Increase Reps for Better Gains?

shellfly

I recently read this artilcle: http://jasonferruggia.com/how-to-get-a-body-like-jessica-biel/, and one thing he said that's stuck with me was that women get better results from doing a higher rep set than males. He specifically recommends doing 8-15 reps but still within the context of lifting heavy.

I've been doing Stronglifts as prescribed with 5x5s, but I do feel like I'm not making the progress I ought to be or could be. Initially, I went up quite quickly on most of the lifts, but discovered problems with my form and then kind of restarted. I also had some injuries to work through. Since then, I've gotten back to where I was and with much better form, but I don't seem to be able to move on up. My squats have been hovering between 85-90 lbs for 3 weeks now. I have not been able to get past 55 on my bench (if I try 60, I fail on the third rep). Deadlifts have gone okay - back up to my bodyweight at 115, and I don't feel like I'm near hitting the wall yet there. Rows are at 55 - if I go to 60, I'm not able to touch the bar to my chest for all the reps. OHP has been my only area of recent progress, where I finally was able to bump from 35 to 40 (but it really irks me that I still can't press the Oly bar and no idea when I'll finally be able to).

Part of what frustrates me is that by contrast, since working my way through Scooby's pull-up program, I've been able to go from not being able to do a chin-up to now being able to do 3 or 4 in a row - I feel like I know I've gotten stronger there, and I'm seeing the results. I'm not saying I haven't seen any results from SL, but it just seems so very, very slow.

So down to my question, what do you all think of his recommendation to do more reps? Has anyone tried it with SL? I think if I wanted to do 8-15 reps with squats, I would have to deload, as I am usually struggling to get the full 5 done by the third or fourth set - it would probably be the same with most of the other lifts too, but might it be worth it in the end?

bumblebums

How tall are you, and how much are you eating currently?

Leadfoot_Lewis

^Agree, what's your diet like? Are you eating enough? Getting enough sleep? Resting long enough between working sets? There are many factors that will effect how well your body adapts to a workout program.

The reason programs like Stronglifts, Starting Strength, etc. are 5 or less reps is because if you're really lifting heavy that's pretty much all the reps you're going to be able to do! If I can lift a weight 15 times, is it really that heavy for me? These programs are designed for STRENGTH - in short lift heavy, tear down muscles, muscles heal by getting stronger, boom - more weight on the bar/more strength gained. Unfortunately, we all plateau and at that point you deload usually 10% or so with the same rep count and work your way back up. Deloading and adding a ton of reps (which is going to force you to deload even more weight) may work for hypertrophy but not as well for strength training, which again, is the goal of these programs.

So I guess you need to decide what your goal is and adjust your training program accordingly. There's great programs such as PHAT that incorporate both Strength and Hypertrophy training. Perhaps something like that may work better for you.

Barbellgirl

I'm glad you asked this question because I'm wondering the same thing. I'm doing the Starting Strength program not the SLs and noticing the same issues with squats and bench press. I'm seriously considering modifying those trouble lifts to more of an AllPros style where you lift the same weight but increase the reps. It requires small strength gains to be able to do that, and I think that's better than just lifting the same weight for the same number of reps each time.

I'm on my third week of Starting Strength and I'm going to stick with it a few more weeks, but I'm seriously considering switching over to AllPros. I read that same article and AllPros starts at 8 reps working up to 12 with the same weight, then increasing the weight and dropping the reps back down. It seems to be a well rounded hypertrophy/strength program and more in line with the reps that author recommends for women (8-15).

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&page=1

AbbeyDove

I wonder if it might do more in terms of gaining strength if you work to fail, knowing your won't hit your full number of reps. That is, add weight, go to the number of reps you can do with proper form, realizing that you won't get as many reps total. I know that's kind of the opposite of your OP proposition, but I wonder if it might help more with growing strength over time than doing more reps of the same weight. This would be similar to the approach in Lenora428's response, but might end up with even fewer than 8 reps. Personally, I'm stuck at 45lbs on my bench press. I can't seem to even do 1 rep at 50.

bumblebums

Okay, a couple of thoughts.

The reason 5 is the oft-repeated number is that this is the number of reps one can do with a heavy weight while maintaining reasonably decent form. The novice progression should focus on two things: learning proper form, and taking advantage of newbie gains. I am of the opinion that form trumps gains. The reason is that at my advanced age I have sustained too many sports injuries to trifle with that. I would rather take a bit longer to increase the weight, and deload repeatedly if necessary, than let hubris get the better of me and get myself to a point where I am unable to train at all.

Powerlifting (that's the squat, deadlift, bench sport) and weightlifting (that's the Olympic snatch/clean and jerk sport) are competitive enterprises. You want to lift the heaviest amount you can, more than any of the others. What most of us are doing at the gym is not a competitive sport. This is the reason why I have never posted in the check in and chat threads--I do not want to become competitive myself or instigate competitiveness in others by posting numbers. Why? Well, part of the reason is what I said above--hubris can lead to injury. The other reason is that it is impossible to compare your numbers to someone else's.

And now we get to my final point. Your lifting potential and speed of gains depend on many things.

* Genetic endowment. Like it or not, some people are born with more fast twitch fibers than others. This is what makes some people better at jumping, sprinting, and weights and others much better at running marathons or riding bikes long distance. Hard work will make up for suboptimal genetics, but your potential will never be as good as that of someone who is naturally gifted.

* Eating. The more you eat, the better your gains, all other things being equal. If you are on a restricted intake, you cannot compare your lifts to those of someone eating at maintenance or a surplus. The nature of what you are eating matters, too (a big protein intake is a must if you are trying to build muscle).

* Age. As you get older, your ability to gain muscle mass as opposed to fat gets worse. Something else that changes is your ability to recover from injury--and this includes big catastrophic injuries and the microinjuries that lead to strength adaptations overtime as your body repairs them. These changes affect both men and women--your muscle mass peaks some time around your early 30s, if I recall correctly, and declines gradually after that. But the changes in women's endocrine systems around menopause are quite dramatic and affect both your lean body mass and all sorts of other parts of the system.

* Sex. Duh. Most men are stronger than most women. The reason is testosterone, largely, and upper body strength is most affected because women have very few testosterone receptors in their upper bodies compared to men. This is why most women don't get really muscular without some special hormone help--but again, there is some variation, and some women have more testosterone than others.

* Height. This is simple physics--if you are tall, you are working with disadvantageous mechanics. You have to make the weight go a farther distance, whether it's in a deadlift, squat, or bench press, than a short person. And you are using longer levers with proportionally less muscle mass (in most tall people's case, anyway).

* Proportions. The ideal bodybuilder would have gorilla-like proportions: long torso, short legs, long arms, and big hands to allow you to grip the bar. The ideal squatter would be more normally proportioned, but long legs tend to be a disadvantage. For benching, broad shoulders and short arms are good. For power cleans, your forearms better not be longer than your humeri. For chin-ups and pull-ups, broad shoulders and relatively short arms and big hands would be great, and ideally, you're not too tall or too bottom-heavy so you're not pulling up as much weight. Etc., etc.

Lean Muscle Mass. The more, the better. Someone who has 20% bf at 150 lb will probably lift more than someone who is 40% bf at the same weight, all other things being equal. This is why strength sports are weight class sports--heavier people have an advantage.

Okay, you see now why it is hard to look at someone's lift numbers in isolation, without knowing more about them, and say whether their numbers are "good" or not? Don't play those games. Work on improving your form, enjoy the process, and don't compare yourself to others. Not unless you have reason to believe that you should take things to the next level--in which case, what are you doing in a beginner strength program group?

PitBullMom_Liz

Bumble, every time you post I learn something!

Barbellgirl

Thanks BB. I do think a few of those are factors for me. I'm a woman for one, and I'm older 46. Starting one of the beginning strength programs at my age is definitely going to take a little more patience. I also agree the recovery time may actually need to be longer but when you do a full body strength gain program three days a week there's not a lot of flexibility there.

I also agree that firm is more important than gains. Although my squat has been at 85 lbs my last three sessions, I notice I'm more stable, have better form, and more power coming from the bottom position than I did last week. I also increased my reps to 6 instead of 5. I know that means I'm not doing the program correctly and Mark Rippetoe would frown at me, but my hip flexors have also been bothering me the last two weeks and I'd rather stay where I am on the weight than get injured.

This slight rep increase approach seems to work for me and I'm going to stick with it. I did it both on my squat on bench press today, and next Monday I'll hopefully be in a position to increase the weight. I may have to look into finding some sort of 1 lb. plate, the smallest I've seen and have myself is 2.5 lbs. Luckily, I'm making good gains on my dead lift though.

BB one question I have for you has to do with something I read when researching that PHAT program. I ran across a statement that basically said new strength lifters do sometimes run into an issue with strength gains when they don't have the muscle mass to support more strength, suggesting mixing strength with hypertrophy sessions which neither SLs or SS do. What are your thoughts? Of course I know you have to eat at a surplus, get lots of rest and protein, but do you think the lack of hypertrophy training hurts the gains people can make using these programs?

bumblebums

Thanks BB. I do think a few of those are factors for me. I'm a woman for one, and I'm older 46. Starting one of the beginning strength programs at my age is definitely going to take a little more patience. I also agree the recovery time may actually need to be longer but when you do a full body strength gain program three days a week there's not a lot of flexibility there.

I also agree that firm is more important than gains. Although my squat has been at 85 lbs my last three sessions, I notice I'm more stable, have better form, and more power coming from the bottom position than I did last week. I also increased my reps to 6 instead of 5. I know that means I'm not doing the program correctly and Mark Rippetoe would frown at me, but my hip flexors have also been bothering me the last two weeks and I'd rather stay where I am on the weight than get injured.

This slight rep increase approach seems to work for me and I'm going to stick with it. I did it both on my squat on bench press today, and next Monday I'll hopefully be in a position to increase the weight. I may have to look into finding some sort of 1 lb. plate, the smallest I've seen and have myself is 2.5 lbs. Luckily, I'm making good gains on my dead lift though.

BB one question I have for you has to do with something I read when researching that PHAT program. I ran across a statement that basically said new strength lifters do sometimes run into an issue with strength gains when they don't have the muscle mass to support more strength, suggesting mixing strength with hypertrophy sessions which neither SLs or SS do. What are your thoughts? Of course I know you have to eat at a surplus, get lots of rest and protein, but do you think the lack of hypertrophy training hurts the gains people can make using these programs?

Well first of all, the number of reps is not set in stone--if you want to work with higher reps, work with higher reps. Part of the reason for SL 5x5's popularity is the deceptive simplicity of it--five lifts, easy to remember rep range... Starting Strength allows for a lot more complexity, and you would never do just five sets--not if you include warm-ups. If you look at the programming chapter of SS, you will see that the sample logs include reps other than 5. Rip speaks of extremes (1 RMs, bad idea for beginners. 20 RM, an interesting endurance exercise, very testing, but not one that's good for gaining strength). You should fall somewhere between these extremes. My point was largely that it's okay to customize--in fact, essential, since the program wasn't designed for 40-something women. That's not the population either Rippetoe or Mehdi have in mind, although Rippetoe at least sometimes thinks about women trainees. But I digress.

I am not sure I can answer your question about hypertrophy--I don't know anything about that program, nor am I familiar with that line of thinking. Partly this is because I am not too interested in hypertrophy myself, I just want to hold on to my LBM and maximize my potential. But I do know that Rippetoe gets his young male bucks to grow just fine on GOMAD (gallon of milk a day, yes). And that he specifically says that this is not something either older men (30s and up) or women should attempt to do. There is IGF in milk, which seems to act as a kind of steroid on younger men, in combination with lifting. But for older men and women it just makes them fatter.

Finally, as far as periodizing volume and strength for beginners, I trust Rippetoe's experience--a simple linear progression with relatively low reps is what we do until the gains stop or peter out. The problem is that beginners sometimes assume that they are hitting a wall with gains because they are entering the intermediate stage, whereas in reality, they are working with poor form.

Which brings me to the last little thing--if your hips hurt at the quad insertion point, it could be form-related. If your knees slide forward at the bottom of the squat, your hamstrings are relaxing, and the quad tendons get yanked repeatedly. You get what Rip calls "an interesting form of tendinitis". The way to test this is to put an upright block of wood in front of your toe when you squat. You should hit it with the knees but not knock it over, and the knees should be in position in the first third of the movement down. More squats will not help, and neither will volume, until you fix this problem.

bumblebums

P.S. Sorry, I am unusually wordy today

Barbellgirl

BB thanks, and yes. GOMD would make me look like a cow and not what I'm after at all haha. My problem is that I'm not as flexible as I should be and I'm also not good about stretching and warming up beforehand. I'm working on those things now which is probably why my squats went so much better today. I just bought the book How to Become a Supple Leopard, and I hope that helps as well. I'm going to keep on plugging away, I'm determined to get stronger but with good form.

OP, I wish you the best in figuring out what works for you.

shellfly

Wow! I'm very glad I posted - there is so much good information from your replies, thank you!

To answer the initial questions, I'm 5'5" and I'm eating ~1950 calories/day. That's my calculated TDEE for maintenance, and I've been at that number and stable with my weight for several months now. As for sleep, well, it could be better; I don't always go to bed as early as I should, and I do have to get up fairly early in the morning. I probably get around 7 hours of sleep a night. I think I'm resting enough between sets - I always take at least 1 minute but usually 2 on squats.

I do understand the design by going heavy for fewer reps, it's just the "boom - more weight on the bar/more strength gained" part that doesn't seem to be happening for me.

Lenora, thanks for pointing out AllPros. It's interesting that they actually have you holding at the same weight for so long, but I can imagine that after increasing reps with it each week, you should be ready to bump up at the end. I will consider that program.

Abbey, I don't know - that's a good question that maybe someone here can answer. I haven't been deliberately trying to get to failures because some of the reading I've done suggests that it's not the way to go, but I certainly don't know from personal experience.

Bumble, thank you for the points regarding lifting potential. I do suspect that my genetic endowment is pretty minor when it comes to strength - as a kid, I could never even do a push-up or chin-up, and I've been amazed to discover that I can even do these things after putting a lot of work into it. I think I'm doing pretty well with my eating - like I said, I'm on maintenance, and I primarily eat healthy (whole fruits and veggies, lean meats and fish, dairy, etc.), and I do typically hit my protein macro. I'm 42, so I'm sure my age is a factor. As far as proportions go, I think I'm probably the average hourglass. I have more of a short torso though and longer legs. My bf % is ~19%. I'm really not worried about others' progression vs. mine, but in terms of enjoying the process, I've never liked to stagnate (in anything); it's my own lack of progress that's bugging me.

Bumble, also a very interesting squat tip - I'm always trying to improve my squat form, so I will have to check that one out!

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

There is already some great advice in this thread, but I do just want to add a couple of things....

First off, SL or SS are great beginner programs because they focus on 2 of the most important things when beginning a lifting program form (of the highest priority) as well as taking advantage of the newbie gains. It's really not abnormal to see your progress slow down as you progress with the program, but you can push through, it just takes a bit of patience and a willingness to try different things sometimes.

Secondly, there really isn't just ONE WAY that is right. Compound exercises WILL give you the most bang for your buck, but what will give your results is progression and consistency. If you feel more comfortable doing higher reps, then do it......lower your weight to a weight that you can push for 10-12 reps, push it out and then next workout increase your weight or your reps or shorten your rest time. There are 3 components that play into "progression" that we sometimes forget about.

Now if you start being tempted by craziness like 20+reps then yeah, I mean give your head a shake. That's cardio, not weight training, but really at the end of the day, the important thing is that you're doing it.....just pick up heavy *kitten*, put it down, and then do it again. And again, heavy is relative to you. And heavy for 5 reps is a lot different then heavy for 10.

lwoodroff

Bumble, at least come and chat in the chat thread! if you don't want to post your numbers that's cool, but your input would always be welcome

Also, the reason I post my numbers there is to make sure I remember what I'm doing, to see progression, and certainly not because I feel competitive with anyone apart from myself. As a 5'11"+ 37 year old woman, with long arms and legs, that wouldn't get me far anyway lol...

girlie100

Bumble pretty much nailed it as usual :happy:

I read the artical in question and he was chatting about basically losing BF to get yourself lean, SS or SL was never designed as a weight loss program, just people mix it with a deficit and see their body responding

First of all decision has to be made over what is your goal??? Strength, BF, hypertrophy etc...

If you then continue on SS or SL if you are after strength then reasons for stalling are first of all form, if you are new to lifting this has to be mastered in all lifts before any weight is added, 2nd weight increase, if your smallest weights are 2.5's buy some fractional plates and add smaller increments, 3rd point if you have been at SS or SL for a while and are stalling and deloading then try switching the program to something like 3x5 or similar intermediate strength / power lifting program.

And Iwoodroff I'm in the lanky arms and legs camp, damn you further BB travel distance! lol :sad:

inkysmurf

Bumblebums - your info is so helpful - thank you for your wordy replies to the questions asked!

I love learning whys and from someone who is doing the do'
x

bumblebums

Wow! I'm very glad I posted - there is so much good information from your replies, thank you!

To answer the initial questions, I'm 5'5" and I'm eating ~1950 calories/day. That's my calculated TDEE for maintenance, and I've been at that number and stable with my weight for several months now. As for sleep, well, it could be better; I don't always go to bed as early as I should, and I do have to get up fairly early in the morning. I probably get around 7 hours of sleep a night. I think I'm resting enough between sets - I always take at least 1 minute but usually 2 on squats.

Okay--for a 5'5" person, you are pretty light, so your gains will be limited by the low LBM (even if your bf% is low, you do not have very much LBM in absolute terms). So something you could try is increase the amount you eat, in increments of 100 kcal/week, and see if your lifts improve. A TDEE calculator will not always get things right, or usually, even. Especially for someone who is doing strength training. I would rest longer between sets--if you can do two sets but fail on a third, that could be a rest issue.

I do understand the design by going heavy for fewer reps, it's just the "boom - more weight on the bar/more strength gained" part that doesn't seem to be happening for me.

That could be for any number of reasons, as I said.

Bumble, thank you for the points regarding lifting potential. I do suspect that my genetic endowment is pretty minor when it comes to strength - as a kid, I could never even do a push-up or chin-up, and I've been amazed to discover that I can even do these things after putting a lot of work into it. I think I'm doing pretty well with my eating - like I said, I'm on maintenance, and I primarily eat healthy (whole fruits and veggies, lean meats and fish, dairy, etc.), and I do typically hit my protein macro. I'm 42, so I'm sure my age is a factor. As far as proportions go, I think I'm probably the average hourglass. I have more of a short torso though and longer legs. My bf % is ~19%. I'm really not worried about others' progression vs. mine, but in terms of enjoying the process, I've never liked to stagnate (in anything); it's my own lack of progress that's bugging me.

There are enough things going on here that are actually within your control that I wouldn't worry about genetics just yet. I would focus on fixing any form issues and eating more, and resting more between sets. If, that is, your primary goal is to increase the weight on the bar.

And, to put things in perspective, you are squatting 78% of your BW, benching 48%, and deadlifting 100 %--those are all good numbers for someone at your stage of training.

Oh, one more question. Can you describe exactly what your general warm-up looks like, and what weights you use for your warm-ups on all these lifts? The weight progression for warm-ups follows a specific formula in SS. (I confess I don't actually know what, if anything, Mehdi says on the subject). In SS, before you start your 3 working sets of 5, you are supposed to start with the bare bar on the squat, then take the current working weight and divide it by 2. Add the resulting weight to the bar, and that's your first warm-up set. Then take the working weight minus the first warm-up set, and so on. Example:

Say your working squat weight is 135.

First warm-up = 45 (bar); do as many sets and reps as you need to feel actually warm. I do one set of 10, some people do 2 to 3 sets of 5. Whatever works for you.

Second warm-up = 45+(135 - 45)/2 = 45+ 45 = 90. Do 1 set of 5 with 90. Round it down to 85 if you like.
Third warm-up = 90 + (135-90)/2 = 90+45 = 112.5. Round it up to 115 if you like. Do 1 set of 115.

If three warm-ups is enough for you, then you can start your three working sets of 135.

lwoodroff

stronglifts is 2x5 with bar alone, then progressive loading until you reach working weight. for me with squats I'm at light enough weights I do bar x 2 then add 10kg then 20kg then 25kg then 30kg then working weight (the last 2 or 3 warmups might vary depending on the working weight..)

auddii

Way late to the game on this, but I saw this post a few days ago, and was surprised that while men do well with strength gains at 5, the author of the article linked said that women do better at 8-10, and that's how he trains them. Not sure of his qualifications, but I found it interesting...

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1066594-want-a-body-like-jessica-biel

jayliospecky

This is another interesting point of view on one method of gaining strength, from Nia Shanks:

http://www.niashanks.com/2013/07/get-strong-technique-fast-strength/

bumblebums

stronglifts is 2x5 with bar alone, then progressive loading until you reach working weight. for me with squats I'm at light enough weights I do bar x 2 then add 10kg then 20kg then 25kg then 30kg then working weight (the last 2 or 3 warmups might vary depending on the working weight..)

Right--so it's similar. (In fact, I've heard it said, unkindly perhaps, that SL 5x5 is a dumbed-down, one-size-fits-all bastardized version of SS with cleans replaced by rows. This would be on the Starting Strength forum, of course).

The main point about warm-ups is that they should not be challenging. They need to be heavy enough to prime you for the more serious effort of the main working sets, but not so heavy that they rob you of all of your mojo. I think this is especially important and difficult to do for women's upper body lifts. Difficult because you need microplates to structure the progressive loading correctly.