dodgy form on squats
neandermagnon
Posts: 7,436 Member
okay today on squats at 140lb I managed 5, 4, 3, 2, and then didn't do the 5th set because a) feeling dizzy when I stand up and b) kind of did something to my knee, not an injury more like a "something is not quite right with your form and you knee took the strain" - I think my knees are caving in a bit. This is my 2nd attempt at this weight. The programme says to attempt the weight 3x before deloading.
shuold I deload now or make a 3rd attempt? my form is usually good in squats, just I wasn't being vigilant about my knees for this particular rep, today. Maybe it wasn't the last workout either.
another thing, is there such a thing as too much hip drive? sometimes doing squats I go up like everything moving together, i.e. legs, hip drive, back angle stays the same and all of me moves the barbell up at once, other times it's like i have too much hip drive followed by my back angle coming up, like a mini good-morning on the end of the squat. btw this doesn't hurt my back or feel wrong. Just different, i.e. 2 different ways to squat, which is best?
and the feeling dizzy thing, I heard that's something to do with blood pressure and muscle tension in the torso or something and is a normal side effect of heavy squats and deadlifts, but seeing as I work out at home without a spotter when it happens I'm a bit concerned about attempting another rep, even after my head's gone back to normal. What's the usual thing to do about this? It's definitely not a nutritional issue as I'm currently eating at a surplus and slowly gaining weight, although I do sometimes get postural hypotension but haven't had that very much in the last few months. I used to get it quite a lot.
shuold I deload now or make a 3rd attempt? my form is usually good in squats, just I wasn't being vigilant about my knees for this particular rep, today. Maybe it wasn't the last workout either.
another thing, is there such a thing as too much hip drive? sometimes doing squats I go up like everything moving together, i.e. legs, hip drive, back angle stays the same and all of me moves the barbell up at once, other times it's like i have too much hip drive followed by my back angle coming up, like a mini good-morning on the end of the squat. btw this doesn't hurt my back or feel wrong. Just different, i.e. 2 different ways to squat, which is best?
and the feeling dizzy thing, I heard that's something to do with blood pressure and muscle tension in the torso or something and is a normal side effect of heavy squats and deadlifts, but seeing as I work out at home without a spotter when it happens I'm a bit concerned about attempting another rep, even after my head's gone back to normal. What's the usual thing to do about this? It's definitely not a nutritional issue as I'm currently eating at a surplus and slowly gaining weight, although I do sometimes get postural hypotension but haven't had that very much in the last few months. I used to get it quite a lot.
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How much are you resting between sets? Are you sleeping at least 6 hours per day?
Believe it or not there is still a possibility that you can do all reps next time. Don't deload just yet. Your reps should not be like a mini good morning.0 -
unless you have perfect diet and rest all the time all weight sessions will be different, I would give it one more go at the weight and pay attention to keeping your chest up so the bar path is straight down
Good luck on the next one
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5 mins rest between sets for squats - I time myself on my phone because I go on here between sets (if I'm not lying on my bed recovering LOL) and don't want to get carried away. other lifts its 3 minutes because I recover from them more quickly
not had so much sleep this week, due to a more busy than usual work schedule last week, more than 6 hrs but I need more like 8 hrs sleep a night, been getting 6-7 hrs. nutrition has been less good due to working more hours, I actually lost 2lb this week (I'm bulking lol) but it's not clear if it's actual weight loss, because it could be a water weight loss, as the previous week was TOM plus my daughter's birthday party (i.e. more sodium than usual) so I think I just lost the 2lb water weight I gained the previous week. BUt in any case, not optimal nutrition.
okay will try one more time before deloading
<-- why doesn't this site have a thumbs up smiley? 0 -
Do you have the ability to video (even crappy phone video) and post it for a form check? Apologies in advance if I say a bunch of stuff you already know, because I've never seen you squat.
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First, I agree with Amazing123213405743whatevertherestofhisnameis. Your first description of squat technique sounds good -- you don't want your hips to come up first.
For me, whenever I get any sort of knee twinge like you describe, it's usually because my knees came too far forward. Make sure you don't break at the knees first, which ends up promoting having the knees come too far forward. You can focus on the technique aspects of breaking at the hip and knee simultaneously, keeping your body moving as a unit, etc. during the warmups, and that should help your working sets start becoming more consistent.
If your knees are caving in -- which is very likely because that's often one of the things that happens when people are squatting heavy enough to not make all reps -- try the following:
1) Before unracking the bar, have your toes only maybe 20 degrees out, but then tighten your glutes and twist as if you're trying to make your feet turn out further. You should feel torque from the ground all the way to your hips. This recruits your glutes and abductors into the squat, and the abductors will keep your knees moving out instead of caving in. (This is what is meant by the "screw your feet into the ground" cue.)
2) Still before unracking the bar, pull the front of your rib cage down a little so your upper back, though you want it tight, is not arched.
3) Give yourself a double chin., and with a tight grip on the bar externally rotate your shoulders so that your elbows are pointing down as much as possible and use your lats to pull your elbows in towards your body at the same time -- this is what people mean when they say to try to bend or break the bar across your back. You should now be feeling torque throughout both your arms and legs.
4) Then lock everything into position by tightening your abs as much as possible. As soon as you do that, if your hips and shoulders are rotated as described above and your spine is in a neutral position (including your neck!), you should feel amazingly solid and stable from shoulders to hips.
5) Keep everything tight as you unrack the bar and walk out. Don't let your glutes relax!! It's hard to get the trick of breathing into tight abs. I've always let my abdomen expand with my breath. A visualization I find helpful to breathe correctly is pumping air into a rigid tire... the pressure inside increases but the tire doesn't expand.
6) Break at the knees and the hips at the same time, and use your glutes and hamstrings to pull yourself down into the bottom position. Finish the squat like a deadlift -- hips and knees fully extended, shoulders still back and externally rotated though your posture will necessarily be different overall.
I'm still having trouble maintaining all this for more than a few reps, but getting better at it and my shoulders and knees don't complain anymore! My squat form is getting more consistent, and feels much stronger.
I cannot recommend How to Become a Supple Leopard, by Kelly Starrett, strongly enough. It really helps you understand WHY these things work, and just as importantly, why they reduce your risk of injury at the same time as they increase your performance in the lifts.0 -
I get knee pain when I haven't rolled out with a stick and foam roller and if I have knots in my muscles. If I stop and roll, then usually the pain goes away. I think the knots cause tension in my knee ligaments causing the pain.
So first, try foam rolling or using a stick to role out your leg muscles (especially surrounding your knees) before and after your workout. If you have never done this before, I will warn you now - IT HURTS! But it does help and eventually if you do it enough, it doesn't hurt any more (at least that's what I have been told).
There's lot of things that could cause you to lean forward too much on the drive up. It could be fatigue if it's only happening on the last reps. Have you though about trying a 3x5 instead of 5x5 workout for squats until you build more stamina and perfect your form?0 -
Hard to tell what the problem is without a video...
But knee problems generally arise for two reasons: they are caving in, or they are sliding forward beyond your toes at the bottom of the movement. If you re-read the squat chapter of Starting Strength, he talks about this at some length. You say you had some issues with the knees caving in, which would be the simplest explanation. A symptom that goes with the second problem is pain around the front of the hips.
I would also say that if your knees are caving in and you cannot complete 5 reps, the weight is too heavy and it might be a good idea to dial down to a working weight you can move for sets across. I certainly wouldn't go for another set with the same weight if my previous set did not go as planned.0 -
thanks for all the replies - it's definitely knees caving in, not knees going too far forward. I'm usually vigilant about that, but the last couple of workouts I haven't been... I think I need to be more thorough about stuff like that.
re video - I'll see what I can do, but my phone is an old one and won't communicate with my laptop easily and doesn't have android (so I can't put dropbox on it) so I can't get videos from it to my laptop easily. A new phone is on my list of things to buy, along with a power cage, when I have some more money (hopefully soon as I've had more work recently). I can see the necessity for a video though, so I appreciate it's difficult to make any suggestions from what I type alone.
re unracking the bar - I don't have a proper squat rack, I have to pick up the bar from the down position of the squat, with the barbell on two bedside tables, so I've already done half a squat before I start my reps. (so the numbers I put in my OP really should be 6 5 4 3, if you include the other half of the squat putting the barbell back on the bedside tables)
re arm position - I have a lot of difficulty finding a position that doesn't hurt my wrists, this video is what I'm following
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2tyOLvArw0 which goes into a lot of detail about correct elbow position. I think the issue I have with this probably comes from poor shoulder mobility (which I'm working on) as my hands/arms don't go back far enough to get my hands behind the bar for the low bar position. i have found a position that's comfortable, with just the heel of my hand resting on the bar, and the bar in the correct position (as per the video).
re torso rigidity - yeah I think I need to do that more. I've been focusing on hip drive, but it is like I have too much hip drive so my pelvis moves up before my shoulders have moved at all. I'll have to avoid that. Now I've written it it sounds really silly and like I should have figured that out already :laugh: Okay so hip drive = making the whole torso go up not just the hips. I do that for some reps but not others........... maybe it is tiredness that makes it harder to do that in some reps. So I need to be vigilant about that.
re 3x5... I've thought about it but mostly because of feeling too lazy to do 5x5, this is my first time doing stronglifts, and so far not had to deload on squats (a few stalls but no deloads as yet); the programme says to switch to 3x5 after 2 deloads on squats. I'm trying to make the most of noob gains, so not sure if it's a good idea to switch to 3x5 so early. and re stamina, the last few weeks I found it hard to fit meals and workouts in, due to my work schedule. It should be a bit easier after Ramadan, because I'm a private tutor and my main clients want classes in the late morning/early afternoon because it's Ramadan, then I have a second job marking exam papers which I have to fit in with their office hours (8:30-4pm) so I've been here there and everywhere and no chance to take a lunch break (public eating during the day in Ramadan is illegal so I've taken to eating a quick lunch while marking exam papers as that's inside the language school I do that for, i.e. in private). But at the moment good nutrition and good timing of workouts is a bit tricky. Anyway, given all that, i.e. non optimal training and meal schedule, I think it's probably premature to switch to 3x5 - better focus on meal and workout timings would probably be more useful along with a proper midday meal; seeing as I'm training in the evenings, midday meal quality is an issue.
- re starting strength - it's on my list of books to buy, I haven't read it yet, just watched all the rippetoe videos I can find on you tube and his website. Amazon kindle won't sell it to me though, because I live in the wrong geographical region, which is a stupid rule they have and I've argued with their customer service people about it before, when they actually asked me for proof of residency in the USA when I tried to order an ebook through my husband's USA shipping address (he's a USA citizen) which IMO is totally ridiculous as they'll sell me actual, physical books from the USA by shipping them, but for Starting Strength the actual book is twice the price, then there's the shipping so I'm probably going to ask my brother in the UK to buy it for me, if they'll let him do that when my kindle account is registered to an address in Bahrain.... I should start to have more money in the near future (this awkward work schedule isn't for nothing!!) so if I have to buy the actual book and get it shipped so be it....
- re foam rolling - never tried it in my life
maybe I need to look into it
LOL sorry about the long and rambling post that sounds like a whole bunch of excuses... well I'm not making excuses I'm getting on with it as best I can lol :drinker:0 -
update on yesterday's workout:
I think the form issues come from fatigue, i.e. avoiding the mini good morning thing, and also keeping the knees out. Yesterday I did 3 reps for 5 sets (140lb for the 3rd attempt), well the 5th set I managed 2 then had to drop the barbell on the floor. the mini good mornings were happening on the 3rd rep in some sets, if i'd attempted to stand up again for the 3rd rep on the 5th set it wuold have been more good morning than squat and I was too tired to do it with correct form so I dropped the barbell instead. I hope the downstairs neighbours were not alarmed.
Deloading to 125lb, i.e. -10% to work on form, in particular keeping knees out and no mini good mornings, i.e. hip drive making the whole torso move upwards. Will also review videos etc in case I've forgotten anything else.
Re my schedule - it's changed again, yesterday I had time to have a decent meal in the middle of the day and had a lot more energy on the workout (evening), so I guess that was affecting me more than I realised. In spite of that could only do 3 reps with reasonably good form so definitely I still need to deload.
Anyway scuse my long rambling posts, all your input has been very helpful :flowerforyou:0 -
update: it is a stamina/fatigue issue.
yesterday I did 124lb 5x5.... the 5th rep on the 5th set turned into a mini good morning.... it's the quadriceps muscle that's the problem, the first rep of every set was very easy, by the 3rd-4th rep I was really feeling it in the middle of the quadriceps, and this seems to be the weak point. 5th rep of 5th set form failed, although I completed the rep.
I presume I should use the same weight again next workout, even though it's a deloaded weight, until I can hit 5x5 without losing form at all. ... correct?
Should I be doing any accessory exercises, or is it too early to add in those (1st time doing stronglifts or any powerlifting style programme, although I was doing bodybuilder style routines before but doing many things wrong (split routine, no progression, too light weights, etc) so not making progress... I think I'm still getting noob gains with the stronglifts and don't count as intermediate yet)0 -
one thing I just thought of regarding quadriceps stamina... usually I do quite a bit of stair running, not as exercise in the formal sense, just running up the stairs to my apartment.... but since the weather's been extremely hot and humid (Bahrain extreme heat and 100% humidity like living in a steam room) I have been getting the lift because I'm too hot. My actual workouts are in my apartment with the a.c. on but there's no a.c. on the stairwell. Would that mean my quadriceps stamina has been reduced?0
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did the fatigue/loss of form start once the stair running stopped?
Us ladies are quad dominant and normally failure in stability comes from the hamstring0 -
Why do you think that your squat mornings happen because of quadricep weakness? It isn't the quads' job to hold up your back angle, it's the hamstrings and glutes that do it.
I've already voiced my opinion, but I'll say it again. The way to fix your squats is not to do assistance exercises, it's to do squats properly. Reduce the weight and focus on form.0 -
bumblebums is right reading through your post the last fail was on a deload so you should be able to complete 5x5 OK if not maybe the form wasn't on point every time you added weight.
Now you are focusing on your form issue, try again with the deloaded weight for 5x5 good form, if this still isn't happening you might want to deload again0 -
did the fatigue/loss of form start once the stair running stopped?
Us ladies are quad dominant and normally failure in stability comes from the hamstring
no idea re stopping stair running, I wasn't paying attention, it was just an afterthought that it may be related.
I also have no idea how I compare to other women in relation to muscular imbalances etc, but I've had an entire lifetime of being different to other women and not being the way people say I should be to be so I gave up comparing myself a long time ago. [/eeyore] :laugh: - seriously, I've always had very strong quads... I played ice hockey for many years, done lots of stair running, hill walking etc so I do find it kind of surprising that my quads would appear to be the weakest link in this lift... i'm totally open to alternative explanations, but that's what it feels like is happening.Why do you think that your squat mornings happen because of quadricep weakness? It isn't the quads' job to hold up your back angle, it's the hamstrings and glutes that do it.
because that's where I'm feeling the fatigue/strain. I don't have difficulty holding the correct back angle, my legs have difficulty with standing up when I keep the back angle correct. It's the middle of the quadriceps where the strain/fatigue hits first, and it gets worse with each rep, i.e. 1st rep is easy, 2-5th I feel this strain/difficulty in the quads, getting worse each rep, 5th rep of last set they couldn't straighten at all without me changing the back angle to compensate (i.e. legs straighten without taking the weight of the barbell, then a mini good morning to bring the back angle up to where it should be again) so what it feels like is a stamina fail in the quads.
Absolutely @ deload and focus on form, that's what I'm doing. Just any additional info is useful too.Now you are focusing on your form issue, try again with the deloaded weight for 5x5 good form, if this still isn't happening you might want to deload again
that makes sense. That's what I'll do.
and thanks everyone because typing it all out, and observing what's going on the last couple of workouts has helped me to realise what's going on, and what to focus on to correct the form. Any more suggestions welcome, (in addition to deloading and focusing on form which I'm already doing) :flowerforyou:
and sorry about the lack of videos I realise that it kind of makes it difficult when it comes to form issues.0 -
I'll have something to say about elbows and shoulders later when I've got a bit more time, but I wanted to throw this thought out there before I forget about it:
Feeling the strain in your quads first doesn't necessarily mean they're your weak point. What it does mean is that they're doing a lot of work -- and if your quads are really strong from previous athletic endeavors like ice hockey and stair running, they shouldn't be feeling it first. Without video, my best guess would be that your glutes, hamstrings, and external rotators are not fully engaged and not doing their job, leaving your quads to pick up the slack. (Also, check whether you break at the knees first, as that will tend to load your quads and knees more heavily than breaking at the hips first.)
Something you may find helpful (the videos, in particular): http://www.tabatatimes.com/squats-toes-forward-or-toes-out-2/0 -
that makes sense re feeling the strain in the quads first... I really shouldn't have weak quads...!! The first video in the article made sense, will look into this, the 2nd one I couldn't understand a word of because he speaks at about 100 words a minute including anatomical terms, in an American accent (I'm British, although I can understand American English just fine when spoken at a normal speed) - but I can move my femurs/legs all the ways he demonstrated in the video without difficulty. Not sure if that's the point or not though because I couldn't understand him lol.
I've been meaning to reply to this message all day but the kids are doing my head in and I think my squats are currently suffering from over-analysis LOL. I'm supposed to be doing another workout this evening so I'll see how it goes with that.
Re foot positioning - this is already an issue because I can't balance if my feet are too close together, and this seems to be because of having relatively short shins/long femurs, i know ankle flexibility is usually what's considered the cause of this but when i look at pics/videos of other people doing close stance, toes forward squats and pistol squats, they can balance with their shins quite upright, if my shins were at the same angle as theis, I'd fall backwards, so I don't think that this is due to ankle flexibility. Plus the fact that I can do *kitten* to grass squats just fine with a wider stance and/or toes more turned out (this limits how far the hips go back and keeps the centre of gravity over the feet instead of shifting backwards too much), the issue with that though is it's harder to keep the knees from caving inwards. There's a lot of info on other lifts about how limb proportions affects form for lifts, but very little info on this kind of thing for squats. I have no idea if this would be contributing to the issue of overuse of quads v underuse of other muscles, or if it's totally unrelated. But in terms of finding the best foot position for keeping my feet out it's proving tricky................................. then I wonder if all this is just a whole bunch of "how to kill squats with over-analysis" and I just have to use trial and error to find the best foot position...........? Which is what I'll end up doing anyway as I can't find any info about this.0 -
btw I am trying to find whether there's some way I can get a video on here, not just for squats, for all the lifts.0
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I upload mine to Youtube (private setting, LOL) and then just post the link.0
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I was thinking of doing that, i.e. private you tube channel.... but the issue is getting the video from my phone to my laptop. My phone doesn't have android and the PC interface software is totally useless and frequently fails to recognise that the phone's even connected. It's a real pain in the behind. Not just for videos but for sharing pics of my kids with the family as well.
I'm planning on buying an android phone, then I can have dropbox on my phone and just put the files in there and they'll synch with my laptop automatically. But I'm not sure how much money I have right now for buying a new phone.
In the meantime I'll see if my husband can video me on his phone, but I'm not sure if his phone has a camera or not (if it does he never uses it).0 -
Aha, I see where the caveman reference comes from - caveman technology! 0
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yeah lol... I think my phone dates back to the lower palaeolithic era and would make a better hand axe than a phone lol
(please excuse the totally inaccurate date for the stone)0 -
Bahahaha! I bought my partner that iphone3. She sold it and upgraded as soon as she could! I do like that stone though. If flat enough, it would be awesome for skipping over water! Or pummelling information into dopey students brains.0
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sad thing is the iphone 3 is quite a lot better than my phone :sad:
my phone would make a good skimming stone, now you mention it... it looks rather nice, just it doesn't have android, it has some obsolete platform that no-one makes apps for, and it refuses to communicate with my laptop. However, I shouldn't complain, it has a timer on it that's good for timing the kids' time-outs when they're naughty, and also for timing rest intervals between sets. And it's quite a good MP3 and MP4 player but for the fact it no longer communicates with my laptop so I can't upload new music or videos onto it.0 -
update: tried squats today with my feet parallel to each other. Still a wide stance, just feet parallel as opposed to turned out). In terms of quads feeling the strain and being overworked, that didn't happen today. All the lifts felt strong and solid. (bear in mind this is still the deloaded weight o 125lb)......... there are still form issues and in one set I think my form was different for every single rep. The main thing is how much my hips come up, some reps it feels like they're coming up too far. although it's not as bad as before, i.e. no mini good mornings.
going to have to find a way to video myself and get it on here....!! I definitely need all your opinions/advice, especially as to whether my knees are staying stable and not caving in. It didn't feel like they were but there's a lot of different things to focus on when doing this!!0 -
another update (this is turning into a saga...).... form is feeling a lot more solid on squats now......... I think the issue was, as was mentioned in the thread, to do with glues or something in the posterior chain not being activated properly.... what was happening before was the hip drive bit was fine but then something in the posterior chain wasn't keeping up so it was turning into a mini good morning because my pelvis ended up too high and my shoulders couldn't catch up.
Also I've decided to increase the weight in increments of 2.5lb instead of 5lb from now. Then there's not such a big jump in weight between each workout, and the idea is to keep progressing rather than keep on stalling and deloading. I skipped a couple of workouts because I've been feeling ill (dizzy spells) and didn't think it was a good idea to train, so I haven't made any progress in terms of weight on the barbell.... BUT I'm making major targets for myself in terms of consistency and sticking with the programme, which is my main issue right now!!!!!!!
On deadlifts I'm increasing the weight in 5lb increments for the same reason
Also I've decided to switch to starting strength, (mostly because I want to learn to do power cleans, but also for the info on form, etc lol).... although any spending of money (including buying the starting strength book) has to wait a bit... but the good news is that I've got another job (not to replace the current one, a small part time one I can fit around the other work I'm doing) which means I'll have more to save, so that means a) a power cage!! b) a new phone and c) more spending money generally... can't spend anything until I get paid though... but I've decided to get the actual starting strength book and DVD rather than the kindle one (long story involving geographical location and kindle refusing to sell books to me and I can't really be bothered to argue with them over it so I'll just get the actual book from Amazon when I get paid).0 -
just wanted to say, reading through this forum, learning about the experience you've been having and checking out some of the articles, videos and resources others have posted to help has been great! i've been struggling with some very similar form issues on squats (at a lower work weight than you, though) and it's nice to know i'm not alone! for me, the issues are definitely lack of hamstring/glute engagement and knee caving.
wishing you lots of luck as you switch to starting strength--and i wanted to say, i really admire you for making the best of your living situation, taking so many jobs to support your lifestyle and fitness, rigging up a squat setup at home even though it makes you work harder, finding ways around laws regarding where you can eat and when, and looking ahead to plan how to obtain the things you may need (books, power rack, new phone for videos, etc) to continue making progress. you inspire me! 0 -
thanks for reading all of it! glad you found it useful... the replies in this thread are all great and have been very useful, thank you again to all of you!
I should have more money coming in and less going out over the next year or so, so things should be more straight forward in the future... although more work = harder time management.... but it's only 3 workouts a week so not really that much to find time for...0
