16 Minutes off HM Time??

RunnerElizabeth

I'm currently registered for a marathon on Nov. 2 but the course scares me a bit.

There is this other marathon that looks lovely that is the week before (I would dump the Nov 2 race). The problem is, you need to qualify. They accept HM times, but i would need a 1:50. My current pr from November is 2:06.

Positives: For my pr, I averaged 20 mpw for the 12 week training cycle, I'm currently averaging 40+ mpw. I can run @ an 8:23 pace at least for a little while, tested up to 5k. All of my prs are a little weak. I tend to finish races with gas left in the tank

Negatives: i don't like fast running. I tend to finish races with gas left in the tank. I'm worried this will interfere with the ultimate goal, running a marathon. And maybe my body is just not capable of running that fast for that long. Also i have a terrible time with the heat.

Unknowns: i have not run a race at race effort since the Nov HM and the Jan 5k, so i don't know what my current accurate race pace is with my increased training. I have never tried to run an HM at a specific pace before.

How far out should I plan the HM?

How would i change up my training to prepare for this? Currently i run 3 days of doubles for a total of 9-10 miles on these days at an easy pace, a 12 mile long run (i was planning on keeping it at 12 until August) and one day a week (starting this week) of either hill repeats or a tempo run (the purpose of which was to get more comfortable with hills and practice running when I'm uncomfortable).

This is mostly hypothetical.

vmclach

Why don't you just run the race you're signed up for? People often talk certain course up to be a big bad monster, but the bottom line, if you incorporate hills in your training & you are mentally prepared & race smart- you will be MORE than FINE. I train with virtually 0 hills and I did an 50k ultra with a 2000 foot climb... Going into the race, I KNEW it would be hilly, so I changed my attitude & approach to the race accordingly.

WALK up the hill if you have to? There is absolutely NO shame in that. I cannot tell you how many times I stopped to walk to every single hill at my ultra & I still maintained 9;10 pace for 31.5+ miles...

I think trying to shave 16 min off your half to run a 1:50 when you claim to hate running fast sounds like torture... You don't like running fast, so why would you force yourself to try to run 1.5+ min per mile faster in a half than you ever have?

Why not do the hilly course? Trying to PR? Well I'm 99% sure you can/will still PR on a hilly course. Plus, even if you don't, you can't PR every time. Enjoy the experience. Enjoy the course:

You don't need to find a new marathon just because you read online some comments about a hill at mile 22.

Don't be afraid or discouraged by a hill. Your plan to do this half sounds crazy. A hill at mile 22 doesn't sound crazy.

Stoshew71

Training on hills will also help you with your time in the long run. It helped me. The muscle groups you use to run hills are the same muscle groups you use to run speedwork. or so i am told.

I vote also to keep the full you are signed up for than trying to knock off a minute and half from your HM pace.

ZenInTexas

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer or discourage you so I'll just share my personal experience and you can take from it what you like. I brought my half time down from 2:08 to 1:52 in a year. However over the course of that year I ran 120-180 miles every month. I also trained for and ran a full. I also did a 50 minute 10k and a 22 minute 5k. Running a 1:52 was tough. Very tough. That is a fast pace to sustain for 13.1 miles. I would suggest a test, do a 12 or 13 mile run but run the last 6 at your goal half pace. That will give more idea than anything if you are being realistic with your goals. Good luck with whatever you decide!!

_Josee_

I got my half time down 21 minutes in 7 months. I ran that half 1 month before my full.

My first half (2:06) was ran conservatively.... It was hard at that time don't get me wrong, but I had gas left in the tank.
My second one (1:45) was raced. I couldn't have ran it 3 seconds faster; I was DONE when I crossed that finish line.

So yeah, it is possible. You are running more, and you are saying that you tend to race conservatively so you definitively have more potential there. But to be able to race that half, you will need to get more confortable with running fast. Intervals / some kind of speedwork might help you there ?!? You can't hope to race 13.1 miles at a pace you only ran for 3 miles before. I second what Jen is suggesting to test that pace out.

Good luck!

RunnerElizabeth

Ok, I get it! It's maybe not impossible for some people (Josee, really amazing!), but it's probably not realistic for me.

And i probably have no reason to freak out about the hills. I plan on adding hill training. Aside from that, my regular roundtrip run commute includes 2 miles of downhill in the morning and 2 miles of up hill in the afternoon. So i train on hills. I'm working on not searching the Internet to find what random people say about a race course.

Also I already have an HM planned 3 weeks out from the marathon I'm registered for that i was planning on running all out anyway. I've run it twice i know the course, usually it's good weather for a pr, I'd say as long as my training goes the way it's going, I'll beat the 2:06 at least without killing myself. I guess I just have to accept this is how I train. I get incrementally better over time. (Coincidentally my current pr is exactly 16 mins faster than my first race, it took a year.)

I think I'm just trying to accomplish too much in too short of a time period because I may not be able to train consistently after December when i have to retire my jogging stroller forever. Giving up my jogging stroller and running all at once is a lot to deal with. :-( But running a marathon and not having a terrible time doing it is a good goal and conceivably achievable, so that's what I should do.

Thanks for being honest!

litsy3

You don't say when you'd have to qualify by, but it would usually be reasonably far out from the race, I think? Which would make the whole thing even harder. I vote for stick with the original race and take it easy up the hill.

schmenge55

Lots of great advice already. I wtok with a guy who has all of his PRs on hilly courses. His thinking is that hills rest his quads going up and the hammies coming down. So no need to fear the hills. ????. Sounds like you are leaning towards not doing this other half. If not one thing you could do us a 3k trial (race effort) and see how far off the calculators put you from the time you'd need. Not perfect but good reference.

Samstan101

I guess it depends how hard you found the 2hr+ HM in part. I did my first Half a few weeks a go in blistering heat and ran a 2:40 and in those conditions I was glad to just finish. I did another 3 weeks later and took 15mins off that time. I have another this weekend and if the conditions are ok hope to shave another couple of mins off. But there's a big difference between running a sub 2:30 and a sub 2 I realise.

RunnerElizabeth

Thanks everyone! This is all really helpful! I'm mostly over the idea, but not 100% yet. I really want to figure out why I'm so slow so i can start correcting it. I get that this probably involves changing both my head and my training and is probably more than a 10 week project. I also get that the fact that i truly enjoy running slow is probably a pretty big barrier.

So the cutoff date for the qualifying time is October 4th. The race may sell out before then though.

For informational purposes i checked out some sub 1:50 plans and more popular sub1:45 plans (which i would use with the paces for 1:50). The thing that I found shocking is that a lot of the plans start at 30 mpw and peak at 45. 39 in 4 days has kind of become my happy, easy place. And the plans only had long runs up to 13 miles, 2 hard workouts and 2 easy days. I assume if i decide to pursue this i would have to keep my long run structure the way it is for marathon training.

So questions:
A. Is it unusual for someone running 40 mpw to be as slow as i am?
B. Is the problem just that i haven't been at this volume for enough time for my speed to work itself out? (Over the winter i was dealing with illnesses and severe asthma complications so i ran 0 or 30 mpw, averaging about 15 mpw dec-feb, things started to turn around in march).
C. Am I at a speed disadvantage because my only run over 50 minutes is my LSD (which i keep at a minimum of 1:30)?
D. Is my real speed problem the fact that I've been running for 3 years but have never done consistent speedwork for more than 5 weeks?
E. Are some people just slow no matter how they train or what their volume is?

litsy3

So questions:
A. Is it unusual for someone running 40 mpw to be as slow as i am?
B. Is the problem just that i haven't been at this volume for enough time for my speed to work itself out? (Over the winter i was dealing with illnesses and severe asthma complications so i ran 0 or 30 mpw, averaging about 15 mpw dec-feb, things started to turn around in march).
C. Am I at a speed disadvantage because my only run over 50 minutes is my LSD (which i keep at a minimum of 1:30)?
D. Is my real speed problem the fact that I've been running for 3 years but have never done consistent speedwork for more than 5 weeks?
E. Are some people just slow no matter how they train or what their volume is?

A. Maybe a little bit, yeah. But probably at least partly because it takes longer to run more slowly, so it's probably unusual for many people to devote that many hours to running, whatever pace they're doing it at.
B. Yes, probably this.
C. Possibly. If I were doing 40 mpw I'd probably do something like long run 12 miles, medium-long midweek run 8 miles.
D. Yes.
E. I prefer to think of it as a combination of aptitude (which you can't change) and training (which you can). Everyone has their level. I would be sure that you could get much faster if you structured your training based on specific targets though.

My question would be this: do you tend to run your races at the same pace that you run your training runs, i.e. a comfortable pace that you enjoy? I bet you more or less do, and that you would be able to run much faster if you were willing to push harder or take the risk of setting off faster.

ZenInTexas

So we've been friends on here for a while and I kind of know your training patterns and speeds and whatnot. As I see it you have two "issues". You have had several setbacks due to various illnesses. Everytime this happens you lose accumulated fitness, Not exactly like starting over but a setback. Can you look back where ever you are tracking your mileage and see what your trends are over the past two years? What has been the average distance over time? You said you have had a few months with only 15 MPW, I think once you are consistently training at 30+, like for a steady 6 months to a year, you will see the changes you want.

The second is that in my opinion you don't push hard enough in a race. This may be mental more than a physical challenge. You have mentioned before that during a race you will chit chat with the person you are racing with, or with random people also racing. This is not what should be happening in a race. At 5 or 10k you should be much too breathless to have any kind of conversation and in a half, not necessarily breathless, but focused and running hard. Not talking. I also can recall a few races you talked about where things started to go sideways and you "gave up" and just ran it out.

I hope this does not come across as sounding harsh. (When I read it back to myself it kind of does but that is not how I intend to sound) You are a solid runner and I think you have tons of untapped potential. And again, I am of course no expert at all. These are just my observations. :flowerforyou:

_Josee_

My question would be this: do you tend to run your races at the same pace that you run your training runs, i.e. a comfortable pace that you enjoy? I bet you more or less do, and that you would be able to run much faster if you were willing to push harder or take the risk of setting off faster.

I think this is it. Like Jen said, you like to run at a comfortable pace. This is totally okay! But if you want fast race results, you will need to be okay with running harder. Like I said previously, running a 1:45 half wasn't fun at all; I kept asking myself why I was doing it, why I needed to run that fast. I wanted to slow down by mile 2 and by mile 12 I wanted to just stop and walk. But I tuned out the discomfort and just ran. Was I happy afterwards ? HELL YES!! But was it fun? Not one bit. Are you time goals important enough for you to run that way? Only you knows the answer to that question.

Stoshew71

I think this is it. Like Jen said, you like to run at a comfortable pace. This is totally okay! But if you want fast race results, you will need to be okay with running harder. Like I said previously, running a 1:45 half wasn't fun at all; I kept asking myself why I was doing it, why I needed to run that fast. I wanted to slow down by mile 2 and by mile 12 I wanted to just stop and walk. But I tuned out the discomfort and just ran. Was I happy afterwards ? HELL YES!! But was it fun? Not one bit. Are you time goals important enough for you to run that way? Only you knows the answer to that question.

I am sitting here still wondering why on God's green earth do I do what I am doing. When the hell did this running thing happen in me? An why the hell do I get up 5 am to make my legs all sore and come home all sweaty and out of breath. I literally looked like I came in from the pouring rain every morning after my runs cause that is how much I sweat. But why do i do it? lol I apparently enjoy punishing myself. But then again, it's because I am very goal orientated. I set a goal, then I go out and do my best to achieve it. Even if it means temporary discomfort. I haven't done the full yet like Josee has, but at my half... what she describes is how I felt. I started the HM starting to breath hard by the third mile and it just progressively got worse to the point that at the end, I had nothing left in the tank. I am amazed looking back at it that i allowed myself to suffer that long. The entire week afterwards my legs were shot. And I try not to contemplate what I will be like for my first full coming up. Tho, I am told that my pace should not be as horrifying for the first 20. My marathon pace should seem easy for the first 20 miles. lol OK Stan, see if you can hold back the horses for that. But I guess that is what Jen and Josee are trying to say. If you have goals, then work hard to achieve them. If you want to enjoy the run just to run, then that is ok too. But you can't have both.