How many Cycles Before

watto1980

Before you started to notice your body changing?

I am on week 3 of my first cycle and the program feels too easy. I have done another full body workout for the past 6 months which involved more exercises, for example, leg exercises changed from squats to step-ups to lunges on different days.

I shouldn't complain I guess because I do prefer to just squat 3 times a week, but I was worried it wouldn't get the results I am working for. I am eating at a small calorie deficit of approx 300 calories per week, aiming to lower my body fat to around 12%, it is currently about 20.9%. I have quite a bit of muscle under my fat but I feel I have much hard work left to do.

I was hoping within 10-15 weeks I would see good changes in my body in time for summer. Do you think this is possible with this program?

Thanks in advance for your replies

watto1980

Here's what I look like, I wonder if it is possible to lose that much fat in 10-15 weeks? I don't know I have never done a cut before.




I dunno if that image is working, I can't see it only a bunch of code lol...I have been trying for 10 minutes to get it to work

pandorakick

Here's what I look like, I wonder if it is possible to lose that much fat in 10-15 weeks? I don't know I have never done a cut before.




I dunno if that image is working, I can't see it only a bunch of code lol...I have been trying for 10 minutes to get it to work

Changed (img) to lower case for you. As for results, fat is lost through diet. The lifting is to make sure you don't lose massive amounts of muscle in the process. That said, the program is very good in getting results. What kind of results really depends on how your intake is and how long you've been lifting among other things...

watto1980

hi thanks for the reply and fixing the pic, I am a happy chap as u can see

Yeah I am eating about 300 calories under maintenance (3000 calories). I just want to look good for summer. I hope I can do it in 10-15 weeks. I have never really attempted to eat under maintenance before lol so I will just have to see how things go on the scales and in the mirror...

I just hope I have enough muscle under there to not get that scrawny look when I lose weight, u know what I mean. Just to get a good low BF% with a decent looking physique and then start working to leanly bulk up from there. Lets hope all pro's can do it for me.

jasonheyd

Short-ish answer: Yeah, you can use this routine to see some gains in 10-15 weeks, BUT... it may be more or less depending on the nature of what you were doing before. It sounds like you've been doing some lifting already, so it doesn't sound like you're going to go from flab to tight in 10-15 weeks.

I was doing some other stuff before switching to SBR, and while I've seen good gains in terms of overall strength, it hasn't been anything like you see on TV commercials for Ripped in 30, P90x, or the Buff Your Stuff workout du jour. ;-)

On a slightly more serious note, I'd personally never lean towards anything like P90x, but if you really want to trim things up then that might be right for you.

With all of that said, a few thoughts on SBR:

1. This program is very forgiving of cutting, but it WILL get harder if you're eating at a calorie deficit, especially as you progress.

2. If you start under your 10 RM for one or more exercises, either intentionally or because you underestimate what you can actually lift, then it will feel VERY easy for at least a few weeks, and quite possibly a few cycles. That's ok -- it'll catch up to you, but it might take a while depending on how far under your 10 RM you start, and for how many exercises.

3. The most common mistake people make with this routine is to underestimate how hard it's going to get. The more exercises you bring to your 10 RM, the more you're going to struggle with weeks 3, 4, and 5 of the cycles.

4. Keep in mind that this routine is intended to provide a combination of bulk and strength gains. Notice that "bulk" is the opposite of "cut"... So, if you're cutting, your bulking will be impeded (outside of newbie gains, it won't happen), and your strength gains won't come as fast. That's not to say you won't see improvement -- I can pretty much guarantee that you will -- but this isn't an overnight thing.

5. Along those lines, the routine is designed to force and in general ensure gradual but continual improvement. The medium and light days provide a built-in de-load, the fact that you only increase weight when you can meet the 5th week rep target (with good good intact), the lift-rest-lift-rest-lift-rest-rest repeat structure of the workout, and the rest period between warm-up vs. work sets are all very specific for very specific reasons.

6. Finally, this routine is more an intro to & foundation for strength training and a general strength improvement routine than it's an overall "general fitness" routine. It will get you into shape, it will get you stronger, it will get you bigger, and mixed with HIIT-style cardio it's not really lacking much of anything... But, like I said above, it's not really a "30 days to a trimmer you" routine. It's a long-term investment.

So... Rule #1, parts A, B and C: Don't mess with the routine. It'll work. Give it time. ;-)

jasonheyd

Almost forgot...

Honestly, I'm not sure how easy it would be to go from 20% to 12% BF in 10-15 weeks on ANY plan. As pandorakick said, it's going to be mostly diet, but 20 to 12% isn't typically a 10-15 week trip.

If you're 175 lbs, then your LBM is a little over 140 lbs and 12% BF would put you at 154 lbs LBM. That's a 15 lb. difference, or 1 lb. per week assuming you didn't also drop muscle, and it's almost impossible to not drop some muscle when you're cutting -- especially when you're trying to cut at the 1 lb. / week level, which is going to be a 15-20% calorie deficit.

Or maybe it's just me & I'm a wimp (quite possible), but that's a bit more hardcore than I'm willing to try. ;-)

I think you can make good progress towards your goal in 10-15 weeks, it just sounds really aggressive to me & I think another routine would be a better match for your short-term goal, possibly shifting to SBR once you're there.

watto1980

Hey Jason,

Thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed reply. It helped heaps. It might have been a bit unrealistic to think I could get to 12% in 10-15weeks, I don't even understand how much weight that would mean I have to lose, I just saw a pic of 12% BF and thought yeah that's what I want lol

Just out of curiosity, I am actually 195lbs at the moment. If I ever get to 12% what weight would I be approximately with my current LBM?

Yeah I don't really want to kill myself with P90X just for summer, I am not really that keen. I like the all pro's program, it is quite good with my schedule, doesn't feel like too much. I am being very strict on my diet, but you are right I should not expect miracles, I am keen to continue training for the long term. I guess all I can do is keep training hard and monitoring my calories and the results should come.

as you say I actually did use slightly less weight than my max 10 rep worked out at. It just felt a bit too heavy and I wanted to work on my form, so I made it a bit lighter, so next cycle will be a tough one I would say.

edit: almost forgot, that first program I did was a dumbbell only workout, it was pretty good but eventually I couldn't add any extra weight to the dumbbells I have, I was doing about 60lb each dumbbel so 120lb all up..

So hopefully I will still get some newby gains even while cutting because this is the first time I have worked with barbells.

jasonheyd

Nothing wrong with dumbbell routines! I actually use dumbbells for parts of SBR... There're pros and cons. On the pro side, it helps strengthen stabilizers and it can be good for evening things out if one arm's stronger than the other. On the con side, eventually it gets !@#$ed difficult to stage a really heavy dumbbell for a lot of exercises.

Ultimately, your end body weight's going to depend on how much muscle you pack onto your frame.

At 195 lbs, your LBM is running around 156 lbs (assuming 20% BF). If you maintained your weight, you'd be talking 172 lbs LBM, which is "exchanging" about 16 lbs of fat for 16 lbs of muscle. It's possible in a year, but still... probably aggressive.

Most studies I've seen / read lean towards 1-2 lbs. of muscle per month, for a seriously dedicated newbie (eat right, lift right, cardio right). Once you've been at it for a while, no matter how hard you work, the gains slow down some -- absent "pharmaceutical intervention" (just say no).

Here are a few related articles that you might find interesting:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki.htm

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html

http://www.builtlean.com/2010/05/04/ideal-body-weight-formula-how-to-calculate-your-ideal-weight/

I think if you continue to eat at a mild calorie deficit, stick with SBR and mix in some HIIT, you'll see some of the changes you're looking for and you'll build a solid foundation that'll keep you going & getting closer to your goal for a good while.

watto1980

Yeah good advice, I think for now I just want to try to lose body fat so I can have a better physique to begin building more muscle on. I liked the articles you posted and it was good to learn how to work out LBM. Just the first link didn't work for me.

Do you reckon in that pic I look around 20% BF? I have no idea really, I didn't use calipers, I used an online calculator where I measured my waist, neck and I think hips and something else, I can't remember, but it gave me a result of 20.9% BF.

jasonheyd

Oops... Fixed link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/maki2.htm

I'm no expert in estimating body composition by any means but yeah, I'd guess 20% or a little under based on the picture. Someone's got a thread in one of MFP's forums where, if you post a couple of pictures of yourself, they'll give you an estimate... I don't have it bookmarked though.

I guess this is probably fairly accurate... allowing for some individual variability:

watto1980

Hey Jase,

That's a good pic you posted, now when I look at that I would be happy to look like that guy at 15%, in fact more than happy.

I just noticed your scale at the bottom of your post, great work on losing 88 lbs, that is epic!

I don't think I would ever look like that 12% guy, I just couldn't imagine looking like that, I think I have a naturally solid build, I have always been like that but I don't know if it is from fat or if I'm just "big boned" lol

I weighed in today, this is my first week of calorie deficit and I lost 1.9 lbs. I have read this isn't optimal weight loss for muscle retention (0.5 - 1 lb is), however, perhaps this number will settle down a bit as the weeks progress. But at least I lost weight, I still feel strong and ready to lift heavy stuff.

cmeiron

I saw changes by the end of my first cycle, but I was cutting a little too aggressively at the time (not on purpose...the lifting just put my metabolism into overdrive!) The bf% estimation thread is a sticky in the Eat, Train, Progress group. They did mine there, and it's a great group, well worth joining!

jasonheyd

I just noticed your scale at the bottom of your post, great work on losing 88 lbs, that is epic!

Thanks.

Probably still have a bit to go, but I'm mostly at maintenance & doing more lifting / less running. We'll see how it goes.

I don't think I would ever look like that 12% guy...

Yeah, me neither. I probably missed that boat by about 10 years. ;-)

I weighed in today, this is my first week of calorie deficit and I lost 1.9 lbs. I have read this isn't optimal weight loss for muscle retention (0.5 - 1 lb is), however, perhaps this number will settle down a bit as the weeks progress.

It's not uncommon to drop a big chunk the first week or few of cutting... Water retention changes can cause all sorts of wild swings. I typically gain 1-3 lbs. the morning after my "heavy" lift day, and I'm pretty sure that's the muscle retaining water to help with repair.

The bf% estimation thread is a sticky in the Eat, Train, Progress group. They did mine there, and it's a great group, well worth joining!

Knew it was somewhere easy to find. Thanks.

Eat, Train, Progress Group: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/show/10067-eat-train-progress-

Body fat estimation thread: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/826435-bodyfat-estimation-thread

christianteach

I recently completed my first cycle and I can see changes already. I lost 7.6 lbs. and 8" during cycle 1. I still have a long way to go to get where I want to be, but I am pleased with my initial results.

ETA: Not that you care about my personal opinion, but I think the guys in both the10-12% and 15% pics look fantastic!!!

watto1980

Thanks for the words everyone and the links to that other group, I may post some pics and see what they think sometime in the future.

Good to hear a few of you seeing results after only your first cycle and a 7.5 lb loss in 5 weeks is awesome teach, I hope I can achieve a similar result. I also agree with your opinion that 15% looks good, I think that is what I will aim for, that type of body, hopefully there is enough muscle there to look as good as him, but if not I can always work on it.

I said that it was too easy this program but I started 3 weeks heavy today (sat, mon, wed I do) and I was seriously knocked up after the stiff legged deadlifts, I don't know what happened, I must have pushed myself too hard because I went all shakey and felt sick then had to lay on the ground for 6mins before I felt good enough to finish the curls and calf raises. Thanks a lot all pro you nearly took me out lol. I have had a day or two like this before with the previous program when I added extra weight but afterwards I always came back stronger. So I don't know what it is all about, could be the calorie deficit too maybe, I can sort of feel my strength diminishing slightly.

jasonheyd

A few things to watch:

1. Make sure you're resting 60 seconds between warm-up sets and 90 seconds between work sets.

2. Only do warm-up sets for the first 3 exercises. Doing more than that -- especially at a calorie deficit -- will seriously increase your gross lift load, and can easily impair progress.

3. Make sure you're getting enough sleep every night and especially the night before you lift. Your body *will* need it on this routine.

4. If you fail to reach your rep target on the first work set, don't even attempt the second, just move on to the next exercise.

5. If you fail to reach your rep targets for any week other than the 5th (the 12 rep week), don't worry about it.. Only the 5th week matters, at which point, if you fail, you just repeat the cycle starting the following week at the same weight.

6. Be sure to breath... In when staging, out with the exertion. The possible exception is overhead press, where it's pretty common to hold your breath on the push, but be ____ed sure your blow out and inhale at the top of the push. Some people can get dizzy and even black out with that exercise -- guaranteed to be bad news with a barbell over your noggin.

7. Do each push/pull with a tight core and be as nice and smooth as you can. If you're jerking or wiggling to get it done then your form is gone and you're fooling yourself, using extra mechanics and inertia to get the weight where it needs to be. Eventually that won't work and/or you'll hurt yourself.

8. Similarly, that smooth motion tends to be more slow than fast. It's not aerobics. ;-)

9. If you can't complete the week 5 work sets with good form, then you don't pass. Repeat the cycle. Doing otherwise will impede your progress and risks injury.

... and good call laying down. Don't try to work thru something like that and don't try to walk it off.

jasonheyd

ETA: Not that you care about my personal opinion, but I think the guys in both the10-12% and 15% pics look fantastic!!!

I'm sure my wife would agree with you. Unfortunately she's out of luck except for window-shopping. ;-)

christianteach

ETA: Not that you care about my personal opinion, but I think the guys in both the10-12% and 15% pics look fantastic!!!

I'm sure my wife would agree with you. Unfortunately she's out of luck except for window-shopping. ;-)

Me too! In fact, I got busted gawking at a guy with an awesome body while we were sitting by the pool on our last cruise. We laugh about it now.

sun_fish

I am currently on cycle 2, just finished week 2. I think I started seeing changes about 4 weeks in. During cycle 1 I lost 3 pounds, 1 inch from my waist, 1.5 from my hips, and 1 inch from my thighs. I was off work for 7 weeks (I'm a teacher) and when I went back to work everyone noticed that I had lost weight but couldn't believe it was only 3 pounds. I would be very surprised if you didn't see changes in your time frame.

watto1980

Thanks for all those tips Jason, they were good. I was doing the warm-up sets for the first 4 exercises. I must have found a modified version of the workout. I know I need to work on slowing down the movements and keeping consistent with my movements as well as breathing because I know I lost a bit of form to hit the rep range yesterday, especially on the bicep curls. I feel like I have failed if I don't hit the rep range, so I push really hard, maybe too hard on this occasion.

If I don't pass ALL of the exercises on week 5 - 12 reps it shouldn't matter that much because I am cutting, plus another positive is that it should extend the program out further for me because I would like it to last for at least a year. Once I am at a BF% I am happy with then I can began a calorie surplus and try to get some strength and muscle gains from there.

Good work karin on finishing the first cycle and getting good results. I am pretty excited by the program after what I have read on this forum, I feel like I am leaner and more ripped already but it might just be in my head lol

sun_fish

Good work karin on finishing the first cycle and getting good results. I am pretty excited by the program after what I have read on this forum, I feel like I am leaner and more ripped already but it might just be in my head lol

Thanks! I am new to resistance training, and am really loving this workout. I know what you mean about feeling leaner - I remember at the end of the first week after doing the SLDL having that feeling and wondering if it was all in my head!

jasonheyd

Thanks for all those tips Jason, they were good. I was doing the warm-up sets for the first 4 exercises. I must have found a modified version of the workout.

I think AP actually said to warm up for the 1st four in one place, and in another said that even the 4th was optional. I doubt one exercise makes a huge difference, but I've been doing the first three only since my third cycles (and my 1st cycle was more a semi-cycle that I used to zero in on my 10 RM).

pandorakick

Thanks for all those tips Jason, they were good. I was doing the warm-up sets for the first 4 exercises. I must have found a modified version of the workout.

I think AP actually said to warm up for the 1st four in one place, and in another said that even the 4th was optional. I doubt one exercise makes a huge difference, but I've been doing the first three only since my third cycles (and my 1st cycle was more a semi-cycle that I used to zero in on my 10 RM).

Initially it was indeed warmup sets for the first 4 exercises. All Pro changed that to the first 3 because so many people mentioned their OHP suffering because of it.

watto1980

Well that suits me fine, only doing warm-ups on the first 3 sets, so that's what I'll do. Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences with the program and thanks in particular to Jason for all the advice you wrote up. I will definitely stick with the program and work on improving in the areas you have discussed.

I'll hang around the forums and sometime in the future give you guys an update of my progress. I'll use that pic from a few days ago as my before photo

law1558

bump