Does Life Begin at Conception?

Bahet

Have you ever seen a baby born with such a severe medical condition that it will never reach 1 month old? It will be in pain and suffering the entire time it is alive. It will never go home with its parents. I would never, ever put my child through that. You can post all the sensationalized descriptions of what happens during a 3rd trimester abortion you want but it doesn't change my mind a bit.

So, kill it before it dies on its own? I don't think anyone here is trying to change your mind. We're debating, so expressing different opinions.

Yes. I consider it more of a euthanasia, which I am in favor of, than sitting back and watching my own child suffer while waiting for some supposedly loving God to take His own sweet time ending their misery. That, IMO, is cruel and selfish. You'd let your own child suffer needlessly for months on end just to spare yourself from making a tough decision.

macpatti

Yes. I consider it more of a euthanasia, which I am in favor of, than sitting back and watching my own child suffer while waiting for some supposedly loving God to take His own sweet time ending their misery. That, IMO, is cruel and selfish. You'd let your own child suffer needlessly for months on end just to spare yourself from making a tough decision.

I would make sure the doctors were doing all they could to keep my child comfortable. What makes the decision cruel and selfish is the intention behind the actions. I could claim that it's cruel and selfish to kill your own child just because you don't want the burden of caring for it. I know people who have raised disabled, deformed children and they consider those kids a gift. It just depends on how you look at it.

poisongirl6485

Yes. I consider it more of a euthanasia, which I am in favor of, than sitting back and watching my own child suffer while waiting for some supposedly loving God to take His own sweet time ending their misery. That, IMO, is cruel and selfish. You'd let your own child suffer needlessly for months on end just to spare yourself from making a tough decision.

I would make sure the doctors were doing all they could to keep my child comfortable. What makes the decision cruel and selfish is the intention behind the actions. I could claim that it's cruel and selfish to kill your own child just because you don't want the burden of caring for it. I know people who have raised disabled, deformed children and they consider those kids a gift. It just depends on how you look at it.

I don't think that aborting a child that won't live past 1 month old to keep the child from suffering is comparable to a parent not wanting the 'burden' of caring for a disabled child. Not the same thing at all.

daffodilsoup

I would make sure the doctors were doing all they could to keep my child comfortable. What makes the decision cruel and selfish is the intention behind the actions. I could claim that it's cruel and selfish to kill your own child just because you don't want the burden of caring for it. I know people who have raised disabled, deformed children and they consider those kids a gift. It just depends on how you look at it.

Honestly, I don't think it's fair to refer to it as "selfish". I give a lot of credit to parents of disabled children - a lot - because I know myself well enough to know that it's not something I could do. Maybe it is "selfish" to see it as a burden to sign onto the role of parenting a child who is going to have to be cared for like a child at 35 years old, but truthfully that goes beyond the traditional call of duty as a parent, and I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to be ready and willing to accept that kind of responsibility.

I'm glad that the people you know view their disabled, deformed children as gifts, and that's why I do give a lot of respect to those parents, but to many people, they would be a burden. To me, they would be a burden. Even to those who view those children as gifts, that's not to say that there isn't a fair amount of stress and struggle involved too. I would not be willing to give up my own life, dreams and goals to care for a disabled child until the day I died - I just wouldn't. It doesn't make me a good or bad person, just someone who knows my own limits. Just like you said, it depends on how you look at it.

Bahet

I would make sure the doctors were doing all they could to keep my child comfortable. What makes the decision cruel and selfish is the intention behind the actions. I could claim that it's cruel and selfish to kill your own child just because you don't want the burden of caring for it. I know people who have raised disabled, deformed children and they consider those kids a gift. It just depends on how you look at it.

Honestly, I don't think it's fair to refer to it as "selfish". I give a lot of credit to parents of disabled children - a lot - because I know myself well enough to know that it's not something I could do. Maybe it is "selfish" to see it as a burden to sign onto the role of parenting a child who is going to have to be cared for like a child at 35 years old, but truthfully that goes beyond the traditional call of duty as a parent, and I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to be ready and willing to accept that kind of responsibility.

I'm glad that the people you know view their disabled, deformed children as gifts, and that's why I do give a lot of respect to those parents, but to many people, they would be a burden. To me, they would be a burden. Even to those who view those children as gifts, that's not to say that there isn't a fair amount of stress and struggle involved too. I would not be willing to give up my own life, dreams and goals to care for a disabled child until the day I died - I just wouldn't. It doesn't make me a good or bad person, just someone who knows my own limits. Just like you said, it depends on how you look at it.

For me it goes even beyond that. I would not want to live like that so why would I intentionally put my kids in a situation like that? It's compassionate, not selfish.

macpatti

For me it goes even beyond that. I would not want to live like that so why would I intentionally put my kids in a situation like that? It's compassionate, not selfish.

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

poisongirl6485

For me it goes even beyond that. I would not want to live like that so why would I intentionally put my kids in a situation like that? It's compassionate, not selfish.

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

Couldn't we ask the same thing of people who are against assisted suicide?

macpatti

Couldn't we ask the same thing of people who are against assisted suicide?

If someone wants to end their own life, that's their business. I'd do my best to get them some help before it came to that. But, I don't think anyone has the right to assist someone in a suicide. It then becomes assisted homicide, IMO.

daffodilsoup

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

That's the beauty of choice, though. If abortion isn't in line with someone's morals, then they shouldn't get one - but they also shouldn't make someone else live by their morals. Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean pro-abortion - there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't get an abortion themselves, but respect a woman's right to choose. Just as I would never force a pro-life woman to abort a child who would be born with a disability or deformity, I wouldn't want someone else's morals to deny me power over my own body.

macpatti

That's the beauty of choice, though. If abortion isn't in line with someone's morals, then they shouldn't get one - but they also shouldn't make someone else live by their morals. Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean pro-abortion - there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't get an abortion themselves, but respect a woman's right to choose. Just as I would never force a pro-life woman to abort a child who would be born with a disability or deformity, I wouldn't want someone else's morals to deny me power over my own body.

Well, some people believe an unborn child has rights, too, one being the right to life. So, it isn't about taking away a woman's rights, but speaking up for those with no voice.

ETA: I do realize that pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, and that many women who are pro-choice would never have an abortion themselves.

poisongirl6485

Couldn't we ask the same thing of people who are against assisted suicide?

If someone wants to end their own life, that's their business. I'd do my best to get them some help before it came to that. But, I don't think anyone has the right to assist someone in a suicide. It then becomes assisted homicide, IMO.

I can't imagine telling a terminally ill cancer patient who is slowly dying and in constant pain that they can't peacefully pass on at the time of their choosing because someone else's religious beliefs prevent them from doing so. To me, it's incredibly selfish to deny someone that option just because you don't like it or because your religious beliefs tell you it's wrong.

Additionally, It's not like the 'assistant' is doing it against the person's wishes. The person is dying and suffering and wants to pass on and needs help doing so. There's a big difference between someone who's depressed and not mentally stable wanting to kill themselves and someone who is dying who wants to die with dignity before they rot away in a bed, writhing in pain and cannot move etc. It's not always black and white.

Bahet

That's the beauty of choice, though. If abortion isn't in line with someone's morals, then they shouldn't get one - but they also shouldn't make someone else live by their morals. Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean pro-abortion - there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't get an abortion themselves, but respect a woman's right to choose. Just as I would never force a pro-life woman to abort a child who would be born with a disability or deformity, I wouldn't want someone else's morals to deny me power over my own body.

Well, some people believe an unborn child has rights, too, one being the right to life. So, it isn't about taking away a woman's rights, but speaking up for those with no voice.

And I think the quality of that life matters. It's a factor. A life spent with tubes in your body on various monitors never to leave a hospital and in constant pain with no hope of recovery is NOT a life I consider to be worth living.

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

Their mother. I think that weighs a helluva lot more than the opinion of some stranger who is never going to have anything to do with me or my family.

I wouldn't force my opinion on someone else. If you (God forbid) were pregnant with a baby that was in that bad a state I would never, EVER even consider telling you that you should have an abortion. I may think it is the compassionate choice but if you or anyone else were in that situation I would never even say that. As the mother it would be entirely your choice.

mikajoanow

So, kill your own child so you don't have to wonder what he or she is doing just because you got pregnant by mistake? Wouldn't want to burden yourself with that worry, huh?

If a woman aborts the pregnancy very early on, it's as much of a child as an acorn is a tree. It has the potential to become a child, but that's all.

Yep, or eggs and chicken. They're not the same thing and I can't substitute chicken for eggs in a cake.

macpatti

And I think the quality of that life matters. It's a factor. A life spent with tubes in your body on various monitors never to leave a hospital and in constant pain with no hope of recovery is NOT a life I consider to be worth living.

I don't understand how you can put worth or quality on anyone's life. I just don't get that.

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

Their mother. I think that weighs a helluva lot more than the opinion of some stranger who is never going to have anything to do with me or my family.

Not when it's about ending the baby's life. Just as a mother can't take the life of her newborn. The issue is whether a mother has the right to end her child's life, and if an unborn child is considered a life. To me, it is.

macpatti

I can't imagine telling a terminally ill cancer patient who is slowly dying and in constant pain that they can't peacefully pass on at the time of their choosing because someone else's religious beliefs prevent them from doing so. To me, it's incredibly selfish to deny someone that option just because you don't like it or because your religious beliefs tell you it's wrong.

Being in constant pain or in a state of depression can make people say and do things they normally wouldn't do. You do realize there are ways to put a patient in a medicinal coma, right? That's what the doctors did for my mother-in-law as she was dying of stomach cancer. She was in so much pain that she was praying for death. But, praying for death and really wanting someone to assist you in suicide are not the same. She passed away peacefully without having to commit suicide or have any of us with that on our conscience. I realize this wouldn't be a moral issue for others, though.

poisongirl6485

Not when it's about ending the baby's life. Just as a mother can't take the life of her newborn. The issue is whether a mother has the right to end her child's life, and if an unborn child is considered a life. To me, it is.

Then it's perfectly within your rights to never get an abortion. Not everybody feels that it is taking a life, therefore your opinion on it should not dictate the life of someone in a situation that might need to make a tough decision. Just as I would never advise someone TO get an abortion, I wouldn't presume to tell someone that they should continue a pregnancy just because of my own personal beliefs regarding it.

And to be clear----morally speaking, I'm pretty pro-life in general. But politically/socially, I'm pro-choice. It's not my business nor right to have my personal feelings dictate public policy/laws regarding what other people decide what to do with their own lives/bodies.

poisongirl6485

I can't imagine telling a terminally ill cancer patient who is slowly dying and in constant pain that they can't peacefully pass on at the time of their choosing because someone else's religious beliefs prevent them from doing so. To me, it's incredibly selfish to deny someone that option just because you don't like it or because your religious beliefs tell you it's wrong.

Being in constant pain or in a state of depression can make people say and do things they normally wouldn't do. You do realize there are ways to put a patient in a medicinal coma, right? That's what the doctors did for my mother-in-law as she was dying of stomach cancer. She was in so much pain that she was praying for death. But, praying for death and really wanting someone to assist you in suicide are not the same. She passed away peacefully without having to commit suicide or have any of us with that on our conscience. I realize this wouldn't be a moral issue for others, though.

But to a dying patient, a medical coma until death and assisted suicide are essentially going to be the same thing. Consciousness is gone either way. And if a patient wants to pass along peacefully at their own desire, that's not a moral issue for me.

Bahet

And I think the quality of that life matters. It's a factor. A life spent with tubes in your body on various monitors never to leave a hospital and in constant pain with no hope of recovery is NOT a life I consider to be worth living.

I don't understand how you can put worth or quality on anyone's life. I just don't get that.

And I don't understand how someone can't put worth on the quality of life. I just don't get that.

But who are you to speak for how someone else would or wouldn't want to live their life?

Their mother. I think that weighs a helluva lot more than the opinion of some stranger who is never going to have anything to do with me or my family.

Not when it's about ending the baby's life. Just as a mother can't take the life of her newborn. The issue is whether a mother has the right to end her child's life, and if an unborn child is considered a life. To me, it is.

And again, you say baby, I say fetus with potential to become a baby.

It's most definitely also about the mother's life. If she finds out at her 20 week ultrasound that her baby is incomptable with life and at most would live a few months I cannot imagine the thought process that would force her to not only continue the pregnancy for another 5 months but then force her to watch as her baby slowly and painfully dies.

And as a secondary to the emotional trauma, you would force her and any existing children into bankruptcy to pay for those medical bills if she didn't have insurance. So now not only did she have to go through all of that rather than getting an abortion but now it has financially ruined her and her family forever as well. How is that humane? I can't think of many things more cruel and inhumane. How can you not put any consideration towards the mother? That boggles my mind.

Bahet

I can't imagine telling a terminally ill cancer patient who is slowly dying and in constant pain that they can't peacefully pass on at the time of their choosing because someone else's religious beliefs prevent them from doing so. To me, it's incredibly selfish to deny someone that option just because you don't like it or because your religious beliefs tell you it's wrong.

Being in constant pain or in a state of depression can make people say and do things they normally wouldn't do. You do realize there are ways to put a patient in a medicinal coma, right? That's what the doctors did for my mother-in-law as she was dying of stomach cancer. She was in so much pain that she was praying for death. But, praying for death and really wanting someone to assist you in suicide are not the same. She passed away peacefully without having to commit suicide or have any of us with that on our conscience. I realize this wouldn't be a moral issue for others, though.

I'd be so pissed off at my family that I'd come back and haunt their butts if they wasted money to keep me in a "medical coma" until I eventually died rather than just giving me a lethal dose of morphine (if I were ever in that sort of condition. Not now. Don't want to give the teenager any ideas :paranoid: :laugh: )

macpatti

And again, you say baby, I say fetus with potential to become a baby.

Of course. This is the root of the debate between pro-lifers and those who are pro-choice. I believe it is a baby with human rights, but can't speak for itself. I don't believe mothers have the right to end their own child's life.

It's most definitely also about the mother's life. If she finds out at her 20 week ultrasound that her baby is incomptable with life and at most would live a few months I cannot imagine the thought process that would force her to not only continue the pregnancy for another 5 months but then watch as her baby slowly and painfully dies.

I hold mothers who go through this in high regard. I can't imagine having to carry a baby you know would die soon after birth. I can't imagine watching my child die. I also could not ever end my own child's life, regardless of prognosis, emotional trauma to me, or financial reasons. Just couldn't do it.