Form check request! Squats and OHP

grandevampire

Welp! I finally got around to trying to take some videos to ask you awesome ladies for a form check.

Here are my squats from the side, front, and back. My apologies about the crotch/butt angles, I was pretty mortified when I saw the view. Hopefully they are at least useful angles for form checking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_baUxcucDf4

I did a very light weight (15 kg) on OHP so that I could do enough reps to show my form, something like 10 reps.
I see now that I do a dodge around my head, as it never even swipes my hat brim. Tiny nose, so really no excuse for that kind of bar detour. I almost think that it's the arc the axis of my upper arms creates though? Is that legitimate reasoning? It feels awkward to keep the bar close to my face when my upper arms are parallel to the ground... Or should I be compensating with some other body movement?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijf14ph-P_0

Thanks a million in advance! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

bumblebums

The squat looks quite good to me--the one problem I see is that the bar path is not quite vertical. Watch the side view, and you'll see that it dips forward in a slight J at the bottom of the movement. I think what might be lacking is hip drive--instead of thinking "lift the chest up", try lifting the butt up when you come up. It will end up moving a bit faster than your chest, so you might think you are doing a mini-good morning, but hip drive is the main thing to worry about, in my opinion. Then you can worry about keeping the chest up. The way I fixed a similar problem that I had was with the TUBOW (which I mentioned in a few other form threads), but I don't see much of a knee slide in your squats. Knees look good, and everything else is pretty solid. Maybe others will see something else to critique.

Now the OHP Take that baseball cap off! Your bar path is not at all straight, and that's because you are lifting it around the brim. You have to aim it for your nose--in fact, you might hit the nose a couple of times if you are doing it right. Also, your elbows should be a bit in front of the wrists at the bottom of the movement, and right now they are behind it. Heavy bars like to move in straight lines, and if you hold the bar the way you are currently holding it, it is positioned to move forward of your face, not straight up.

grandevampire

The squat looks quite good to me--the one problem I see is that the bar path is not quite vertical. Watch the side view, and you'll see that it dips forward in a slight J at the bottom of the movement. I think what might be lacking is hip drive--instead of thinking "lift the chest up", try lifting the butt up when you come up. It will end up moving a bit faster than your chest, so you might think you are doing a mini-good morning, but hip drive is the main thing to worry about, in my opinion. Then you can worry about keeping the chest up. The way I fixed a similar problem that I had was with the TUBOW (which I mentioned in a few other form threads), but I don't see much of a knee slide in your squats. Knees look good, and everything else is pretty solid. Maybe others will see something else to critique.

Oh boy, you're good! Thanks for the comments.

So I rechecked a form video by Johnnie Candito to see how he gets the straight line all the way down at the bottom, and I compared screen caps of his squat and mine at the lowest point. There were some obvious differences (besides the 3x+ weight he's squatting)...



1) His TUBOW is stable and in tact, mine (or my knee) would be utterly demolished.
2) His hip angle is smaller compared to his knee angle, and his upper body is more horizontal (this would likely be the mini-good morning you were talking about)
3) His lower leg stays more vertical throughout (hence untouched TUBOW)

So I guess I need to shove everything back for the lower body, and get my chest further down between my knees. Hopefully those together would get rid of the "J".

bumblebums

The squat looks quite good to me--the one problem I see is that the bar path is not quite vertical. Watch the side view, and you'll see that it dips forward in a slight J at the bottom of the movement. I think what might be lacking is hip drive--instead of thinking "lift the chest up", try lifting the butt up when you come up. It will end up moving a bit faster than your chest, so you might think you are doing a mini-good morning, but hip drive is the main thing to worry about, in my opinion. Then you can worry about keeping the chest up. The way I fixed a similar problem that I had was with the TUBOW (which I mentioned in a few other form threads), but I don't see much of a knee slide in your squats. Knees look good, and everything else is pretty solid. Maybe others will see something else to critique.

Oh boy, you're good! Thanks for the comments.

So I rechecked a form video by Johnnie Candito to see how he gets the straight line all the way down at the bottom, and I compared screen caps of his squat and mine at the lowest point. There were some obvious differences (besides the 3x+ weight he's squatting)...



1) His TUBOW is stable and in tact, mine (or my knee) would be utterly demolished.
2) His hip angle is smaller compared to his knee angle, and his upper body is more horizontal (this would likely be the mini-good morning you were talking about)
3) His lower leg stays more vertical throughout (hence untouched TUBOW)

So I guess I need to shove everything back for the lower body, and get my chest further down between my knees. Hopefully those together would get rid of the "J".

Now THAT's analysis. I like

The exact angle of your shins and torso will depend on your anthropometry, so it might not be helpful to compare somebody else's angles to your own. But the thing to watch for is whether the knees slide past the toes, you're right. I couldn't quite see your toes in the side angle view, and it seems like you caught the knee slide on your own.

TUBOW is quite magical. I think it should be a basic prop for all low bar squatting beginners. I personally use that foam thing that people put on the bar--my gym has a cylinder that can be put up vertically that does the trick perfectly. Until I found it, I carried two foam yoga bricks in my gym bag and stacked them vertically to serve as my TUBOW.

grandevampire

Now the OHP Take that baseball cap off! Your bar path is not at all straight, and that's because you are lifting it around the brim. You have to aim it for your nose--in fact, you might hit the nose a couple of times if you are doing it right. Also, your elbows should be a bit in front of the wrists at the bottom of the movement, and right now they are behind it. Heavy bars like to move in straight lines, and if you hold the bar the way you are currently holding it, it is positioned to move forward of your face, not straight up.

But! But! What about my morning hair! Just kidding. I keep meaning to at least turn my hat around, but then I forget. I'll try to push my elbows forward more to angle the bar path "back" (though in fact, just vertical).

I still haven't worked out what a straight line path even feels like for all the moving parts, so maybe I'll try working on form with just a broomstick or something where I don't get all worried about getting the weight up.

grandevampire

I couldn't quite see your toes in the side angle view, and it seems like you caught the knee slide on your own.

Lol, ya, my feet aren't big enough to save me.

TUBOW is quite magical. I think it should be a basic prop for all low bar squatting beginners. I personally use that foam thing that people put on the bar--my gym has a cylinder that can be put up vertically that does the trick perfectly. Until I found it, I carried two foam yoga bricks in my gym bag and stacked them vertically to serve as my TUBOW.

I will start brainstorming on what I can use as a TUBOW!

bumblebums

Now the OHP Take that baseball cap off! Your bar path is not at all straight, and that's because you are lifting it around the brim. You have to aim it for your nose--in fact, you might hit the nose a couple of times if you are doing it right. Also, your elbows should be a bit in front of the wrists at the bottom of the movement, and right now they are behind it. Heavy bars like to move in straight lines, and if you hold the bar the way you are currently holding it, it is positioned to move forward of your face, not straight up.

But! But! What about my morning hair! Just kidding. I keep meaning to at least turn my hat around, but then I forget. I'll try to push my elbows forward more to angle the bar path "back" (though in fact, just vertical).

I still haven't worked out what a straight line path even feels like for all the moving parts, so maybe I'll try working on form with just a broomstick or something where I don't get all worried about getting the weight up.

Haha, I wear a baseball cap to the gym, too. But I take it off for the press. By the time I get to pressing, my hair is nicely flattened out from being under the hat for the squat.

I didn't fully "get" the press until I saw Rippetoe demonstrate it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAiNQJ6FPc

It's worth watching all the way through, but especially for his demonstration. And by all means practice with something light to get the form right. I usually do a few unloaded hip whips before and between sets, because the movement is still not 100% natural for me.

bumblebums

I couldn't quite see your toes in the side angle view, and it seems like you caught the knee slide on your own.

Lol, ya, my feet aren't big enough to save me.

TUBOW is quite magical. I think it should be a basic prop for all low bar squatting beginners. I personally use that foam thing that people put on the bar--my gym has a cylinder that can be put up vertically that does the trick perfectly. Until I found it, I carried two foam yoga bricks in my gym bag and stacked them vertically to serve as my TUBOW.

I will start brainstorming on what I can use as a TUBOW!

There are often yoga bricks lying around the stretching areas of gyms, or you could borrow a couple from whatever room they hold classes in. I've also thought of using the rolling foam cylinder as my TUBOW, but can't say I've tried it.

grandevampire

I didn't fully "get" the press until I saw Rippetoe demonstrate it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMAiNQJ6FPc

Ohhh thanks! I tried to find this video when you mentioned it on another thread, but I only found ones with other people learning (which was helpful, but not as).

chubby_checkers

I don't have anything to add, because between the two of you, you covered a lot of good stuff. I just wanted to say that I don't think you're fully in the weight-lifting club until you knock yourself in the chin or nose during an OHP. I hit myself in the chin one time (that's all it took before I learned my lesson!) and made my teeth clack together. :laugh:

lwoodroff

IN for hip whips lol, and I'm pasting that link into the useful vids section so we can find it again can't see vids at work sorry..

bumblebums

I don't have anything to add, because between the two of you, you covered a lot of good stuff. I just wanted to say that I don't think you're fully in the weight-lifting club until you knock yourself in the chin or nose during an OHP. I hit myself in the chin one time (that's all it took before I learned my lesson!) and made my teeth clack together. :laugh:

Cleans are the worst for this. I have bruises on my collar bones from the bar landing there (some weird anthropometry), and I whacked myself in the chin with the bar a few times, too, before I realized I needed heavier weights.

grandevampire

Wait, wait, I think I take back analysis point number 2!! Rewatching Jonnie Candito (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fmrKmJMQnw), he actually verbally says the opposite, that he keeps his upper body quite upright throughout! (Which totally makes sense if avoiding the bar travelling forwards at the bottom.)

So basically ignore what I said above about angles, that could just be his body mechanics (he's "stout"). The more important take away is the TUBOW idea, which I need to put into practice ASAP.

bumblebums

Hmm. Well, he is not teaching the low bar technique that I am familiar with, that is, the technique described in Starting Strength. He isn't really using hip drive in his squat, either--his squat looks more like a high bar squat done with the bar slightly lower than it should be. Look at his hands--he is even holding the bar as in a high bar squat, with his thumbs opposite his fingers. (He also has that video about Rippetoe's low bar technique that shows him to be somewhat dim--he does not seem to have read the book, and he does not understand anatomy. "Flex your glutes"? Glutes don't flex, dude, they contract. Joints flex. But I digress.) Anyway, you would have to choose whether you want to follow his advice or what I am saying, because we are going to contradict each other.

lwoodroff

Fight!Fight!Fight!

lol.. sorry..

bumblebums

I am just explaining why the advice would be contradictory, in case anyone is confused. There is more than one right way to do things, but you have to pick something consistent, and you're not going to find consistency if you try to listen to this guy and to me at the same time.

grandevampire

In general, I try not to take any single source of advice. Having more than one point of reference helps to know whether there are better points of view.

In this case, I don't watch his stuff regularly, and I have seen many other videos, so I was using it more as a practical demonstration of how to get the bar to go straight. Without a doubt, he has successfully developed his squats, so there should be something to be learned. In any case, the points about going below parallel, not letting the knees travel over the toes, and not butt winking seem to be almost universally accepted amongst people who care about technique. So that is what I will retain!

lwoodroff

My mum says "chew the grapes and spit out the pips" :-)