RDL, there are several key differences. First, the SLDL starts from the floor. Because of this, it will generally have a slightly longer RoM than the RDL. The back angle will also be more horizontal than in any other kind of pull and as a result the bar will start slightly away from the shins in order to accomodate the necessary relationship between the scapulae and the bar. As little knee bend as necessary should be used, and by keeping the knees back the weight will maintain its tendency to ride over the mid foot, especially as the bar gets heavier.

In the SLDL, the bar will remain out, away from the shins until the scapulae begin to rotate back behind the bar, around the time that the bar passes above the knees.

To perform the SLDL, assume your regular deadlift stance. Unlock the knees slightly and set them in position, chest up, back arched, take a big breath and perform the rep. Then lower it back to the floor for the next repetition.

Double overhand, hook grip or straps are all desireable for the same reasons that apply to the RDL.

The Romanian Deadlift...

The Romanian deadlift does a particularly good job of working the hamstrings and glutes while being a bit easier on the lower back than the SLDL. It also provides some good isometric work for the erectors and even the lats (which are worked hard keeping the bar in against the leg) but of course these are not the primary muscles targeted.

Romanian deadlifts begin at the hang. Make sure to keep your weight on your heels, and your back arched. Knees will be slightly flexed throughout the lift, and focus on pushing the hips back, chest up and your back arched. Go down as low as you can while keeping the back in extension. Some find it helpful to think of the hips as a hinge.The bar must remain against the leg for the entire lift.

The RDL purposefully takes advantage of the stretch reflex, so it should be used. Flexibility may limit one's range of motion initially, which is fine. RDL's are a great way of increasing hamstring extensability over time.

Double overhand, hook grip or straps are recommened, as a mixed grip can compromise the ability to keep the bar in against the leg as effectively as possible, as well as subject the shoulders to asymetric stress.

I think the bold text above is the primary difference, and it mostly comes down to a shifting of some of the work to different areas, making it a bit more of an isolation exercise, and a bit less fully-compound.

jasonheyd

The other link above provides some additional detail:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/rdl-vs-sldl.html

Muscles Targeted

Both the RDL and SLDL target the same primary muscles which are the glutes, hamstrings and low back (additional work is done by the upper back and gripping muscles). In this context, one of the primary difference between the RDL and SLDL is that the RDL only works the spinal erector muscles statically, as there is no movement in the spine itself.

In contrast, due to the rounding and un-rounding (flexion and extension) that occurs in the SDL, the spinal erectors are trained more dynamically in the SLDL. However, the consequence of this is also a great deal more stress on the low back and spine (including the spinal ligaments and disks); I’ll address this below.

Again, boils down to a slight shifting of the work load and a slight change in the way the work's being done, which makes the SLDL a more dynamic, "more compound" exercise.

ETA: Just want to emphasize that I'm definitely not an expert here... I'm going from what I've read & discussed with other folks who're more in the know than I am, but the above makes sense to me for a number of reasons, not the least of which being that the RDL is much easier to execute than a proper SLDL.

cmeiron

Thanks, that's super-helpful. :flowerforyou:

I think I may stick with the RDLs; I like the move and I'm nervous about anything that puts undue strain on the lower spine (I have some low-back/hip alignment and some mild degenerative disk issues that so far haven't been aggravated by the RDLs). I'll try some lighter reps with the SLDL form and see how it feels, though.

paprad

This helps! Me anyway

Thank you for posting :flowerforyou:

Welcome!

Somewhere else, when I read up on SLDLs, it said that to prevent the back from rounding, one should look straight ahead at the mirror - the act of looking at yourself apparently prevents the back from rounding. If you look at your toes, that can happen.

paprad

Re muscles worked : from the AllPro thread : SLDL - Target is lower back, Glutes and Hamstrings, but also Rhomboid, Lats, Quads, Ab's and Obliques

Re weights for SLDL : this is what he said to someone who asked :

You'll end up doing SLDLs with the same weight that you can squat for the same reps. Don't push it. Most people today have very weak lower backs so if nothing else you're in the majority. Your spinal erectors and abs will get stronger soon enough

Here's another video - given by AllPro
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&p=418096551&viewfull=1#post418096551

One more point, he adds elsewhere, not to lean back at the top of the lift, it can give an unnecessary strain to the back.

For those with bad backs - my yoga guru used to tell us that strong hamstrings are key to a good lower back - they act like elastic bands and when you lift, they help take up the slack, easing the pressure off the lower back. So doing SLDLs which target the hamstrings, would actually help with the lower back over a period of time. The AllPro thread had some endorsements by people with back problems saying they started the pure SLDLs light and progressed overtime and their backs have become better as a result.

cmeiron

Another good video. There seems to be some level of variation on the amount of curvature in the upper back...some seem to really curve it and let the shoulders drop forward, while the guy in the video paprad just posted maintains an arch similar to that of the RDL and doesn't drop his shoulders nearly as much.

paprad

AllPro had been so insistent that SLDLs were an essential part of the routine and not to be substituted with by other exercises, that I got curious and did a forum-search of AllPro+SLDL and got the following snippets (quoted below). Since these are in reply to various questions, they come up all over the thread.

I notice that earlier he said that the SLDL should be taken down only as far as the hams feel the tension, later there is talk of going much lower - as flexibility improves, I guess.. One of the questions referenced the LyleM article linked upthread.

Also - a bit confusing - earlier he talks of keeping the knees a bit bent only if flexibility is lacking - later he says that SLDL must be done with bent knees. The videos however, seem to show RDL having more of a bend in the knees than the SLDL has. Perhaps there is a distinction between a "bend" and just not having locked knees?

I am also a bit foxed about the mid-section bit, heh

They give a confusing definition <this was in response to a question on SLDL versus RDL> but the name stiff leg dead lift isn't really correct. Your knees have a slight bend in them just like the RDL. The difference is in the depth. I've said some where in this monster thread that once you gain the flexibility, stand on something so that you can lower the bar to the tops of your feet. For the RDL you NEVER do that. The RDL is a much heavier lift geared more toward boosting your dead lift strength. The SLDL is geared more toward flexibility. Reading through this thread will explain why I chose it. Flexibility and weak backs are chronic. It needs to be addressed before attempting heavier lifts. The SLDL will address it very effectively.
...
Because the range of motion is less and the leverage is better because of it, the RDLs are a heavier lift. For SLDLs keep your back as flat as possible. It's more of a weighted toe touch with slightly bent knees
...
For SLDLs, keep a slight bend in your knees and stick your butt out as you bend over. You're only suppose to feel them in your hamstrings and spinal erectors
...
The 2 lifts are 'almost' identical. The SLDLs have a greater range of motion and will by necessity be lighter that RDLs. As time goes by the SLDLs will build the entire posterior chain to a greater degree and the RLDLs will target spinal erectors to a greater degree. You can't do RLDLs while standing on a milk crate and starting with the bar resting on your feet. They're to damned heavy for that. ...
The range of motion is why I chose SLDLs. I wanted to cover the entire posterior chain and flexibility in one shot. RLDLs have a shorter range of motion. DLs with this program are out of the question. As low as your flexibility allows. Think weighted toe touch with slightly bent knees. When you develop excellent flexibility you'll be able to do them while standing on a milk crate. That's the difference between SLDL and RDL. Range of motion and weight. RDLs are heavier but they always start and end at the floor while standing on the floor
...
You have to keep a slight bend in your knees to prevent injuring your back. If you try it both ways you will feel the difference immediately
...
SLDLs will not make your mid section thick. Dead lifts will.
...
I've seen people with excellent flexibility do SLDLs while standing on a milk crate. The exercise isn't as heavy as RDLs and it has a greater range of motion. In short, yes the weight should just touch the floor. The real objective is to get to the point where the bar is actually touching the tops of your feet.

cmeiron

Ugh. Why is this not straightforward :grumble:

As for the thick mid-section, I think it's just that some of these lifts can build core muscles to the point that they get larger (but this would only happen if you're bulking), so your waist gets the appearance of being thicker/wider (but presumably also more muscular).

claston77

Jeez Louise! I think I'm more confused then when I first asked :laugh:

Thanks everyone for the input though...this site needs a 'like' button :flowerforyou:

sun_fish

For SLDLs keep your back as flat as possible.

So the SLDL doesn't have a rounded back like videos show? I am rethinking this whole thing now too, maybe will try doing the SLDL next time. My weights are still very light and just getting ready to start week 3 so I am really working on form right now anyway.

jasonheyd

AllPro had been so insistent that SLDLs were an essential part of the routine and not to be substituted with by other exercises, that I got curious and did a forum-search of AllPro+SLDL and got the following snippets (quoted below). Since these are in reply to various questions, they come up all over the thread.

Good post, thanks.

I should've clarified in my earlier post that All Pro basically says stick with the SLDL and your flexibility will improve, but I've seen some other folks chime in that the RDL can be used to build up to the SLDL even though it's not a substitute.

I'd also forgotten the milk-crate thing... Reminded me of a guy back in college who used to actually do a SLDL with a weighted bar that he dropped *below* his feet by standing on the edge of an anchored step-box. Can't imagine not killing myself even attempting that. :frown:

jasonheyd

Perhaps there is a distinction between a "bend" and just not having locked knees?

Yep, that's always been my take... SLDL is just "not locked" whereas, with the RDL, you want your knees actually bent at a fairly significant angle.

So the SLDL doesn't have a rounded back like videos show?

That's my understanding, although I've also read that some professional weightlifters will round the upper back to take advantage of their unique muscular-skeletal anatomy, individual strengths, etc. For pathetic newbies like me, it's try to keep it as flat as possible, with the lower back inversely arched.

jasonheyd

Ugh. Why is this not straightforward :grumble:

If you really want to induce cerebral hemorrhaging, pick up Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" and read through the "HOWTO" sections re: proper form for each of the core exercises.

Just be prepared to have an anatomy chart or two handy for reference while you read about which muscles, tendons, and bones are engaged in what fashion & what order.

cmeiron

Ugh. Why is this not straightforward :grumble:

If you really want to induce cerebral hemorrhaging, pick up Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" and read through the "HOWTO" sections re: proper form for each of the core exercises.

Just be prepared to have an anatomy chart or two handy for reference while you read about which muscles, tendons, and bones are engaged in what fashion & what order.

My brain hurts already (But you know, I probably will do this anyways. I'm a glutton for punishment like that :laugh: )

sun_fish

Ugh. Why is this not straightforward :grumble:

If you really want to induce cerebral hemorrhaging, pick up Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" and read through the "HOWTO" sections re: proper form for each of the core exercises.

Just be prepared to have an anatomy chart or two handy for reference while you read about which muscles, tendons, and bones are engaged in what fashion & what order.

I bought this book a couple of weeks ago. I guess it's time to open it :ohwell: