Dead Legs
beeblebrox82
Posts: 578 Member
Alright, so On Saturday I ran a little half marathon at night (that was a riot) And posted a 1:40:25 time. This is my 2nd Half and it was 14 minutes faster than my first one last November.
It's the third time I ran this distance or further (I did a 25K in May) and I've had the same problem all three times: My legs turn to lead after ~10 miles.
I was on on a 7:30 pace for the first 10 miles, granted sloping slower as the race went on, but then for the last three it was brutal just to get to 8:30 miles.
Unlike my first half, I still had a ton of energy and strength in my lungs, I think all the winter running prepping for the 25K helped with that. I had a ton of steam left in me, from the waist up I felt like I could run forever. But from the waist down I was a trainwreck. IT bands, ankles, dull pain below the kneecaps, and just generally dull, slow to respond, and heavy feeling legs. Could not move them.
Is this familiar to anyone? I got passed by half a dozen people in the last two miles who were still chugging along at a 7:15 clip like it was no problem. I personally think it's a training issue, need to do more hillwork and tempo runs, my long runs for training don't really simulate this pace.... Shoot, I was as surprised as anyone to hit mile 10 at 1:15:12... but I was just curious if anyone else was familiar with these symptoms. I could taste the 1:30s! But I just couldn't get my legs to go there.
It's the third time I ran this distance or further (I did a 25K in May) and I've had the same problem all three times: My legs turn to lead after ~10 miles.
I was on on a 7:30 pace for the first 10 miles, granted sloping slower as the race went on, but then for the last three it was brutal just to get to 8:30 miles.
Unlike my first half, I still had a ton of energy and strength in my lungs, I think all the winter running prepping for the 25K helped with that. I had a ton of steam left in me, from the waist up I felt like I could run forever. But from the waist down I was a trainwreck. IT bands, ankles, dull pain below the kneecaps, and just generally dull, slow to respond, and heavy feeling legs. Could not move them.
Is this familiar to anyone? I got passed by half a dozen people in the last two miles who were still chugging along at a 7:15 clip like it was no problem. I personally think it's a training issue, need to do more hillwork and tempo runs, my long runs for training don't really simulate this pace.... Shoot, I was as surprised as anyone to hit mile 10 at 1:15:12... but I was just curious if anyone else was familiar with these symptoms. I could taste the 1:30s! But I just couldn't get my legs to go there.
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Replies
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How many rest days did you take during the week leading up to it?0
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I tapered a bit more than usual because I sprained the top of my right foot the week before I ran:
6.2 on Sunday (moderate pace)
3.1 on Tuesday (Race pace)
3.1 on Friday (real easy, just to test my foot)
Race was on Saturday.
I typically put in about 20 miles a week, three short runs during the week and a long run on the weekend. so I'm not a real heavy trainer.0 -
Hmm, sounds like a pacing issue maybe, do you know your splits for the entire race by chance?0
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sure do..... I definitely came out the gate a little quick.
6:53
7:03
7:05
7:36
7:36
7:24
7:57
7:54
7:43
7:59
8:07
8:34
8:140 -
Interesting. I get the same problem at mile 23 on marathons. I am trying McMillan's schedule this year to see if it helps any. It basically has to do with training your body to burn fat more efficiently by doing long steady state runs without carbing during the run. I go out a little farther every week, just like 5 minutes. I am out to about 85 minutes right now. I get that fatigue the last few minutes of the run but am starting to notice it a little less every slow long I do. But, since your injured, your mechanics may have changed just enough to cause some problems with efficiency..just a guess. Good luck....hope it straightens out for you.0
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What was your total weekly mileage for the 8 weeks preceding the race?
What was your long run each of the previous 8 weeks?
What is your 5K PR?0 -
What was your total weekly mileage for the 8 weeks preceding the race?
What was your long run each of the previous 8 weeks?
What is your 5K PR?
Oof lets see:
total mileage: ~110 miles
Long Runs: peaked at 12 miles the week before last, without digging through the records I was adding 2 miles each week going back to June. I had the Tough Mudder at the end of June which caused a goofy ramp up. Now that I'm ramped up I'm thinking I need to keep the weekend runs longer and not roll it so far back. The Tough Mudder (and the norovirus it gave me) definitely tore up my total mileage a bit.
5K PR is 20:49, set on 6/25. Have been running them in the low 21-22s all year.
....SO I fully acknowledge that my training for this half was not ideal... but I did a much better ramp up this spring for the 25K (~170 miles run and more consistent long runs) and had the exact same issue, which is what has me concerned. 3 points establish a trend...Granted I'm still a new runner, time is still coming off my races inn buckets.0 -
Interesting. I get the same problem at mile 23 on marathons. I am trying McMillan's schedule this year to see if it helps any. It basically has to do with training your body to burn fat more efficiently by doing long steady state runs without carbing during the run. I go out a little farther every week, just like 5 minutes. I am out to about 85 minutes right now. I get that fatigue the last few minutes of the run but am starting to notice it a little less every slow long I do. But, since your injured, your mechanics may have changed just enough to cause some problems with efficiency..just a guess. Good luck....hope it straightens out for you.
on the mechanics side, it was dark too, there were periods where I was blinded by oncoming runners with lights and had basically no depth perception, so I might have been hitting the ground harder too.0 -
I think I see where you're going actually. My first 3 miles was close to my peak 5K time... My 6mile mark would have PR'd my best 10K time by nearly five minutes. (48minutes set early this spring) I was haulin' the proverbial mail.0
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Based on your 5K time, and assuming proper training, you should be capable of a HM time of around 1:36, which is a 7:21 pace.
You clearly ran the first 3 miles way too fast and that's why you bonked later in the race. Also, with your 110 miles in 8 weeks (am I reading that correctly? ~ 13 miles a week?), you were severely under trained. You stated that your longest run was 12 miles, which means that week you should have run a total of somewhere between 36 and 48 miles (long run should be between 1/3 and 1/4 of total weekly mileage).
So, what you experienced was cause by two factors. Overly aggressive pacing and lack of appropriate fitness.
I would suggest your following a training program like Hal Higdon's before your next race and use the McMillan calculator to determine what pace you should run the race. Here are the links.
http://www.halhigdon.com/
http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm0 -
I have a hard time laying down that much mileage. I don't think I've ever run more than 25 miles in a single week, and my average is probably closer to 15. Now that my mileage is up I want to keep it there which should help get me regularly in the 25 mile range consistently through the fall, but I'm not sure how high I can go without getting injured. I've been reading and planning to adopt Brad Hudson's adaptive training methodology, in the hopes it would let me keep my mileage up while doing more focused training. He wants me to run ALOT more too, so we'll have to see how it goes, I'll start to meter it in slowly.
The long run is 1/3 your mileage... is that a Higdon thing? I did look quite a bit at his programs too, but the half marathon training programs I've used to date, the short runs never ramped up past 3 days a week 5 miles peak... all beginners programs though.
Thanks much for taking the time to share your experience by the way. This is only my 2nd full season running... I'm only just becoming aware of the wealth of science and methodology that's involved.0 -
The long run is 1/3 your mileage... is that a Higdon thing? I did look quite a bit at his programs too, but the half marathon training programs I've used to date, the short runs never ramped up past 3 days a week 5 miles peak... all beginners programs though.
I believe the first place I saw that the long run shouldn't exceed 1/3 of weekly mileage was in Daniels' Running Formula. Daniels is a Lydiard disciple, as are most distance coaches nowadays.
If you have a hard time increasing mileage without getting hurt, another running axiom is to increase either volume or intensity, but not both at the same time. So, if you are going to increase your mileage (volume), you should do so with easy running and not increase (but probably actually decrease) the intensity. So, do more easy running and less fast running as you up your mileage.
Also, through the 10% increase rule out the window. A 10% increase in mileage every week is too much and it never gives your body time to get accustomed to running the new mileage. I prefer to go up by 10% to 15% and hold there for two weeks, cut back for one week, then increase again. So, a build up from 15 to 25 might look something like this.
15
17
17
15
20
20
17
24
24
20
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I'm going to try to keep my long run mileage up while I work toward the next half on my schedule (Sept. 28th) so that I don't have to ramp up the long runs. I will focus on increasing the mileage of my shorter runs through the week to get my total volume up and work on strengthening my legs. I do a lot of other intense cross training (broomball/Insanity) which is why I think I'm getting away with the weak running volume as far as my aerobic system is concerned... but I agree that my muscular fitness in my legs is not where it should be. Once I get my weekly mileage up I can start working on the intensity. Bring on dem hills!0
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I'm going to try to keep my long run mileage up while I work toward the next half on my schedule (Sept. 28th) so that I don't have to ramp up the long runs. I will focus on increasing the mileage of my shorter runs through the week to get my total volume up and work on strengthening my legs. I do a lot of other intense cross training (broomball/Insanity) which is why I think I'm getting away with the weak running volume as far as my aerobic system is concerned... but I agree that my muscular fitness in my legs is not where it should be. Once I get my weekly mileage up I can start working on the intensity. Bring on dem hills!
Good idea. I've found that keeping the long run between 12 and 16 miles is sufficient. It's a real easy jump back to 20 for marathon training from there.0 -
Well I went and got actually fitted for new shoes for the first time. Have ~375 miles on my NB 750v1s, so I figured I was due to throw another shoe into the rotation. Ended up with a pair of Brooks Ghost 6's They feel similar to the NBs but man I Really like them alot! Little more stable and they give me a real solid purchase on the ground. Very light too for a substantial shoe. Will run with them and the NB about 70/30 for the remainder of the year and beyond. Hopefully the rotation helps keep my feet and legs little happier. 4 miles in them yesterday with no major discomfort, so initial signs are good!0
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I hope you don't mind that I cross-posted this into the Bridge to 10k group. It's so full of great information about preparing for distance runs, I thought it would be valuable for us "newbie but training for 10k and halfs" types.0
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sure do..... I definitely came out the gate a little quick.
6:53
7:03
7:05
7:36
7:36
7:24
7:57
7:54
7:43
7:59
8:07
8:34
8:14
The devil's in the details…
http://cbeinfo.net/running/images/runslowerorrunslowly.gif
That's short for "run slower or run slowly" and it's a pix of data from a Half I ran in 2011 and the same course last Sunday.
I started running on June 6, 2011 after losing 95 pounds in 7 months and after having not run since 1987 (2 miles) and 1986 (2 miles). I ran the Half on August 2011 slowly because I had a long distance motorcycle ride right after the race (https://spotwalla.com/tripViewer.php?id=367c4e4e87ed45c19)
Obviously, 13.22 miles was OK for me to run after so little training.
Fast forward to August 2013. 20 pounds lighter, almost 1,300 more miles running. All of my training data indicated that was that I was running a 2:02 Half so I was counting on race adrenaline to get me < 2 hours.
It's a tough race to pace because the course has a long 300' downhill after the start and a 300' climb at the end. I had problems the day and evening prior to the race but felt very good during training and felt good at about 2 BPM below LT, increasing my HR as cardiac drift set in.
I crashed and burned at mile 10.3
Run slower or run slowly.0 -
I hope you don't mind that I cross-posted this into the Bridge to 10k group. It's so full of great information about preparing for distance runs, I thought it would be valuable for us "newbie but training for 10k and halfs" types.
No problem!0 -
[The devil's in the details…
http://cbeinfo.net/running/images/runslowerorrunslowly.gif
That's short for "run slower or run slowly" and it's a pix of data from a Half I ran in 2011 and the same course last Sunday.
I started running on June 6, 2011 after losing 95 pounds in 7 months and after having not run since 1987 (2 miles) and 1986 (2 miles). I ran the Half on August 2011 slowly because I had a long distance motorcycle ride right after the race (https://spotwalla.com/tripViewer.php?id=367c4e4e87ed45c19)
Obviously, 13.22 miles was OK for me to run after so little training.
Fast forward to August 2013. 20 pounds lighter, almost 1,300 more miles running. All of my training data indicated that was that I was running a 2:02 Half so I was counting on race adrenaline to get me < 2 hours.
It's a tough race to pace because the course has a long 300' downhill after the start and a 300' climb at the end. I had problems the day and evening prior to the race but felt very good during training and felt good at about 2 BPM below LT, increasing my HR as cardiac drift set in.
I crashed and burned at mile 10.3
Run slower or run slowly.
Mile 3 and 4 are what got you.0 -
I just had to bump this to get it in my topics. I'm only just starting to push out to longer distances, but this is such good info that I don't want to lose track of it!0
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[The devil's in the details…
http://cbeinfo.net/running/images/runslowerorrunslowly.gif
Run slower or run slowly.
Mile 3 and 4 are what got you.
Based on what you're seeing, I would make that same argument - that's the outlier, certainly.
I've posted the course profile and you'll see that part of the course was more like a sleigh ride than a run!
http://cbeinfo.net/running/images/afcsdocourseelevation.jpg
I planned my pace this year based on my 2011 pace and then knocked off time for losing weight and then factored my LT as well as data from my speed work and my being able to do LR's at much lower HR's. I also used a pace band from R2R.com (forgotten what it stands for) and they paced those miles at 8:59 and 8:49 with mile 5 at 8:54.
I was a few seconds behind going into mile 3 due to being 10 seconds behind after miles 1 and 2. My HR was doing OK and my breathing was fine. FirstBeat Athlete shows that my HR, VO2, energy expenditure, and ventilation rate dropped on the downhill, too. (Funny that my fat % started climbing at mile 2.75 , going from about 27% up to that point and climbing so that I was burning 52% fat at mile 7, dropping to 50% at mile 12. )
To your point, I did do an 8:15 mile which, for me, is pretty fast but I felt good so I maintained that pace.
Will I do the same thing next year? No way - 9:00 will be my marathon pace this time next year! ;-)0 -
Heh, same here - didn't mean to hijack your thread.0
