Replacement for SLDL or improve form?

MyIdaho54

Hi I'm a newbie to the All pro lifting routine. I'm third week into my first round. Frankly, I'm very frustrated with the SLDL. I've watched tons of videos and seem to get considerable variation in recommended form. Many say it's great for glutes and hams but to me, it less effect than using a salt shaker... I feel nothing in my hamstrings. To me, leg curls are much effective! Okay, as I said, I am a newbie so I'm probably using bad SLDL form as feel the weight of the barbell in my shoulders and lower back. Any thoughts on what I am doing wrong to feel no stress in my glutes and hamstrings? One site suggested standing with the front of your foot on a weight and toes in the air (ie not resting on plate). Is that a good trick to use? Should I switch to dumbbells? Any good training videos on this exercise that you recommend?

watto1980

I do Romanian Deadlifts instead of SLDL. I got my form down pretty good after a few cycles and mainly learnt from the video below.

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/exercises/stiff-leg-deadlift-aka-romanian-deadlift.html

To be honest I didn't even realise there was a difference between SLDL and RDL till about a month ago. I am glad I chose the RDL technique because it seems to put less stress on the lower back and I like being able to bend my knees a little.

edit: Also check out the written tips and instructions under the video, it has some good stuff that might help!

jimmmer

I always do RDL too. Hinge at the hips, stick your *kitten* backwards keeping your lower back flat.

Don't go so low that your lower back starts to round.

On the way back up, fully engage your glutes and perform a dynamic hip thrust type of movement (almist as if you're humping the bar.)

Rinse. Repeat.

Make sure you take a breath in and brace your abdominal girdle before the movement to protect your lower back through the movement.

You'll feel it mostly in your hammies and glutes. You may also feel like your abs got a good workout and you may feel it in your spinal erecters (these rapidly become strong, so this goes away)

MyIdaho54

Thanks for the tips! Weird that I can't get stretch on the hamstrings though... I am a recovering couch potato and lack overall flexibility. For example when I first started the all pro routine, I was very uncomfortable doing a bodyweight squat much less with a bar on my shoulders. I have worked on flexibility and now I do my warmups with BW squats and work squats are goblet squats with a 25 lb dumb bell. I'm obviously still building toward to a conventional back squat.

Poor flexibility and a very weak core are my two main issues and I think for now I'm just going to drop DL's and add flexibility exercises as a replacement. Obviously not optimal but DL's are only adding frustration to my workout.

jasonheyd

Not sure if it'll help at all, but here's an earlier thread on SLDL: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1085125-sldl-much-confusion

A lot of folks do sub in the RDL, but they're definitely different exercises.

You can practice SLDL form by doing toe-touches. If you can really keep your lower back arched and your legs straight while touching your toes, then yeah -- SLDL is going to be a strange exercise to work your way into, in part because you're probably going to have to pull heavier weight to get the benefit, and chances are good the rest of your body's not ready for that.

Another point of confusion is the curving of the upper back. From everything I've been able to gather, that's not so much an issue -- it's the lower back that you want to keep inversely arched rather than rounded. Rounding the lower back is a recipe for disaster, end of story.

So, if you can't touch your toes while maintaining correct SLDL form (basically, inversely arched lower back with legs straight or very slightly bent -- just enough to avoid "locking" the knees) then chances are you're not hitting the correct SLDL form. Chances are good you're rounding the lower back, but the best way to check is to have someone watch your form or take a video of yourself.

Finally, keep in mind that the SLDL is a compound exercise. If your hamstrings are relatively better conditioned (relative to other muscles in the chain), or if you have less flexibility elsewhere along the chain, then you may not "feel" it in the hams... but you should feel it somewhere, again, unless you can really touch your toes with knees straight & lower back inversely arched.

With that in mind, you definitely want to focus on form... Keep the entire chain firmed up when you perform the lift. Abs tight, back inversely arched, feet pinned into the ground, relatively slow movement both down and back up.

jimmmer

Thanks for the tips! Weird that I can't get stretch on the hamstrings though... I am a recovering couch potato and lack overall flexibility. For example when I first started the all pro routine, I was very uncomfortable doing a bodyweight squat much less with a bar on my shoulders. I have worked on flexibility and now I do my warmups with BW squats and work squats are goblet squats with a 25 lb dumb bell. I'm obviously still building toward to a conventional back squat.

Poor flexibility and a very weak core are my two main issues and I think for now I'm just going to drop DL's and add flexibility exercises as a replacement. Obviously not optimal but DL's are only adding frustration to my workout.

I wouldn't drop the DL altogether because there's important posterior chain stuff going on. If you goblet squat (as you do currently) or go on to high-bar back squat (when you get there) you'll be squatting with more of a quad focus. So you need to work on the hams, glutes and lower back to prevent imbalances.

You mention the goblet squat with the dumbbell. Have you looked into substituting something like the single-leg contralateral deadlift for the SLDL/RDL? You'll get a posterior chain focus, strengthen your hammies, glutes and lower back and build something that will handle a barbell RDL with ease (well, not too much ease) - not to mention challenge your balance and core strength.

Here's a quick vid and explanation:

http://www.coreperformance.com/knowledge/movements/romanian-deadlift-1-arm-1-leg-contralateral.html

something to think about?

MyIdaho54

jasonheyd and jimmmer,

Thanks for hanging in there! I should give you complete details. I'm a 59 yr old, 6'2" male that weighs 288 lbs. I have arthritis in both knees and some spinal stenosis in my lower lumbar vertebrae. I also knee surgery (large menicus tear in the right knee) that was not completely rehabbed. The PT told me to do a few exercises and things were fine so I stopped... I have an apple shape build with the bulk of the excess weight located in my abdomen. I also have diastatis recti which is a disorder defined by a separation of the rectus abdominis muscle into right and left halves. Crunches make the diastatis significantly worse. Thus, I have a very weak core and really don't know how to control it for specific exercises.

jason hit the nail squarely on the head, my hamstrings are not the weakest part of the posterior chain. Because I don't know how to properly control my core muscles and lack flexibility in my lower back, I am feeling the stress on my back rather than in the hamstrings. Yes, there is some tension in the hamstrings but it is not noticeable unless I feel the hamstrings with my hand... My thinking is that I need to learn how to work and control the core muscles and probably hip flexors as well (not sure if they're part of the core or not) first before attempting more DL's. I did read the long thread on SLDL and don't remember who it was but they said they were doing a combination of SLDL and RDL which gave them a less than satisfactory exercise. That is so true for me. After all the videos, I start to do the exercise and then fail because I'm not sure of the right way, there were too many conflicting statements in the videos...

jason, thank you for your very thorough answer, extremely helpful! jimmmer, thanks for the link to single-leg contralateral deadlift! Interesting, I'll give that move a try during warmups without weight. BTW, my warmup process could be greatly improved. All I do is 4 minutes of treadmill, a few light stretches, then BW squats. A more refined, applied warm up may achieve better results by adding flexibility to the lower back/rump before doing deadlifts...

Thanks for not giving up on me and providing encouragement!

Best,

Rick

jimmmer

Rick,

what you describe is a shopping-list of problems throughout your chain(s) - anterior and posterior!

First, work on the "do no harm" principle. If an exercise is aggravating an existing problem (and you're sure it's not an easily fixed form issue) then chuck it out and find a sensible substitution.

So, for the SLDL, any hip-hinge exercise that can be progressed is a sensible substitution if it is slowly strengthening your posterior chain and not regressing any of your other issues.

You'll find that squatting correctly can help correct a variety of knee related problems by strengthen the quads and the tendons that run over the front of the knee. Whether a good balance between stronger hamstrings and stronger quads can mitigate some of your knee-related issues is probably something that only more squatting with good form can really show ultimately. Again, as long as squatting is not making things worse, then it'll likely yield improvements. If you are progressing nicely with goblet squats, then I would keep doing them for the minute as they also have a strong core component. They belong to the same family of squats as barbell front squats and, done correctly, can strengthen the upper back, the core and the quads.

As for crunches - throw them away. They are not the best "core" exercise and can actually do your lower back more harm than any potential good they can do your front. A good starting point for strengthening your core is planks, if done properly with engaged glutes and tightening the "band" that runs around from your belly button to your lower back, they are a great exercise. They can be progressed to walking planks, various one handed/one legged planks, all the way up to roll outs (super challenging). If you have a chin up bar available, you can progress from planks to hanging knee raises, etc. Loads of great options. Nail a solid static plank first and then we can go from there. This work, added to the core-strengthening going on in the goblets and your chosen hip-hinge movement will add up: 5 weeks of this and you'll be surprised how far you've come.

Finally, a word about age, recovery and nutrition. One thing that takes a hit as you age is recovery. I can tell a difference between now and 5 years ago (40->35). When I was in my twenties I could (and did) train for 4-6 hours a day. If I made it through one day like that now - and that's a massive if - there wouldn't be a second day! There's a something I read recently by Martin Berkhan: "A calorie deficit is a recovery deficit" - so to train three times a week (and actually get stronger - which I assume is the goal!) then you'll need to get your nutrition on point. You will need adequate carbs, fats and proteins and likely you'll need to run a slim deficit if you wish to progress and not fall over exhausted/overtrained. So set your calorie goals to lose 1/2lb a week (at least while you get rolling) and aim to get stronger - don't try to do loads of extraneous stuff on other days for the first cycle or two, give your soft tissue time to develop and adapt along with your muscles.

pandorakick

As for crunches - throw them away. They are not the best "core" exercise and can actually do your lower back more harm than any potential good they can do your front. A good starting point for strengthening your core is planks, if done properly with engaged glutes and tightening the "band" that runs around from your belly button to your lower back, they are a great exercise. They can be progressed to walking planks, various one handed/one legged planks, all the way up to roll outs (super challenging). If you have a chin up bar available, you can progress from planks to hanging knee raises, etc. Loads of great options. Nail a solid static plank first and then we can go from there. This work, added to the core-strengthening going on in the goblets and your chosen hip-hinge movement will add up: 5 weeks of this and you'll be surprised how far you've come.

The above is all good info, but I would like your attention for the quoted bit above. Unfortunately planks can worsen diastatis recti so I wouldn't recommend it as an alternative exercise. Diastatis recti is a condition that most women who have been pregnant are familiar with. There also are exercises that can help correct it, namely the so-called tupler technique. More information on this can be found on diastasisrehab.com.

There is also a (not very active) group about it here in MFP: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/15122-diastasis-recti-support.

Hope this helps!

jimmmer

As for crunches - throw them away. They are not the best "core" exercise and can actually do your lower back more harm than any potential good they can do your front. A good starting point for strengthening your core is planks, if done properly with engaged glutes and tightening the "band" that runs around from your belly button to your lower back, they are a great exercise. They can be progressed to walking planks, various one handed/one legged planks, all the way up to roll outs (super challenging). If you have a chin up bar available, you can progress from planks to hanging knee raises, etc. Loads of great options. Nail a solid static plank first and then we can go from there. This work, added to the core-strengthening going on in the goblets and your chosen hip-hinge movement will add up: 5 weeks of this and you'll be surprised how far you've come.

The above is all good info, but I would like your attention for the quoted bit above. Unfortunately planks can worsen diastatis recti so I wouldn't recommend it as an alternative exercise. Diastatis recti is a condition that most women who have been pregnant are familiar with. There also are exercises that can help correct it, namely the so-called tupler technique. More information on this can be found on diastasisrehab.com.

There is also a (not very active) group about it here in MFP: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/15122-diastasis-recti-support.

Hope this helps!

Good catch Pandora! Sorry missed the diastatis recti....

I think planks can be done depending upon the severity of the condition? Normally you work under the supervision of a physio/etc and they can determine what exercises you can do for the core depending on the individual. Not sure how severe yours is and what exercises you were recommended when you were diagnosed? That would probably be a good starting point...

pandorakick

Personally I wouldn't do core specific exercises, but try to strengthen it by doing stuff that uses the core. Exercises that come to mind are squats, dips and chin ups / pull ups. It all heavily depends on individual factors though...

In my case, I just followed the SBR as written and as the weight went up, my core strengthened with it.

MyIdaho54

Just a quick follow-up, my GP diagnosed DR during my annual wellness exam last July. Basically just said you have DR, can't be fixed, don't do crunches or similar abdominal exercises as they make it worse... I hadn't done crunches in years so that was easy advice to follow but obviously doesn't help resolve the issue or improve core flexibility. Jimmmer brings up a good point that I should get professional advice on my very pronounced DR. I have prior experience with a PT in town, I'll give him a call and see what he (or someone else at his clinic) can do for me. Pandora, I quickly checked the tupler technique site and see they have an exercise program for men with DR. I'm going to do more research on it but looks to be a good tool. May mean setting aside part or all the all-pro training while fixing the DR and strengthening core. I'm not in a big rush to get slimmed down and buff so I'm open to all possibilities.

Thanks for the thoughtful, helpful suggestions!

pandorakick

You're welcome! :flowerforyou:

jimmmer

Ha ha!

It's what we do....

jasonheyd

Good advice from pandora and jimmmer.

May mean setting aside part or all the all-pro training while fixing the DR and strengthening core

Nothing wrong with that!

I've been back and forth with SBR and some other routines as SBR's revealed weaknesses that I want to focus on. Right now I'm starting up a TRX-style (suspension) routine to focus on core, stability & balance.

Switching it up a bit keeps it from getting boring and, more importantly, it can help make sure you get well-rounded, SAFE, and sustainable improvement.