Marathon Training and Speed Work

lporter229

This question is mainly aimed at those who have run multiple marathons (but, of course, I always appreciate the input of anyone willing to add to the discussion). Assuming you are interested in running a PR marathon, how important to you view speed work in your training? And, I guess more importantly, what type of speed work do you find most necessary?

I am training for marathon #9 and would like to break a PR I ran 4 years ago. I am following a similar type of training plan, one that I have tweaked from Matt Fitzgerald's "80/20 Running" book. The speed work sessions that he prescribes are based on heart rate zones and rely on knowing your lactate threshold heart rate. However, in order to get my HR in the required zones, I find myself running at paces faster than I feel is necessary for my training, especially given that I am 47 years old and feeling a little more battered than I was 4 years ago. In general, most of my speed work is faster than half marathon pace and the short intervals are sometimes faster than 5K pace and I am wondering if I am doing workouts that are hurting me more than helping. I do admit to sometimes pushing myself to the upper limits of the recommended zones.

Do you think that keeping all of my speed work at longer intervals no faster than half marathon pace is going to be just as effective in helping me to achieve my goal or do you think that there is a significant value in short, fast intervals for marathon training? I have also been trying to do my speed workouts on hills to try to get my HR in zone without needing to hit "all out" pace, which is where my legs tend to suffer.

7lenny7

Great question and I look forward to the answers.

I've run just one road marathon and I neglect speed work much more than I should so I'm no authority, but my understanding is that one great benefit to speed work is that it increases your running efficiency across all paces.

Running faster forces you to use a more efficient stride (so I've read) and your body learns to use that stride at other paces. A more efficient stride means less fuel consumption during the race and a faster pace for a given effort.

Recently I think I saw this first hand. My easy pace has been about 9:15, and nearly all of my runs had been at that pace. Last weekend I had a rare 5k and did fairly well, missing my PR by just 12 seconds. The next day I went out for an easy run and my pace was 8:35. I think I need to do more speed work if that's the improvement I'm going to see.

dsg2000

Oh, this is a great question and I think I'm dealing with something similar, although I'm prepping to (hopefully!) PR in a half marathon at the moment (I've run 6 marathons, though, so I've been in that boat too).

From what I've read, I think it's first a matter of defining what you mean by "speed work". Are you talking about lactate threshold runs? Or shorter, faster intervals? I think the vast majority of what I've read would say that for marathon running what's key is building up endurance through logging more miles, and secondly working on lactate threshold. Traditional speed work (short, fast intervals) would count as not very important at this distance.

However, there's also two schools about lactate threshold runs. For a few years, and a few marathon seasons, I followed the Hanson's marathon method, which had me building up endurance by increasing weekly mileage and substituted the traditional lactate threshold runs with marathon-pace runs - the point being to practice running at the pace you're going to run your marathon in. These were quite long (8-12 miles or thereabouts) and because they came without real rest days before or after it was supposed to simulate the last leg of the race, since you started the workout more tired than you would in a traditional program.

It sounds like this might be something you might want to try out at some point (e.g., runs "at marathon pace" rather than traditional lactate threshold). I know of the Matt Fitzgerald book but haven't used it myself. I spent a number of years with Hanson's and that was really the period where I feel like I got a good mileage base under me - it didn't increase my top speed (nor was it really designed to) but I could run longer at marathon/half marathon pace, and it taught me to pace myself extremely well, too, which I think is something everyone struggles with at that distance.

I've since switched to following Pete Pfitzinger's Road Racing because I felt like I'd maxed out with Hanson's and wanted to try something different. He mixes in more traditional lactate threshold and workouts with short, fast (5k pace) intervals, but I'm using it for a half marathon plan atm.

I'd be curious to hear about Fitzgerald's approach in general and also how you're finding it. I might be in the market for something new soon.

SteveTries

Only run two, so not a wealth of experience:
- Marathon one - 4hr 15. Finished it close to collapse
- Marathon two - 3hr 45. Finished with the final 5 k being the fasted

For the first one my training was lots of running, typically 6 days a week, pretty much all at the same pace, whether 5k or 30k. A smattering of intervals/hill work, but only short duration and in hindsight, negligible benefit because I wasn't committing to it.

The second one I ran a lot less, 3 days a week, but I was also cycling a couple days, swimming 1 or 2 times a week and strength twice a week. The running was all quality work, with only the very long runs (28-32kms) at purely a slow pace. Shorter long runs (if that's not an oxymoron) typically had some element in the middle of the run at different paces. The other runs were always different, and would vary by training block, but typically there'd be:
- either a hill sprint workout or a hard interval workout (e.g. 400m repeats),
- a longer duration (10k, 10mile) with some speedwork in the middle
- a long run, with some pickups in the middle.

It made a massive difference for me. I'm obviously not a quick runner, but I lined up at the start of my second marathon fitter than I've ever been and very confident.

SteveTries

sorry - an addendum to my post above, I realise I didn't explicitly answer your question:

"do you think that there is a significant value in short, fast intervals for marathon training"

100% yes! But once a week is enough in my limited experience. With a second workout of longer duration with some of those intervals being a half mara pace, some at 10k pace, some at 5k pace (and of course, for a longer interval distance).

For those workouts to be effective, you'll need to do an FTP test at the start of your training to give you a good understanding of your heart rate zones/

One workout I'd highly recommend you do about 14 days before the marathon is the following, and forgive me if this is too much/unwanted detail, but it was such an important workout for me, so I want to share:

10min warm up
Repeat the following four steps, 3 times:
1) 5min just below lactate threshold
2) 5mins at lactate threshold
3) Repeat 5 times:
3a) 20seconds flat out
3b) 40seconds recover
4) 3 minute recover
10 min cool down

I was really intimidated by that workout. Half way thru it, I just didn't see how I was possibly going to be able to go faster when the watch beeped the next time, but I did and was amazed at how much quicker I had become over the course of the previous 3-4 months. This gave me such a confidence boost for the race. I knew I was ready.

docsallen

I have only run 3 marathons and did not achieve the PR I was aiming for, so take my "knowledge" with a grain of salt. I have followed 3 different training programs - and nailed most or all of the paces in each. For me, I think the most successful - the one I used and I felt the most prepared - put more of an emphasis on the tempo run than the others. The pace of the tempo run was right around my half marathon pace. Each tempo run included a 1 mile WU and CD with a buildup from 2 to 7-8 miles at that pace. A friend of mine, who also trains people for their first marathon, told me when I first started that she thinks most of the speed intervals should be at least 800 m and that the shorter ones are not as helpful.

lporter229

Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer. It's an interesting discussion for me. I chose to follow a version of the 80/20 plan because it got me a PR in the past, but I was in a different boat then. I was less experienced at running the marathon distance (has a less solid foundation) but I was also more "durable". I think that may be why it worked well for me at the time but I am just not feeling it as much this time around. I have cut back on the overall mileage to save my legs, so I am doing a higher percentage of "quality" runs, like @SteveTries did the second time around, so it's not really an 80/20 plan I guess.

I did train using a modified Hanson plan for my 6th marathon and I actually got really good results with that. I was not targeting a PR and did not set out in that race with any particular goal but to have fun, but I finished only about 4 minutes off of my PR and with pretty big negative splits. The best part about it was that I really did enjoy the training. I like running at marathon pace, I guess. Maybe if I tried training with that type of plan again, but put a little more intention into my training and race plan, that might actually improve my results.

At any rate, I think I will cut back on my short interval runs since I have done plenty of them and focus more on longer intervals at HM pace or slightly slower. My marathon is October 13th in Chicago. I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks again for the input!

docsallen

Good luck!

SteveTries

not long now then. Good luck! Look forward to hearing how it went

lporter229

7lenny7 wrote: »

Great question and I look forward to the answers.

I've run just one road marathon and I neglect speed work much more than I should so I'm no authority, but my understanding is that one great benefit to speed work is that it increases your running efficiency across all paces.

Running faster forces you to use a more efficient stride (so I've read) and your body learns to use that stride at other paces. A more efficient stride means less fuel consumption during the race and a faster pace for a given effort.

Recently I think I saw this first hand. My easy pace has been about 9:15, and nearly all of my runs had been at that pace. Last weekend I had a rare 5k and did fairly well, missing my PR by just 12 seconds. The next day I went out for an easy run and my pace was 8:35. I think I need to do more speed work if that's the improvement I'm going to see.

Just wanted to comment on this because I definitely agree. Whenever I run at tempo pace or faster or even doing speed intervals on the track, I always find that my recovery pace is much faster than it should be, even though it doesn't feel like it based on effort. A running buddy of mine said he is the same way. I think it probably has something to do with this. Once you get into the rhythm of that stride, it kind of becomes habit.

SteveTries

7lenny7 wrote: »

Great question and I look forward to the answers.

Running faster forces you to use a more efficient stride (so I've read) and your body learns to use that stride at other paces. A more efficient stride means less fuel consumption during the race and a faster pace for a given effort.

Recently I think I saw this first hand. My easy pace has been about 9:15, and nearly all of my runs had been at that pace. Last weekend I had a rare 5k and did fairly well, missing my PR by just 12 seconds. The next day I went out for an easy run and my pace was 8:35. I think I need to do more speed work if that's the improvement I'm going to see.

I have to jump in support of this. I think there is another aspect along with efficient stride, I think there is also form. I experienced something like this just last night. The workout was:

- 10 mins warmup
- 4 mins 5k pace
- 4 X 45 secs steep hill sprint
- 10 mins half mara pace
- 2mins easy
- repeat

the first 4mins at 5k pace was a disaster. I just couldn't get to the pace and I felt like I was shuffling along. I became convinced I was tired from the bike FTP test I did the day before and was close to quitting because clearly it was a waste of time, but I stuck with it and the hill sprints had the effect of "reprogramming" my stride and pace. I rolled into the 10mins feeling stronger and actively having to slow myself down because my pace was too quick.

I think it's the act of focussing on being upright, powerful, looking ahead and pumping the arms that did it. I locked into that feeling for the rest of the workout and it was a big help.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but it was a great reminder for me.

7lenny7

@SteveTries I think you're right. It makes me think that just about any long run would benefit from a few strides or fartleks after a warm up, just to reprogram the stride and form for the rest of the run.

spiriteagle99

I've done a Pfitzinger plan (18/55) for my last two marathons (out of 5) and got PRs in both. He does a combination of speedwork - mostly long tempo runs for the first half, run at about 15k pace (supposed to be between your 10k and HM pace, with slower runners closer to 10k pace and faster runners closer to HM pace, since tempo is the pace you can maintain for an hour), then the second half he does shorter intervals (400m - 1600 m) run at 5k pace. He also includes 3 short races in the latter half. I've never done these since we don't have a lot of 8-15k races near me. Then there are strides, which are usually done every other week, that help with pure speed and form.

My understanding is that the speedwork is partly to help you work on stamina and the mental game. If you can finish 7 miles at 15k pace, that helps when you are at mile 23 and have to gut through the next few miles. Same with doing your 5th 1000 m. repeat.