About rep ranges

paprad

I was reading another post on "lifting heavy" and someone said

The heavy lifting people most often push is in the 5 rep range, bodybuilding for muscle growth happens most in the 8-12 rep range for most body parts, so heavy lifting =/= body building.

which confused me, because elsewhere I read that it is better for beginners to do a 8-12 rep range.

So what does this really mean in terms of muscle growth/strength - and fat loss? i did read about hypertrophy but I wasn't too clear about why this range is better for beginners versus something like Stronglifts. I do want to get stronger and fitter, no doubt - but I also need to lose a lot of fat - I do realize that fat loss is engineered in the kitchen - and while on a deficit, all lifting will do for me is help maintain LBM - but is the 8-12 range better for that, versus the higher weights with lower reps?

jimmmer

I was reading another post on "lifting heavy" and someone said

The heavy lifting people most often push is in the 5 rep range, bodybuilding for muscle growth happens most in the 8-12 rep range for most body parts, so heavy lifting =/= body building.

which confused me, because elsewhere I read that it is better for beginners to do a 8-12 rep range.

So what does this really mean in terms of muscle growth/strength - and fat loss? i did read about hypertrophy but I wasn't too clear about why this range is better for beginners versus something like Stronglifts. I do want to get stronger and fitter, no doubt - but I also need to lose a lot of fat - I do realize that fat loss is engineered in the kitchen - and while on a deficit, all lifting will do for me is help maintain LBM - but is the 8-12 range better for that, versus the higher weights with lower reps?

8-12 rep range is ideal for cutting because it leaves you feeling less "beat up" than 5x5 routines. It'll still leave you feeling beat up in the end if you cut for long enough, mind.

Because you are handling comparatively lighter weights than 5RM lifting with 10RM lifting, you can gently nail the form without doing yourself massive mischief as well. So that's great for beginners, too.

You could theoretically, do 5x5 while cutting as a beginner and learn the form slowly but surely and lose fat. There is no "one true way". This routine is, however, well regarded and heavily road-tested by minions of beginners who are cutting and learning form every year. Also, people have packed on a lot of muscle doing 5 rep routines as well, so there's that.

I'll leave you with something else: I was watching a round the room question and answer session at EliteFTS where they asked all these grizzled 1RM hefting powerlifters who have ridiculously high totals in their lifts how they all started out. 5x5 routines? No, almost to a man they started out doing 3 sets of 8. They did that in someone's garage for a year or two and built a great base to take them forward.

paprad

jimmmer, thanks for that. i am pleased with the allpro routine so far - it is challenging for me, i like its simplicity and structure and sense of gradual but definite progress. growing up i only heard of 8-12 rep routines - is this 5X5 a more recent thing?

that was a great insight, btw, about the grizzled power lifters!

jimmmer

jimmmer, thanks for that. i am pleased with the allpro routine so far - it is challenging for me, i like its simplicity and structure and sense of gradual but definite progress. growing up i only heard of 8-12 rep routines - is this 5X5 a more recent thing?

that was a great insight, btw, about the grizzled power lifters!

Well, I think Reg Park used a 5x5 routine back in 60's to "bodybuild", so they've been around a while. Bill Starr's The Strongest Shall Survive (TSSS) in the 70's was the classic 5x5 and extremely popular. Rippetoe is a bit of a Starr disciple and Starting strength owes massive debts to Starr's templates. Stronglifts 5x5 is, as far as I can tell, a three-way homage to Rippetoe's Starting Strength, Madcow 5x5 (derived from Starr's routines also) and Starr himself. All Pro himself is another Starr devotee and his monster 6-3-6 programme is a tweak on Starr's original off-season protocol (although this isn't a 5x5, it is in TSSS).

There's a lot of history there and also there's nothing new under the sun! 3x8, 3x10, 10x3, 8x3, 5x5 it's been re-born and rehashed and retried over and over. Thing is, all these protocols work, or they wouldn't keep cropping up again and again. As long as the thing you're running is gelling with you and allows you adequate recovery, then it's going to produce results over time. When you get to another level, then you can worry about assistance exercises and different protocols and suchlike. Most people will never need to progress beyond a simple template since they are not training for a sport and don't need a high level of specialisation and worry about things like carry-over.

jasonheyd

Yep, jimmmer's summed it all up pretty well.

Typically the 5x5 programs are geared towards pure strength gains, and they are typically NOT cutting-friendly.

AP's SBR is intended to blend strength gains, endurance gains, and size gains. It's a more "all around" program. It's also more forgiving if you're running at a calorie deficit, but I'm coming to understand first hand why AP says it'll still be harder if you're cutting.

Pretty much all of the above are focused on compound exercises, but SBR is really the only one that's going to give you a pretty close to unlimited progression (well, ok... at least to your potential) because it's got built-in deloads & built-in governors to make sure you progress evenly across the exercises.

SL does seem to be a pretty blatant rip-off of SS, and I'm not really convinced that it's as good, let alone better... The guy's got quite a following, but I kicked it to the curb after a few weeks of getting Mehdi's ego-filled blathering in my Inbox. The difference between Mehdi's dialogue and AP's dialogue is staggering.

Like jimmmer said, AP seems to be a Bill Starr devotee, and he's specifically recommended Bill Starr's "Madcow" 5x5 for intermediate lifters...

http://madcow.wackyhq.com/geocities/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

Something to graduate to once you're no longer a "beginner" or you're at least sufficiently advanced to have run 5+ cycles of SBR & get bored with it.

paprad

Thanks jimmmer and jasonheyd - it's great to have this forum to bounce off doubts and get more insights

I kicked it to the curb after a few weeks of getting Mehdi's ego-filled blathering in my Inbox. The difference between Mehdi's dialogue and AP's dialogue is staggering.

I burst out laughing when I read that. I got a bunch of Mehdi's emails and they got so annoying I unsubscribed myself too. He really is very pleased with himself!

paprad

I felt very giggly during the Medium workout today - Cycle2. The heavy was me adjusting to the new 20% increase weight so 8 reps was a relief, but today I was back at Cycle1's heavy - but now that the reps were down to 8 I kept forgetting my count and doing 9 or 10 and then realizing I had overshot - ended up muttering the count aloud to keep track. Anyone else have this problem of adjusting the count down from 12 back to 8?

jasonheyd

I have trouble remembering no matter which week of the cycle I'm on. :P