HR Tracking/Training 101
fitoverfortymom
Posts: 3,452 Member
In my ongoing quest to improve as a runner, I'd like to know more about how HR monitoring is used to improve your running. I've tried to Google and such, but really just need some layman's information on the what, where's, and why's of training this way and what improvements I would expect to see.
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I've been using it to try and help with my pace. I'm looking at a few chest straps now to get better accuracy0
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I have been monitoring mine since I started back running in July. I've noticed a significant decrease in my average heart rate and max heart rate over time. Now my average is in the 160s but when I started it was in the high 170s and sometimes low 180s. I am able to run farther and faster now without my heart rate skyrocketing into the 180s, a range that leaves me feeling exhausted after a run. Others monitor heart rate to stay within a certain range but I found constantly worrying about my heart rate made me anxious during a run which in turn made my heart rate higher.0
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Just bought a Garmin FR-935 last night and went on my first run with it earlier. The 935 has a built in IR wrist HRM. So no more irritating chest straps that I stopped wearing long time ago. It also means my watch now tracks my HR 24/7 as well as my runs. I thought we had another (more active) discussion in the group on this subject, but it seems like this one is it. So, I am bumping this thread in hopes to get more discussion from everyone else in the group to join in on what they do if you follow a HR training plan.0
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So, like I said, I just bought a new watch that has a built in HRM. The FR-935 also has these analytics for each workout that's based upon HR and EPOC and a bunch of other stuff. My first run's analytics suggests that I may be "overreaching" on my aerobic Training Effect with a score of 5.0. With the help of Google and YouTube, this translates to, you spent too much time in the wrong heart rate zone. A good portion (the middle 14 minutes of a 50 minute run) was spend with a HR between 160 and 170. But it does caution me that my TE may calculate unusually high until I get enough workouts in. Also, research tells me that I need to make sure my max HR and HR zones are set correctly. I admit, I am a novice at heart rate training right now. So time to get smart in it.
So what are everyone else's thoughts on the subject?0 -
So, like I said, I just bought a new watch that has a built in HRM. The FR-935 also has these analytics for each workout that's based upon HR and EPOC and a bunch of other stuff. My first run's analytics suggests that I may be "overreaching" on my aerobic Training Effect with a score of 5.0. With the help of Google and YouTube, this translates to, you spent too much time in the wrong heart rate zone. A good portion (the middle 14 minutes of a 50 minute run) was spend with a HR between 160 and 170. But it does caution me that my TE may calculate unusually high until I get enough workouts in. Also, research tells me that I need to make sure my max HR and HR zones are set correctly. I admit, I am a novice at heart rate training right now. So time to get smart in it.
So what are everyone else's thoughts on the subject?
Run a Friel test for LTHR and use that number would be my advice. the zones I got from doing that have jived pretty well with my running paces and efforts, for the most part.1 -
Link on a discussion from the Long Distance Runner's Group:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10555339/max-heart-rate0 -
MNLittleFinn wrote: »So, like I said, I just bought a new watch that has a built in HRM. The FR-935 also has these analytics for each workout that's based upon HR and EPOC and a bunch of other stuff. My first run's analytics suggests that I may be "overreaching" on my aerobic Training Effect with a score of 5.0. With the help of Google and YouTube, this translates to, you spent too much time in the wrong heart rate zone. A good portion (the middle 14 minutes of a 50 minute run) was spend with a HR between 160 and 170. But it does caution me that my TE may calculate unusually high until I get enough workouts in. Also, research tells me that I need to make sure my max HR and HR zones are set correctly. I admit, I am a novice at heart rate training right now. So time to get smart in it.
So what are everyone else's thoughts on the subject?
Run a Friel test for LTHR and use that number would be my advice. the zones I got from doing that have jived pretty well with my running paces and efforts, for the most part.
This method requires a trainingpeaks account to calculate Friel test:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/joe-friel-s-quick-guide-to-setting-zones/
Joe Friel's direct blog:
http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/quick-guide-to-setting-zones.html
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2017/01/max-heart-rate-and-performance.html
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I was able to get the average HR for the last 20 minutes of my run using the data graph on Garmin connect app on my phone if select the HR graph for full screen, you can hold one finger on where you start the 20min block, hold it there, then tap at the other end and it will give you the average HR for that time. I ran the test just like he says to in the blog article. Here's an example of what it looks like, using my last run:
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Be aware that HR training is more of an art than a science. I set zones based on an estimated LTHR. Sometimes the results make sense, sometimes they don't. Weather, injury status, and possibly other factors I haven't identified can mess with the results. Even when weather is normal and I'm healthy, it takes time for my HR to move between zones; so when I do an interval workout by paces, my HR spends a lot of time in the Zone X that you're supposed to avoid. The HR graphs that look most like what the theory would predict are from races in good weather when I'm healthy.
*shrug* It's something to look at, see if it tells you anything useful, and not worry about the parts that might not make sense.2 -
@MNLittleFinn Awesome tip on how to find avg HR for the 10-30 min rage of your run. I will have to use that.
Great points @MobyCarp
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@MNLittleFinn @Stoshew71 - Another method to get the average HR for the 10 to 30 minute interval: Turn off auto-lap. Go run. Manually lap at 10 minutes. Stop or manually lap at 30 minutes. The average HR for the second lap (available when looking at lap data in Garmin Connect) will be for the 10-30 minutes period.
I didn't try this; I was happy enough looking at HR data for mile auto-laps from various races and making my guess about where LTHR is.1 -
@MNLittleFinn @Stoshew71 - Another method to get the average HR for the 10 to 30 minute interval: Turn off auto-lap. Go run. Manually lap at 10 minutes. Stop or manually lap at 30 minutes. The average HR for the second lap (available when looking at lap data in Garmin Connect) will be for the 10-30 minutes period.
I didn't try this; I was happy enough looking at HR data for mile auto-laps from various races and making my guess about where LTHR is.
Didn't even think about that. That's a great idea.0 -
Someone suggested to me to do hill repeats at the hardest pace I could manage. Do like 10-15 mins of them. Your highest HR during that is your max hr. I never did try that.
For lactate threshold, run for an hour at the fastest pace you can hold and still finish the hour (with as little in the tank as you can target). The HR you average at the end, say last 10 mins, is roughly your lactate threshold.
I have kind of moved away from HR training and got back to feel training.0 -
Also, there was a long discussion in on of the monthly threads a while back so that is probably what you were thinking of. No idea which month though
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comes in waves, I've gone back and forth between both several times in the last 2 years. I know where you're at.PastorVincent wrote: »Someone suggested to me to do hill repeats at the hardest pace I could manage. Do like 10-15 mins of them. Your highest HR during that is your max hr. I never did try that.
For lactate threshold, run for an hour at the fastest pace you can hold and still finish the hour (with as little in the tank as you can target). The HR you average at the end, say last 10 mins, is roughly your lactate threshold.
I have kind of moved away from HR training and got back to feel training.
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Having just read Fitzgerald's 80/20, I also started thinking about proper training zones recently.
I'm sure that 220-age or even the slightly more complex versions of that formula don't work for me, since at the end of 5k races or the last interval on speedwork days my HR can get close to 200, and I'm a couple years older than 20
Looking at the finish line sprint of a few races should give you an idea of your max HR, although I also like @PastorVincent 's suggestion of all-out hill repeats for 15 min. Maybe I'll do that next week, if the ground isn't icy.
Instead of maxHR, the Fitzgerald book sets the zones in terms of LTHR. I'm currently using the Friel numbers ( http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/04/determining-your-lthr.html ) for that, as @MNLittleFinn suggested.
Although I'm not really happy with the zones that gives me right now. It's impossible to stay in Zone 2 (never mind 1!) once the road is uphill for a couple hundred meters. I would have to walk. Even if I run so slow that I'm not out of breath at all, my HR just goes up too much on uphill slopes. While on longer downhills, I would have to speed up a lot more than I usually would to stay in the same zone.
Somehow, "estimated effort" and "heart rate" don't line up for me as well. So after only a handful of runs trying HR training, I'm already tempted to go back to running by feel again...0 -
@_nikkiwolf_ I kinda feel the same way. The watch is telling me that I am in my maximum HR zone and here I am singing the ABC's and national anthem with no problems. It's frustrating.0
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@_nikkiwolf_ I kinda feel the same way. The watch is telling me that I am in my maximum HR zone and here I am singing the ABC's and national anthem with no problems. It's frustrating.
Sounds like your zones are off. When I get into z3 I'm not singing or talking anymore. Top of z2 is generally starting to push it a little. I'd say to run a test and get a LTHR. I find that system to work much better for me. My zones are:
z1- 65-80%LTHR 113-139
z2- 80-89%LTHR 139-155
z3- 89-95%LTHR 155-165
z4- 95-100%LTHR 165-174
z5- 100+%LTHR 174+0 -
@Stoshew71 - I agree with @MNLittleFinn - sounds like you need to change your zones. If you are using the watch picked zones, they are definitely without a question wrong.
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@Stoshew71 - There are a lot of systems for determining HR zones, but you're an experienced marathon runner. You know what easy pace feels like, and you know what marathon pace feels like. Easy pace should be Zone 1 and Zone 2. Marathon pace should be low end of Zone 3. Zones 4 and 5 are what you get at race pace for shorter races.
So pick a system that seems to make sense to you, and fiddle with the inputs until Garmin sets up zones that make sense for how you feel when you run.1 -
@MobyCarp @PastorVincent @MNLittleFinn So you all managed to find zones that you are happy with? Also on routes that aren't flat?
I ran up and down a hill in my neighbourhood a few times tonight, but even when I run at what feels like an "easy effort" all the time, my heart rate goes up on the climbs and down on the descents... Do you really manage to keep the HR stable across different terrain?0 -
_nikkiwolf_ wrote: »@MobyCarp @PastorVincent @MNLittleFinn So you all managed to find zones that you are happy with? Also on routes that aren't flat?
I ran up and down a hill in my neighbourhood a few times tonight, but even when I run at what feels like an "easy effort" all the time, my heart rate goes up on the climbs and down on the descents... Do you really manage to keep the HR stable across different terrain?
Yes. I adjust pace when my HR gets out of zone..... when im paying attention to it, that is.0 -
_nikkiwolf_ wrote: »@MobyCarp @PastorVincent @MNLittleFinn So you all managed to find zones that you are happy with? Also on routes that aren't flat?
I ran up and down a hill in my neighbourhood a few times tonight, but even when I run at what feels like an "easy effort" all the time, my heart rate goes up on the climbs and down on the descents... Do you really manage to keep the HR stable across different terrain?
No.
As you can see my HR vs pace there is way off. That run had like 1100 or 1200 feet of elevation in it so plenty of hills. That is why you target a RANGE. So like "Moderate" for me is 139-154. That was 87% of my run. So no, cannot keep a "stable" HR, but can stay in a range.
Disclaimer: I was not paying attention to HR on this run. Just feel.
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_nikkiwolf_ wrote: »@MobyCarp @PastorVincent @MNLittleFinn So you all managed to find zones that you are happy with? Also on routes that aren't flat?
I ran up and down a hill in my neighbourhood a few times tonight, but even when I run at what feels like an "easy effort" all the time, my heart rate goes up on the climbs and down on the descents... Do you really manage to keep the HR stable across different terrain?
I am not a hard core devotee of HR training. I've looked at it, and remain aware of the issue that reasonable systems compute zones off max HR or lactic threshold HR. Neither of those numbers is easy to determine accurately.
When I look at the reserve HR method (% between resting HR and max HR) with a best guess max HR, the resulting 5 zones in Garmin make sense for me. When I look at the % of LTRH zones that have floated around the challenge (I think @MNLittleFinn uses these), again zones 1 and 2 make sense; but I have a problem with zone X that you're supposed to stay out of. It's too wide, and I spend a lot of time in an interval workout in zone X, conceptually either moving up to Zone 3 or moving down to Zone 2. So I conclude that the zones work best for me in measuring easy runs, and second best in measuring race effort. Of course, it's race effort that gives me an estimate for LTHR in the first place.
Yes, my HR goes above the target zone going up hills unless I slow way down. My best guess is that training by the HR will work best for continual runs at the same effort, which is easier to do on flat terrain.
I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, I found zones that I'm happy with; but I'm not happy with HR zone training as a major focus. It's a tool in the training tool kit, but it's not the only tool in the kit or an appropriate tool for all workouts.
And as I type this, I realize that the runs with hills where I've come closest to keeping the HR even for most of the run have all been races. Maybe it's just easier to feel race pace effort and let the hills slow me down naturally when I'm running hard, than it is to try to slow down enough on the hills so the run stays easy as measured by HR.1 -
I stopped using the Fitzgerald zones for reasons @MobyCarp talked about. I just use 5 zones that garmin has and it seems to work. I2m rarely in zone 4 though. Its mostly z2 for easy and z4 for harder running. Not aure what worours would have me in z31
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Like the others, I have gone back almost 100% to running by feel, but I still have the zones set up in Strava for after run reports. I am leaning towards the opinion that we are approaching information overload on all this running data. I mean in the end, on race day, only finish time matters. None of the rest of the stats count.
So I watch pace and distance now primarily. Trying to get to the point 8:50 feels like a comfortable run so that it can be my Marathon Pace.
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I'm about 90% like this. I'll check my HR every once in a while on runs, but I mostly run by feel. If I look at my watch and HR is above like 157, I'll cut back a little to help bring it down, but that's about it.PastorVincent wrote: »Like the others, I have gone back almost 100% to running by feel, but I still have the zones set up in Strava for after run reports. I am leaning towards the opinion that we are approaching information overload on all this running data. I mean in the end, on race day, only finish time matters. None of the rest of the stats count.
So I watch pace and distance now primarily. Trying to get to the point 8:50 feels like a comfortable run so that it can be my Marathon Pace.
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It's been quiet here for a while, but just my humble 2 cents. Last year I did a fitness test where they basically let you run on a treadmill till you drop while measuring lactic acid in your blood every 5 minutes or so. Then they estimate HR zones. Best money ever spent, as it's the most accurate measurement.1
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Starflight00 wrote: »It's been quiet here for a while, but just my humble 2 cents. Last year I did a fitness test where they basically let you run on a treadmill till you drop while measuring lactic acid in your blood every 5 minutes or so. Then they estimate HR zones. Best money ever spent, as it's the most accurate measurement.
I'd be willing to spend the money, but I don't think I'm willing to run on a treadmill for a couple of hours to get an accurate LTHR.1 -
Starflight00 wrote: »It's been quiet here for a while, but just my humble 2 cents. Last year I did a fitness test where they basically let you run on a treadmill till you drop while measuring lactic acid in your blood every 5 minutes or so. Then they estimate HR zones. Best money ever spent, as it's the most accurate measurement.
How much did it cost you?0
This discussion has been closed.