From 3:50+ to 3:15 marathon?
PeteWhoLikesToRunAlot
Posts: 596 Member
Hey people. So I've got an OCD thing about being able to Boston qualify. I had misread the requirements and thought it was 3:25 for a male 40-44. While a 25min+ improvement is stretching it, I felt it was doable. Finally realized the BQ time for me would actually be 3:15 - a 35min+ improvement. Damn.
Assuming I start putting in the right numbers for speedwork and total weekly mileage, anyone think this is doable? I'm sure a 35min+ improvement would be easier if my previous finish was in the 4:15+ timeframe, but percentage wise, I'm looking at having to make a pace improvement of ~15%+.
Thanks
pete
Assuming I start putting in the right numbers for speedwork and total weekly mileage, anyone think this is doable? I'm sure a 35min+ improvement would be easier if my previous finish was in the 4:15+ timeframe, but percentage wise, I'm looking at having to make a pace improvement of ~15%+.
Thanks
pete
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Replies
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This is definitely doable, as long as you have multiple marathons under your belt. The key is already having the mental and physical conditioning. If you have that, you just need to use an aggressive speed plan. For example, I did a 15% improvement last year for a half marathon. That was using a Runner's World advanced training plan that was 16-weeks long. I had the base for the distance already. Now, I know marathons are a whole other ball-game. But I am almost done training for my first now (race is in 2 weeks) and I am pretty sure I will try and do speed work for my 2nd marathon later this year.
As with any dramatic increase, you need to focus on how your body feels. If you are doing speed and tempo runs, and feel good afterwards, maybe push yourself even harder the following week. The key is to keep pushing yourself to your limits until your body says, "Whoa there, let's take it easy". In which case, back it down slightly until you feel it's easy again, and back to progression. Worse-case is you qualify for the following year.0 -
Carson would wisely tell you to put in tons and tons of easy miles to build the aerobic engine.
The truth is none of know how fast we'll end up until we try.
Arbitrary time goals (sub 4, BQ, etc.) are just that, so be careful with them. I can tell you what does NOT work, going out at BQ pace and trying to hold on when you aren't in shape to do so. That will lead to a bonk every time.
Good luck!0 -
Do you want to qualify for the 2015 marathon? That would be pretty tough. You would be training hard all summer, then trying to qualify in a late-summer marathon for the September registration -- maybe the Santa Rosa?
You would have to be prepared to postpone if anything goes wrong with your training or if the race conditions weren't ideal. You wouldn't have a backup plan.
BUT if everything came together perfectly, you might have a shot. You have certainly bumped up your mileage lately and if bumped it up another bit that would help a lot. The main issue is that there are a lot of moving parts in marathon training, and if everything doesn't work out perfectly, it ain't happening.
It's not an impossible goal, though, just a damned hard one!0 -
I've only got one full under my belt. I think that works against me as well. A more doable goal might be to shave a good ~20min off the next one, and then bite off another chunk of time in a subsequent.
Or of course, I can wait until I'm 45 and the time drops by 10 mins. either way
Edited for more info: I'm not specifically looking for 2015, it's just a goal I'd like to hit in the next few years.0 -
We are in exactly the same boat, Pete, except I one age group ahead. The secret for us to get older, I think! haha! I am going to run one a year and I have a very long term view of things. I will do it, even if it takes me 15 or 20 years. At 47, I think it is pretty realistic to say that at some point in my early 50's, I'll get it done.
Having said all that, my first one is in two weeks, so I might have a different opinion after that!
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I've only got one full under my belt. I think that works against me as well. A more doable goal might be to shave a good ~20min off the next one, and then bite off another chunk of time in a subsequent.
Or of course, I can wait until I'm 45 and the time drops by 10 mins. either way
Edited for more info: I'm not specifically looking for 2015, it's just a goal I'd like to hit in the next few years.
Yeah, turning 45 helped a bunch for me. You can actually qualify when you are 44 as long as you turn 45 by the marathon date. I qualified on my third try, after about 2 years of serious training. When I started I could barely run a 9:00 mile. To give you a sense of how random it is, I've run 7 marathons since I qualified and haven't had a BQ time since (though only 3 of those races were actual attempts to qualify).0 -
Pete- you know I went from 4:09 to 3:27... From my 4:09 I needed a 34 min improvement... Did I do it? Yes. I took 41 min off. Stop acting like it's impossible when you've seen shining examples. A year ago I would have laughed at you if you said of run a 3:27.. But I had to change my mindset to "why can't i".. Pete, why can't you? Why not you? You have the raw speed to do it. I know you do. But do you want it bad?
It took me 5 times to qualify, but I did it. You will do0 -
Pete- you know I went from 4:09 to 3:27... From my 4:09 I needed a 34 min improvement... Did I do it? Yes. I took 41 min off. Stop acting like it's impossible when you've seen shining examples. A year ago I would have laughed at you if you said of run a 3:27.. But I had to change my mindset to "why can't i".. Pete, why can't you? Why not you? You have the raw speed to do it. I know you do. But do you want it bad?
It took me 5 times to qualify, but I did it. You will do0 -
I went from 3:26 for my second marathon to 3:12 a year later. Another year after that got me another 2 minutes.
I think you still have room for a pretty big improvement, but once you start getting around that 3:15 range, and especially for guys our age, the improvements come in small increments.
I think you can qualify, but a 35 minute jump to 3:15 in a year is going to require everything to line up perfectly. I'd think a two year curve is more realistic and it's going to take lots of miles. daj talks about doing lots of speedwork, but training for a HM requires you to work your LT. The marathon is all about aerobic capacity. Volume is your friend. Some tempo is obviously required, but doing 800m repeats until you puke isn't going to give you the bang you are looking for.
Victoria is right too. You can do it. You just have to put in the work. It was a bit easier for her because, well, she's young and we're not. We don't bounce back like the youngsters do. 0 -
It is all about what timeframe you are talking about. 2015 is tough because the cutoff is September; you really only have one shot. I would suggest targeting a fall marathon with dedicated training to PR that race. Once that is done you can see where you are at and adjust as necessary for a Spring 2015 race to make your BQ attempt.0
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Pete, I think your main issue is going to be staying healthy. If you can manage that, I'd say you have a good shot.0
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From my first marathon in March 2010 being a 3:55 and then dropping to 3:25 a year later. I did a lot of cross training(tri) from 2011 till early 2013 when I made the decsion to go for BQ and focused almost only on running.....I went from 3:26 in march of last year to a 3:09:50 (my BQ) in October.... take that as you will...... I did qualify but not by enough I am sure so it's back to the training board, few tri's first ...... guess that was a long way to say YES you can!!0
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My strategy is to wait until I'm 75. If I end up in a wheelchair, I'll hire Victoria to push me.0
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I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.0 -
My strategy is to wait until I'm 75. If I end up in a wheelchair, I'll hire Victoria to push me.
I'll raise some money to make sure you have a nice wheelchair.0 -
My strategy is to wait until I'm 75. If I end up in a wheelchair, I'll hire Victoria to push me.
I'll raise some money to make sure you have a nice wheelchair.
I've got this NAILED. Boston 2047!!!!0 -
It was a bit easier for her because, well, she's young and we're not. We don't bounce back like the youngsters do.
Coming from the guy who ran 92 miles last week to a youngester who is "injured"0 -
As an old guy, I know that some speed improvement is in my future. Speed shows up in my shorter runs and there is that whole aerobic capacity issue. In my age class I have to run a 3:55 in a qualifier race. That's an 1:02 under what I just ran.
But things also have to line up right and that's a judgment for race day. Although I had been clipping along for a pace of 4:21-4:30 in training, the temperature was much warmer at the start of the race than just about any day we'd had recently. And 4 hours later it was going to be in the high 70's to low 80's and we'd simply not had much of that weather to train in. There was so much of the road course that exposed you to baking in the sun on a hilly course, that the smart money (if I wasn't trying to qualify for anything or prove that I could actually run that fast) was to throttle back at the turn around point (15.7) and then comfortably cruise back in (if the three large hills on the way back could be called "cruising?").
But I'll also tell you that I didn't run so hard that I felt miserable at the end (or worse. Two people died on the course running the half-marathon just a couple of hours in front of me. If you die trying, you don't qualify for anything. It's a little like my mountain climbing; it doesn't count as "bagging a summit" if you die on the way back down). There was no wall or "survival to the end" for me. This is the terrain I train in and I made a strategic and tactical choice for this (my third) marathon. Even though there was more vertical elevation in this race than any I've run, I set a PR and felt better and had the fastest recovery from the distance than the two previous marathons I've had so far.
My running buddy, who decided to try to run a faster pace than what I had set out to do and has finished marathons with far faster times, found himself at "the wall" at mile 20 with the 800 pound gorilla stomping on him and trying to throw him through that wall. He ended up with one of his worst times and in the medical tent for feet and exhaustion issues. In the last 6 miles I was closing on him and if I knew where he was on the course, I would have had enough in the tank to overtake him before the finish. But I was enjoying myself with many of the first-timers that were running this race and who were trying to survive to the end.
In the end, I didn't look like I'd just run 26 miles. My running buddy looked like 26 miles had run over him. I won't run another marathon until fall so I won't be trying to make up for the pace I didn't run for this one. The fact that I could run the last 0.87 miles at a 7:53 pace tells you everything you need to know about how much I had left in the tank at the end (I haven't run a 5K at that pace yet and my fastest track time is 7:20 for a single mile. I did this after completing more than 25 miles on the road course).
I will, however, enter the summer training period uninjured to work on both the speed and distance. And there will be shorter races to hone parts of my training.
But, I am just an old guy, new to this whole marathon thing....0 -
I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.
We've been nothing but supportive. Training plans have bun listed and we've expressed nothing but concern. Pete can't do it because he's nothing but a giver-upper.0 -
Bottom line, racing a marathon is tricky business, there is little margin for error as going out just a little too fast usually results in a blow up (or at least a slow down at the end). Even if you line up in great shape, you still need things to go your way (good weather and feeling good that day)
This is not to be confused with surviving/completing a marathon (nothing wrong with that, I've done it plenty of times myself).
I would try take it in chunks, unless you are genetically gifted, it's going to take some experience to get that 3:15.
The magical feeling of NOT blowing up because you are running at the proper pace is awesome. Nothing better than passing runners left and right over the last 5+ miles.
Good luck!0 -
I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.
We've been nothing but supportive. Training plans have bun listed and we've expressed nothing but concern. Pete can't do it because he's nothing but a giver-upper.
Has he been fitted at a running store for the correct shoes?0 -
I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.
We've been nothing but supportive. Training plans have bun listed and we've expressed nothing but concern. Pete can't do it because he's nothing but a giver-upper.
Has he been fitted at a running store for the correct shoes?
I believe he spent ￡60 on shoes and is willing to pay no more.0 -
My first marathon in Fall 2007 @ 41 was 3:47 and I was dragging to the finish. A BQ was 3:20 in my age group at that time, so I thought I'd never make it. Next Spring was a very hot marathon (mis-80s at finish) in Rochester and I ended up over 4 hours. But I got into NYC in fall 2008 and hit 3:27. Then came another big jump to 3:17 in Buffalo in May 2009 which got me my first BQ on my 4th marathon. In Fall 2009 I ran 3:16 at Wineglass, then a 3:14 at Boston in 2010. Followed that up with a 3:12 (my current PR) at Boston in 2011. In 2012 it was 80 at the start and I was over 4 hours again. Some persistent PF and post-tibial tendonitis sidelined me from a road marathon for the next two years, but I'm healthy again and training for Mississauga in two weeks. I'm 47 and shooting for 3:20 this time (5 minutes under my 3:25 qualifying time for Boston 2015). I'm not quite as fit as I was in 2011, but not far off. I think 3:20 is manageable. If it's warm, I'll be lucky to hit 3:30. If conditions are perfect, and I don't cramp up or tear anything, I think 3:15 is even within my reach.
You can do it. The key is don't rush it. Give yourself a good six months of solid, consistent training with ample speedwork (once per week is enough, and that isn't really crucial til the last 8 weeks of your training cycle in my experience). It is definitely possible. Allow yourself at least one or two longer races (half marathons or 20Ks) leading up to your marathon, or at the very least a few longer runs of 16 to 20 miles at or under your goal marathon pace. That should give you a good barometer of where you are. If you are struggling to keep goal pace, you are not ready yet. But remember, you are generally going to run faster on race day than your training pace, even when you feel you are pushing it. The magic of the race atmosphere always helps. But you never know what you will get on race day, sweltering, or snowing. You have to be ready to change your plan at the last minute.
Good luck to you. And let us know how it goes.0 -
I don't know if anyone has said this or not, and I'm too lazy to read and find out...but if you're not going to get a coach or anything, I would look into the Hanson's training method. I've heard good things about it.0
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I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.
We've been nothing but supportive. Training plans have bun listed and we've expressed nothing but concern. Pete can't do it because he's nothing but a giver-upper.
Has he been fitted at a running store for the correct shoes?
I believe he spent ￡60 on shoes and is willing to pay no more.
That's $100, which is what every one of my pairs of running shoes cost, according to my husband.0 -
I don't understand why all the negativity in this thread. MFP is a place for support.
I have no clue if you are capable. I think for any human being, it is a high goal. I'm in your boat, except not trying to BQ. I just want an enjoyable USAF Marathon in September and an even better one in Chicago, but my PR is way slower than yours so my standards are a little easier. Plus, for what it's worth, I'd like to be a little more competitive compared to you and a bunch of my other friends in the full. I'm taking the route of volume and gradually working my way into hopefully 60-70 MPW with a few races peppered in there to keep me sharp.
We've been nothing but supportive. Training plans have bun listed and we've expressed nothing but concern. Pete can't do it because he's nothing but a giver-upper.
Has he been fitted at a running store for the correct shoes?
I believe he spent ￡60 on shoes and is willing to pay no more.
That's $100, which is what every one of my pairs of running shoes cost, according to my husband.
Damn, I've spent $30 on my last 7 pairs...but I buy them on clearance at reioutlet.com.0 -
I am LOL'ing so hard right now!0
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Well, Pete - aside from your general known status as a complete slacker who's just unwilling to put in the mileage (yeah, right!) - your 3:50 is waaayyy soft. If memory serves, that was accomplished while pushing an IV pole with an antibiotic drip for bronchitis and/or Legionnaire's. You've got no business having a 3:50 PR - which doesn't make 3:15 a given, by any means, but I don't think the starting point for this comparison is fair. Unless, of course, you're planning on otherwise hobbling yourself for your next full, too?
Now go get that BQ, damn it!!!0 -
My dh has qualified for Boston but did not get in. His 35-4o age range was 3:07 for this yr and he did a 3:08,..
With that said. He tells everyone the difference bw qualifying and not is mental. You have to learn and accept the.push past all limits.
I don't have that.. Yet.. So I back off. You also need the miles. Yes there are people out there who it all fits naturally together but for most you need to be out there running a lot and speed work and mental toughness.
You can shoot for it. Why not? Stay strong!0 -
You guys are so unsupportive.... I quit running.
True Roberta, I was getting over Bronchitis at the time. I actually was pulling a faster pace for the first 8 until I hacked up about 3 lbs of lung butter and made myself slow down. If my health were optimal, I probably should've been able to come in ~5min quicker.
Victoria has me checking out mprunning.com for a plan. I think I'm going to hit this guy up.
Thanks people, good stuff as always. You big meanies 0
