Test day Drama

pandorakick

Just did my test day, but as I don't have stats for next cycle yet I thought to start a new thread about testing woes instead of cluttering up the stats thread.

As expected I just failed my way through my C4W5D1 workout, only the bench press and SLDL went as they should with the first workset. And even those didn't go perfect with the second set: with the presses I lost good form at the 12th rep and with the DL's my grip gave out. All other exercises were failed at 7 or 8 reps in both the first and second set. :explode:

As mentioned before, I'm having so much trouble this and previous cycle, that I suspect I went up in weight on some exercises where I really shouldn't have. Also, the amount of failure seems to indicate that something different is also going on. I think I've probably overtrained. :grumble:

I was thinking of doing the following: finish this cycle as good as I can, then take a rest week. I'm going on vacation and won't have weights available for that week anyway. After that retest my 10rm and take cycle 5 from there. Today's results however suggest that I probably also better skip remaining cycle 4 workouts. :sad:

What are your ideas on this?

claston77

Sorry to hear about the drama but imo a break sounds like a good idea. Even though deloads are technically built into the program I can see when you've gone several cycles where have a complete week or two off could be a good idea as well. When you come back from vacay your muscles (and mind) will be rested enough to take another go at it. I think your plan is a good one and would be the best approach with the longterm in mind.

cmeiron

Oh dear :frown:

That's a lot of failure - more than I would think is "normal" at this stage? I'm going to go with "you need a break/overtraining". I would do exactly what you suggested - take the rest of the week off from the lifting (or maybe scale back the weights on everything if you do finish the last two workouts) but maybe still do light cardio/stretching/etc., then enjoy your vacay and take the time off of everything (except maybe walking and stuff of that nature), and eat well. You could retest your max or maybe just retry c4w5d1? That might be cheating though....

jimmmer

Just did my test day, but as I don't have stats for next cycle yet I thought to start a new thread about testing woes instead of cluttering up the stats thread.

As expected I just failed my way through my C4W5D1 workout, only the bench press and SLDL went as they should with the first workset. And even those didn't go perfect with the second set: with the presses I lost good form at the 12th rep and with the DL's my grip gave out. All other exercises were failed at 7 or 8 reps in both the first and second set. :explode:

As mentioned before, I'm having so much trouble this and previous cycle, that I suspect I went up in weight on some exercises where I really shouldn't have. Also, the amount of failure seems to indicate that something different is also going on. I think I've probably overtrained. :grumble:

I was thinking of doing the following: finish this cycle as good as I can, then take a rest week. I'm going on vacation and won't have weights available for that week anyway. After that retest my 10rm and take cycle 5 from there. Today's results however suggest that I probably also better skip remaining cycle 4 workouts. :sad:

What are your ideas on this?

Eat more/sleep more.

It almost always comes down to one of these two. Keep going until your hols, have a great time, eat/drink/be merry!, then come back refreshed and have at it.

I take it you're still cutting?

jasonheyd

So, a few thoughts, and no idea if any of them apply to your situation... I know you've posted more details about your routine specifics, but my memory ain't what it should be. :-)

If you're tweaking All Pro's routine -- adding exercises, doing additional strength training, adding too much hard cardio, adding more than 10% weight per cycle, not resting between workout days, not resting sufficiently or too long between sets -- then the failures you're seeing seem like the "norm," given one or more of those things. Obviously some "tweaks" are worse than others, but combinations are magnifying.

From a lot of reading & a lot of chatting with people who've used this routine for far longer than I have, and who've made just about every mistake that can be made, the routine is REALLY easy to underestimate.

What I mean is that, while it's called "simple," it's really no such thing, except that it should be simple to follow.

The mix of exercises, the way the three-day sets work (work, medium, light) , the way the progression through cycles work (12 rep to add 10% or stay where you are, per exercise) all work together in a pretty incredibly balanced fashion. Messing with the balance -- for so long as you're a "beginner" -- is a recipe for disaster.

SO... dunno if that's helpful, but... A little rest doesn't sound like a bad idea, and it might not be a bad idea to step back a cycle in terms of the weight that you're pushing. This routine's all about the work, and almost zero about the weight.

ETA: ... and spot on re: eat more, rest more, or both.

pandorakick

Eat more/sleep more.

It almost always comes down to one of these two. Keep going until your hols, have a great time, eat/drink/be merry!, then come back refreshed and have at it.

I take it you're still cutting?

Nope, haven't been cutting since February. I have been upping my daily intake regularly though, because I still - slowly- lost weight. The last month I've been around 2000 kcal per day including lifting, but excluding calories earned with cardio. My weight seems to have stabilised.

I'll be sure to eat, drink and all that jazz. I won't be logging while away as well

pandorakick

So, a few thoughts, and no idea if any of them apply to your situation... I know you've posted more details about your routine specifics, but my memory ain't what it should be. :-)

If you're tweaking All Pro's routine -- adding exercises, doing additional strength training, adding too much hard cardio, adding more than 10% weight per cycle, not resting between workout days, not resting sufficiently or too long between sets -- then the failures you're seeing seem like the "norm," given one or more of those things. Obviously some "tweaks" are worse than others, but combinations are magnifying.

From a lot of reading & a lot of chatting with people who've used this routine for far longer than I have, and who've made just about every mistake that can be made, the routine is REALLY easy to underestimate.

What I mean is that, while it's called "simple," it's really no such thing, except that it should be simple to follow.

The mix of exercises, the way the three-day sets work (work, medium, light) , the way the progression through cycles work (12 rep to add 10% or stay where you are, per exercise) all work together in a pretty incredibly balanced fashion. Messing with the balance -- for so long as you're a "beginner" -- is a recipe for disaster.

SO... dunno if that's helpful, but... A little rest doesn't sound like a bad idea, and it might not be a bad idea to step back a cycle in terms of the weight that you're pushing. This routine's all about the work, and almost zero about the weight.

ETA: ... and spot on re: eat more, rest more, or both.

Thank you for your input as well Jason! I haven't been tweaking the routine besides doing it with dumbbells. I haven't been exactly timing my rest intervals though, and that combined with some exercises with questionable form counted as "pass" could very well have lead to this result. It probably also didn't help that I started running for my cardio (5-7 km) through C25K a few months back.

I'll take my rest and be back with a vengance in August! :glasses:

jasonheyd

Thank you for your input as well Jason! I haven't been tweaking the routine besides doing it with dumbbells. I haven't been exactly timing my rest intervals though, and that combined with some exercises with questionable form counted as "pass" could very well have lead to this result. It probably also didn't help that I started running for my cardio (5-7 km) through C25K a few months back.

I'll take my rest and be back with a vengance in August! :glasses:

Dumbbells aren't a worry.. No other option if you can't lift the weight of a barbell for some / all of your warm-up, medium, light or work days.

Hard to say with the cardio... It can definitely take some gas out of the tank if it's a hard work-out. C25k isn't exactly HIIT, but it's interval based & should mix speed/endurance at least.

Questionable form can be a big one, for two reasons: (1) A lot of these exercises *will* be harder if your form is better, so if you're improving your form, then you're actually doing more work for the same exercise / weight / reps. (2) It's not uncommon for form to go bad because you're pushing beyond your limit. If I feel my form go bad on a given rep (e.g. #12), then I consider the prior rep (#11) to be my fail point. If I can't finish my target reps for a given cycle with proper form intact, it's not a pass.

pandorakick

Thank you for your input, sure gives food for thought!

paprad

So - I finish Cycle1 this week and today is my Test Day. My weights are modest enough so I had better move on from this, and last week wasn't too tough, so I think I should manage to eke out another rep this evening.

But, dang if I am not all nervy, like going to write an important exam. I can already feel my old shoulder injury twinge in anticipation. I skipped my yoga this morning so as to conserve energy, hah. And I slept an extra hour and pigged a large breakfast, under the "eat-more-rest-more" logic.

pandorakick

So - I finish Cycle1 this week and today is my Test Day. My weights are modest enough so I had better move on from this, and last week wasn't too tough, so I think I should manage to eke out another rep this evening.

But, dang if I am not all nervy, like going to write an important exam. I can already feel my old shoulder injury twinge in anticipation. I skipped my yoga this morning so as to conserve energy, hah. And I slept an extra hour and pigged a large breakfast, under the "eat-more-rest-more" logic.

I have no doubt you'll rock your workout!

jimmmer

So - I finish Cycle1 this week and today is my Test Day. My weights are modest enough so I had better move on from this, and last week wasn't too tough, so I think I should manage to eke out another rep this evening.

But, dang if I am not all nervy, like going to write an important exam. I can already feel my old shoulder injury twinge in anticipation. I skipped my yoga this morning so as to conserve energy, hah. And I slept an extra hour and pigged a large breakfast, under the "eat-more-rest-more" logic.

Don't defeat yourself in the mind before you touch the bar! You've done all the work leading up to it for 5 weeks, eaten right, rested well. You feel fresh and energised?

It's a mental game. Dominate the bar (or dumbbells), bend the iron to your will! See the goal and make it happen. Nothing can stop you!

cmeiron

So - I finish Cycle1 this week and today is my Test Day. My weights are modest enough so I had better move on from this, and last week wasn't too tough, so I think I should manage to eke out another rep this evening.

But, dang if I am not all nervy, like going to write an important exam. I can already feel my old shoulder injury twinge in anticipation. I skipped my yoga this morning so as to conserve energy, hah. And I slept an extra hour and pigged a large breakfast, under the "eat-more-rest-more" logic.

Don't defeat yourself in the mind before you touch the bar! You've done all the work leading up to it for 5 weeks, eaten right, rested well. You feel fresh and energised?

It's a mental game. Dominate the bar (or dumbbells), bend the iron to your will! See the goal and make it happen. Nothing can stop you!

^^^

Hell to the yeah!!! :drinker: :drinker: :drinker:

claston77

It's a mental game. Dominate the bar (or dumbbells), bend the iron to your will! See the goal and make it happen. Nothing can stop you!

OMG! This is soooo true! I dragged myself to the gym at 5:30 this mornong for my test day and after my first work set of squats I thought I was going to die...right there on the gym floor. The difference between 11 and 12 reps is massive :laugh: But as I stood there literally panting like a dog and sweating I just decided there was no way in H#LL I was going to fail anything on Cycle 1 :laugh: and I took my full 90 second rest in between worksets and managed to pass everything although the upright rows and DB shoulder press was a bit of a struggle but I did it!

Of course I was so worn out when it was done but it was a good worn out so paprad go on and do the thing! :flowerforyou:

cmeiron

It's a mental game. Dominate the bar (or dumbbells), bend the iron to your will! See the goal and make it happen. Nothing can stop you!

OMG! This is soooo true! I dragged myself to the gym at 5:30 this mornong for my test day and after my first work set of squats I thought I was going to die...right there on the gym floor. The difference between 11 and 12 reps is massive :laugh: But as I stood there literally panting like a dog and sweating I just decided there was no way in H#LL I was going to fail anything on Cycle 1 :laugh: and I took my full 90 second rest in between worksets and managed to pass everything although the upright rows and DB shoulder press was a bit of a struggle but I did it!

Of course I was so worn out when it was done but it was a good worn out so paprad go on and do the thing! :flowerforyou:

YAY! Awesome work! Way to power through it!!!

paprad

eaten right, rested well. You feel fresh and energised?

Actually i goofed by going to the theatre to see a play last night, had some junk food there, so dinner was a washout and returned home so late and so charged up that i went to sleep at 2 in the morning. 4 hours sleep. So, badly fed and badly rested and that's what made me nervy. Note to self : no painting town red on night before Test Day!

Anyhoo - I put on Eye of the Tiger and Another One Bites The Dust on my player - I thought it was very symbolic - had a blast. But whoa, Claston is so right, who knew 1 more rep would be so much tougher! The squats were a bit tough at the end, though form was fine - I was reading about "spreading the floor" on squats last week, and I had to tell myself that today was *not* the day to be experimenting with form.

So yes, got through it all, huffing and puffing. I think form was fine - except in OHP - where I felt my wrist was pronating a bit - the two dumbbells were not looking parallel at the top - does that matter? I was so distracted by the sight of the angle of the dumbbell, that I kept twirling my wrist this way and that (it's very disorienting, doing that in the mirror) and ended up holding them up for longer than I should've.

Funnily the one where I felt some strain was the Bicep Curls which is normally not a problem - I tried this little thing recommended in TNation - where you hold the dumbbell off-centre and curl it in towards the shoulder at the top - had no problem doing this for 4 weeks but today it was so tough. I might keep the same weight for Bicep Curls or drop this wrist curl in the end.

Cycle2, here I come!

Thanks for all the encouragement guys!

paprad

I did it!

Yay! That's great Claston! I see we are Cycle Buddies. :flowerforyou:

jasonheyd

Congrats.

Came across this All Pro post while surfing away my coffee break this morning & thought it was appropriate. ;-)

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=634720&p=12137211&highlight=rest+day#post12137211

In every gym you've worked out at, you've seen the ugly grimaces of bodybuilders engaged in maximum effort under heavy iron. Too bad you couldn't look into the minds of these bodybuilders, for if you could, you would then be able to determine whether they were truly involved in high intensity training. It is the mind, the controlling entity of the organism, which determines the degree of effort expended. It is not the level of ugliness to which one can contort one's face.
INTENSITY DEFINED

WHAT DOES "INTENSITY" MEAN?
"Intensity" is increased by:
* amplification of mental effort -- getting "psyched"
* approaching your training with a burning passion, as though it were your
LIFE
* adding reps
* adding weight
* decreasing rest between reps
* decreasing rest between sets
* increasing the number of exercises per bodypart
* increasing the total number of exercises or bodyparts trained at one
session
* increasing the number of training sessions per day
* increasing the speed of movement
* increasing the amount of work done at the anaerobic threshold (maximum
pain tolerance)
* increasing the amount of eccentric work your muscles are required to perform.
Webster defines intensity as having or showing the characteristic of strength, force, straining, or (relative to a bodybuilder's focal point) other aspects of his or her effort to a maximum degree. The words intense and intent both have the same Latin root, intendere "to stretch out." If one is intent on doing something, he does so, by definition, with strained or eager attention-with concentration! That intensity of effort is largely a function of the mind is not this writer's opinion. It is true by definition as well as by practical usage of the word!

NOT EVERYONE CAN TRAIN WITH INTENSITY

In the early years of your training, do you remember approaching a weight with determination? Your jaw was set, your mind narrowed to a laser-like focus, the adrenaline poured into your blood, and your training partners' screams reverberated in your subconscious. You were READY! Your mind and body were both saying, "GO!"

All the essential ingredients for intensity were there. You wedged your body under the iron, and with a Herculean effort, you lifted the weight from the racks. You stepped back and got set. Down you went. And there you stayed!

What happened? Chances are it was that little bitty devil that resides in all of us saying, "No! Don't hurt me!"

The link between the mind and body is a strong one, and doubt (that little bitty devil) is stronger still. Until you master, or eliminate entirely, such disruptive anomalies of the mind, your training efforts will always be something less than maximal. Achieving this mastery over mind and body is possible only upon enhancing the intercommunication processes between the two.

THE MIND-BODY LINK

Try to picture your brain and your biceps interconnected by nerves, much the same as a printed circuit might look. Within the brain are your memories and impressions of the way your body responded to that missed 150-pound set of curls you attempted last week. It was the first time you have tried such a heavy weight, and it felt heavy. Deep within your soul you knew that you wouldn't make it, and now that you've actually failed this same doubt response has been fortified.

In the biceps, at the very end where the tendon begins, you have tiny sensory mechanisms that are designed to send messages of stress to the brain. If the motor memory of past failures is equaled or exceeded by the strength of the sensory message coming from the working biceps, you will again fail. Your job, if progress is to be made, is to alter both the brain's response as well as the level at which the inhibitory response is initiated at the biceps muscle's tendon.

This sensory mechanism is called the Golgi tendon organ. It's excitation threshold (the point at which the weight is too great and an inhibitory message is sent) can be pushed back with proper training. So, too, can the motor memory stored in the brain be modified to ensure success.

SUCCESS BEGETS SUCCESS

When you increase the intensity of your workout, there's a price that must
be paid. That price, in case you haven't figured it out yet, is DISCIPLINE
in finding ways of improving your recuperative ability. You do this by:
* pre-workout meal of low glycemic index foods
* pre-workout use of appropriate supplements
* during-workout use of appropriate supplements
* post-exercise cooldown (stretching, calisthenics)
* post-cooldown whirlpool of affected muscles
* post-whirlpool massage of affected muscles
* post-massage visualization training, autogenic training, TM or self-hypnosis
* scheduling 5-6 meals daily
* ensuring that each meal follows the 1-2-3 rule
* taking at least one 20-30 minute nap per day
* working closely with a sportsmedicine and or a sports sciences expert.
Sometimes, both your nervous system and your muscles need rest, just like
your mind does. And, perhaps the most important reason for this is that if you continue to apply maximum intensity to your muscles, the level of adaptation they can accommodate will fail.
If you have never experienced failure under heavy iron, then the chances of doubt creeping in will be remote. In that case, pardner, you're the quintessential pencilneck. (Not to worry. Pencilnecks needn't remain in that condition forever. All ya gotta do is put yourself at risk of failure under heavy iron multiple times over years, and learn by the seat of your pants not to fail while doing so.)

And, if you have trained for years with heavy weights without exceeding your capabilities but pushing them to the maximum, your Golgi tendon organs will not be stimulated to forward inhibitory messages to the brain. Still a pencilneck. It sounds like a Catch-22 situation, but nonetheless it's true. Success will indeed beget success, and failure will beget failure.

When you have learned the very important lesson of avoiding failure while training, you will have attained the ability to train with intensity. Until that time, your efforts will be something less than maximal, and they will be something less than maximally beneficial. The real secret, fellow iron freaks, is to taste the burning pain of failure -- in your heart and mind -- and conquer it!

TRAINING SITUATIONS THAT REQUIRE INTENSITY

Some methods of training, to be truly effective, require high intensity on your part. Others do not. In fact, the injection of intensity may render some methods counterproductive! This is particularly true in certain sports-oriented training methods where speed is required. Intensifying such rapid movements can easily result in severe injury. While laser focus is needed, all-out effort with maximum muscular strain may not be.

During off-season periods when low-rep training for strength and density is emphasized, intensity becomes of paramount importance. For example, suppose you are doing five or six reps per set. Of course, the first two or three reps will require something less than maximum effort since fatigue has not diminished your capacity as yet. This is not the way to approach your sets! Each and every rep you perform must be done with maximum intensity! Further, maximum intensity should be applied throughout every inch of movement in each rep! Why? The effect that this kind of thorough intensity has on the Golgi tendon organ is such that de-inhibition will, over time, take place. Repeated applications of maximum stress is the only way known to force the Golgi tendon organ to delay sending its inhibitory message to the brain. Such delayed inhibitory response results in increased strength of contraction. In turn, the increased strength yields greater size resulting from greater poundages being used.

One thing that's often overlooked is that you can't ALWAYS train hard! You have to balance periods of high intensity training with periods of low intensity training.
1. Big muscles take longer to recover than smaller ones
2. Fast twitch muscles (your "explosive" muscles) take longer to recover than slow twitch muscle fibers ("endurance" muscles);
3. Guys recover faster than girls;
4. You recover faster from slow movements than from fast movements;
5. You recover faster from low intensity training than from high intensity training.
6. The older you get, the longer it takes to recover
During periods in your training cycle when higher reps with a lighter weight are performed, intensity is no less important, although for a different reason. High-rep training produces intolerable lactic acid levels within the muscle; and effort fails from fatigue. Doubt no longer becomes the inhibitory factor, since the weight isn't heavy enough to jeopardize your safety. Rather, fatigue does, and you must through extreme concentration, "will" the weight up. You must disregard the signals your pain sensors are sending to the brain. Concerted effort of this type will, over time, force a different kind of de-inhibition to occur.

Perhaps it is a greater electrochemical impulse that allows muscle fibers with higher excitation thresholds to respond. Perhaps it is a lowering of the excitation thresholds of these same hard-to-stimulate muscle fibers. It could also be both.

The point is that de-inhibition will indeed occur, and the only way to force it to occur is to coax and "intimidate" your muscles into responding. And you have to ignore the pain to do it. It becomes a matter of mind over muscle. This kind of training must be learned. It is not an innate response, and neither is it easily acquired.

Like your low-rep training, the key to learning how to apply maximum intensity is to use as heavy weights as possible in each and every overload set you do, yet avoid failure like the plague! If your mind says "no," you've succumbed. You've failed, go home! Come back to the gym tomorrow with a renewed determination not to fail. Make your mind say, "Yes," and then obey the command!

When a harmonious and synchronized link between your body and mind is re-established, you will experience gains in muscle size more rapidly than ever before. When you begin to realize the awesome power of the mind in controlling bodily functions, including its adaptability to stress, you will have learned what it takes to become a champion bodybuilder.

-- Adapted from: Hatfield, F.C. Hardcore Bodybuilding: A Scientific Approach, Contemporary Books, 1993.

claston77

Cycle2, here I come!

Whoo Hoo! :drinker:

jimmmer

eaten right, rested well. You feel fresh and energised?

Actually i goofed by going to the theatre to see a play last night, had some junk food there, so dinner was a washout and returned home so late and so charged up that i went to sleep at 2 in the morning. 4 hours sleep. So, badly fed and badly rested and that's what made me nervy. Note to self : no painting town red on night before Test Day!

Anyhoo - I put on Eye of the Tiger and Another One Bites The Dust on my player - I thought it was very symbolic - had a blast. But whoa, Claston is so right, who knew 1 more rep would be so much tougher! The squats were a bit tough at the end, though form was fine - I was reading about "spreading the floor" on squats last week, and I had to tell myself that today was *not* the day to be experimenting with form.

So yes, got through it all, huffing and puffing. I think form was fine - except in OHP - where I felt my wrist was pronating a bit - the two dumbbells were not looking parallel at the top - does that matter? I was so distracted by the sight of the angle of the dumbbell, that I kept twirling my wrist this way and that (it's very disorienting, doing that in the mirror) and ended up holding them up for longer than I should've.

Funnily the one where I felt some strain was the Bicep Curls which is normally not a problem - I tried this little thing recommended in TNation - where you hold the dumbbell off-centre and curl it in towards the shoulder at the top - had no problem doing this for 4 weeks but today it was so tough. I might keep the same weight for Bicep Curls or drop this wrist curl in the end.

Cycle2, here I come!

Thanks for all the encouragement guys!

Ha ha! Congrats!

I did the same last night - worked past midnight and got up too early to boot. I'm only on week 2 of my current cycle and I found it really tough going.... not enough sleep's a real bugger! If it had been week 5, I might have been in real trouble!

pandorakick

Thought to post an update here on how it went after my holiday. I did W1D1 of cycle 5 this morning, using the exact same weights as previous cycle. It was still very hard though. So this Wednesday I will re-take my 10rm test after all and start cycle 5 for real next Saturday. Guess the extra rest and food wasn't quite enough to get me out of this lifting regression.

jasonheyd

Thought to post an update here on how it went after my holiday. I did W1D1 of cycle 5 this morning, using the exact same weights as previous cycle. It was still very hard though. So this Wednesday I will re-take my 10rm test after all and start cycle 5 for real next Saturday. Guess the extra rest and food wasn't quite enough to get me out of this lifting regression.

If you're still cutting then you're also at the point where it's going to be much harder and take much longer to progress. It'll still happen, but especially once your 10 RM (week 3) feels hard for every exercise, this program gets brutal at a calorie deficit.

pandorakick

Unfortunately eating at a deficit probably isn't the cause of my troubles, I've been maintaining since February. Since yesterday I'm cutting again though, to get into the right BF% range for bulking this fall. I think the most probable cause is prolonged work related stress. Can't change that easily though... :grumble:

jasonheyd

Unfortunately eating at a deficit probably isn't the cause of my troubles, I've been maintaining since February. Since yesterday I'm cutting again though, to get into the right BF% range for bulking this fall. I think the most probable cause is prolonged work related stress. Can't change that easily though... :grumble:

Yeah, I've been there as well. Best remedy for that is probably a little more sleep, assuming work stress isn't waking you up in the middle of the night. Winning lotto ticket might be a better bet. ;-)

pandorakick

Yeah, I've been there as well. Best remedy for that is probably a little more sleep, assuming work stress isn't waking you up in the middle of the night. Winning lotto ticket might be a better bet. ;-)

Well, if you know where I could get a winning ticket :laugh:

jasonheyd

Well, if you know where I could get a winning ticket :laugh:

If I find out, you'll be the second to know. ;-)