The "N" word
Replies
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History matters here (as mentioned by SkateboardFi).
This word was used by whites to strictly oppress blacks. This word has never oppressed white people. To over simplify - this isn't our word. We don't need to be using it *because* of its history. However, it's not our place to decide for black people the etiquette for use of this word as it's been used to dehumanize them and their ancestors for centuries. It is still actively an oppressive term. We're the dominant race in the US so we don't stand to lose our position of dominance or to become oppressed when black people use the word with each other.
Bottom line: we don't always get to make the rules. This is one of those times. It's not our business. Keep it movin'.
ETA: Black people are not a monolith. Even if you've been given permission by your black friends to use this word, don't think it applies to everyone. Whether the rules are strange or not doesn't matter.0 -
Without reading all the other posts, I'll say I never use that word or any variation of it. I don't understand why a person of African American decent would either. But I suppose I don't need to make policy for everyone. I'm 53 and wonder if the time I grew up might have something to do with my aversion to that word.0
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I disagree. No one owns words.History matters here (as mentioned by SkateboardFi).
This word was used by whites to strictly oppress blacks. This word has never oppressed white people. To over simplify - this isn't our word. We don't need to be using it *because* of its history. However, it's not our place to decide for black people the etiquette for use of this word as it's been used to dehumanize them and their ancestors for centuries. It is still actively an oppressive term. We're the dominant race in the US so we don't stand to lose our position of dominance or to become oppressed when black people use the word with each other.
Bottom line: we don't always get to make the rules. This is one of those times. It's not our business. Keep it movin'.
ETA: Black people are not a monolith. Even if you've been given permission by your black friends to use this word, don't think it applies to everyone. Whether the rules are strange or not doesn't matter.0 -
More oversimplification. I don't like when people shorten my name from Victoria to Vicky without asking for my permission. I don't own the name Victoria, however, it does apply to me, and I get to decide whether I want to be called that - you (or whoever is speaking my name) do not.
I disagree. No one owns words.History matters here (as mentioned by SkateboardFi).
This word was used by whites to strictly oppress blacks. This word has never oppressed white people. To over simplify - this isn't our word. We don't need to be using it *because* of its history. However, it's not our place to decide for black people the etiquette for use of this word as it's been used to dehumanize them and their ancestors for centuries. It is still actively an oppressive term. We're the dominant race in the US so we don't stand to lose our position of dominance or to become oppressed when black people use the word with each other.
Bottom line: we don't always get to make the rules. This is one of those times. It's not our business. Keep it movin'.
ETA: Black people are not a monolith. Even if you've been given permission by your black friends to use this word, don't think it applies to everyone. Whether the rules are strange or not doesn't matter.0 -
I don't think it's oversimplification at all. I think you are at the crux of the issue.More oversimplification. I don't like when people shorten my name from Victoria to Vicky without asking for my permission. I don't own the name Victoria, however, it does apply to me, and I get to decide whether I want to be called that - you (or whoever is speaking my name) do not.
You don't get to decide whether I call you Victoria or Vicky. You get to decide to listen to it. You get to decide what meaning you want to attach to it. You get to react to me using Vicky. You get to decide how important it is which form I use.
I get to decide whether or not to use Victoria or Vicky, and how I use it. I could innocently use Vicky. I could ignorantly use Vicky. I could maliciously use Vicky. I could respect your wishes and never call you that. I could recognize that the form Vicky may be disrespectful to other Victorias and choose never to call them that either. That is my choice.0 -
Except that's not exactly true. Even within this thread, a black man stated that some of his white friends use the term. You don't get to say what's cool for all white people (or all black people). You *do* get to say what's cool for you.okay. so. let me clear it up. there is a historical context behind that word which makes it pretty much uncool for any white person, ever, to say it.
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That's the catch - that it's so serious and strange - all this power given to a word. You make sweeping statements saying that it's not cool for a white person to use the term ever. I don't agree with that. I wouldn't use the term in front of you, because I now know how you feel and I respect that. Nor would I use the term in front of someone I didn't know - no matter what color they are.
But I can certainly discuss the N-word with black friends. You may not think that's cool, but you should know that the word doesn't *have* to mean hatred or racism. I don't do the "My N..." slang, either. I would discuss the word in historical, racial, or etymological contexts.
Lastly, I'm disappointed that some of the reactions/responses have included violence. There is not only hatred and bigotry embedded within the N-word, but a history of violence. So I think describing reactions to the use of the word with "beat downs" and "*kitten* kickings" does a disservice to your point. My opinion.
lol whatever. as i've said. use the word. but don't get surprised by others' reactions. and sorry, i'm just speaking from personal experience, as i have seen some get handed an *kitten* kicking as a result of being too comfortable with using the word and not respecting boundaries.0 -
History matters here (as mentioned by SkateboardFi).
This word was used by whites to strictly oppress blacks. This word has never oppressed white people. To over simplify - this isn't our word. We don't need to be using it *because* of its history. However, it's not our place to decide for black people the etiquette for use of this word as it's been used to dehumanize them and their ancestors for centuries. It is still actively an oppressive term. We're the dominant race in the US so we don't stand to lose our position of dominance or to become oppressed when black people use the word with each other.
Bottom line: we don't always get to make the rules. This is one of those times. It's not our business. Keep it movin'.
ETA: Black people are not a monolith. Even if you've been given permission by your black friends to use this word, don't think it applies to everyone. Whether the rules are strange or not doesn't matter.
EXACTLY. heaven forbid there's something that is just not welcome domain... and for the record, i'm not discussing actual 'dialogue' about the 'n' word and historical context. i mean using it as a slang word to address others. and you've already said you choose not to use it in that manner so...you're debating for the theoretical right to use it?0 -
SkateboardFi, you do not make it easy to debate with you. I think we can probably both learn some things in this discussion. But you are not being consistent with your message.
You wrote the following:
I disagreed (and still do). I think that's a sweeping statement that gives way too much power to one word. You may disagree. That's fine. But saying that it isn't OK for an entire group of people to ever say a word - any word - isn't going to be supported by any laws or very many cultures.okay. so. let me clear it up. there is a historical context behind that word which makes it pretty much uncool for any white person, ever, to say it.
I think I get what you are saying. Similar to what sunkisses posted, Blacks get to "own" that word. Black people can use it and it mean something different than if white people use it. It's a double standard that I'm OK with. I see that historically, the N-word represents hatred, bigotry and violence toward black people at the hands of white people. So even though modern white people may have nothing to do with that history, the word takes on a different meaning when uttered by a white person.
I challenge you to consider how you feel about a Mexican using the word. Or an Asian using the word. Note that I'm only asking you to consider how it feels, not justify the use of the word.
Well, it's not what you have said. See the first post I quoted. When you make statements about rules for all white people, that is not speaking from personal experience.lol whatever. as i've said. use the word. but don't get surprised by others' reactions. and sorry, i'm just speaking from personal experience, as i have seen some get handed an *kitten* kicking as a result of being too comfortable with using the word and not respecting boundaries.
I am not comfortable using the N-word. But I have talked about the word, and what it means - with friends of varying races and backgrounds. I would never utter the word to someone that didn't know me pretty well. I respect that the word is hurtful to many.
My focus on the how much power we give a word isn't meant to belittle. I'm merely suggesting that it might be a more fruitful endeavor to focus on the intent of someone's message and their behavior. Someone is racist by their actions. They can be racist with their words as well. But it will take more than one word to be racist.
Above was quoting sunkisses post. I'm not sure if the last bit is directed at me, but I will assume so. Forgive me if I am mistaken.EXACTLY. heaven forbid there's something that is just not welcome domain... and for the record, i'm not discussing actual 'dialogue' about the 'n' word and historical context. i mean using it as a slang word to address others. and you've already said you choose not to use it in that manner so...you're debating for the theoretical right to use it?
Yes, I am talking about using the word in a historical context, or simply discussing it as a word. It sounds like you and I agree on much of this now. It didn't sound that way in your earlier posts. What I was saying to your earlier post, as well as my response to sunkisses, is that this idea of word "ownership" plays into the idea of a single word having so much power.
That's fine if some people think the words does have that much power. I can respect that. I don't agree with it. And I think the idea of this one word having so much power is where the early discussion in this thread was going - that if the word has so much power, and is so hateful, why is it used so often and freely among Blacks? This is why I used the phrase "weird rules" - because it sounds like the N-word means a LOT if a white person says it, but means very little when a Black person says it. I get it. And can even see why it's that way. But that's a weird rule.
I contend that I shouldn't use the word because of respect I have for people - people who deserve my respect, and not for fear of an *kitten*-kicking. I respectfully suggest you alter your message similarly, as it will ultimately be more credible. You deserve not to hear me use the N-word because I respect who you are. Isn't that how it should be?0 -
This is an actual convo I had with my neighbor:
Him: "Whassup my *kitten*?"
Me: "Nothing much man, Just gettin in from work."
Him: "Have you seen that *kitten* Danny? He still ain't gave me back my edger yet."
Me: "Man, I told you about letting that *kitten* hold yo' ****. He never returns ****."
Him: "Imma have to bust that *kitten* up over my ****."
Me: " Alright my *kitten*, Imma have to holla at you later. Gotta go see what wifey cooked."
BTW, my neighbor is a board certified Orthopedic Surgeon(who is Puerto Rican), Danny is a Board certified Oncologist(who is white), and I am a board certified PA(who is black). We communicate like this all the time in our close circle. If we are at the hospital among others, we speak the "Kings English". We all are cool with this and are conscious to make sure we do not offend others who may be in our company. I know for a fact that there are whites who use the word *kitten* all the time at home, and blacks who use the term cracker in a derogatory manner, and Brits who use the term Paki(to describe Middle Easterners)...and so on, but will not use it in public. Does it make it right, probably not. Do I have a problem with it...not if I am not exposed to it on a regular basis(from strangers).0 -
SkateboardFi, you do not make it easy to debate with you. I think we can probably both learn some things in this discussion. But you are not being consistent with your message.
how so? i have been pretty consistent with everything. it was asking opinions of this word usage as slang, and i stated my opinion. i feel like it would be redundant to say 'in my opinion, no white person should say...'. clearly i can't make blanket statements about who gets offended just like others can't make the same assumption that it won't offend people
frankly, i'm not thrilled when anyone who isn't black says the word. when dj khaled said it on a track, i wasn't thrilled. when i hear people from the caribbean, from africa etc, use the word, it puzzles me as well.okay. so. let me clear it up. there is a historical context behind that word which makes it pretty much uncool for any white I think I get what you are saying. Similar to what sunkisses posted, Blacks get to "own" that word. Black people can use it and it mean something different than if white people use it. It's a double standard that I'm OK with. I see that historically, the N-word represents hatred, bigotry and violence toward black people at the hands of white people. So even though modern white people may have nothing to do with that history, the word takes on a different meaning when uttered by a white person.
I challenge you to consider how you feel about a Mexican using the word. Or an Asian using the word. Note that I'm only asking you to consider how it feels, not justify the use of the word.
Well, it's not what you have said. See the first post I quoted. When you make statements about rules for all white people, that is not speaking from personal experience.
I am not comfortable using the N-word. But I have talked about the word, and what it means - with friends of varying races and backgrounds. I would never utter the word to someone that didn't know me pretty well. I respect that the word is hurtful to many.
My focus on the how much power we give a word isn't meant to belittle. I'm merely suggesting that it might be a more fruitful endeavor to focus on the intent of someone's message and their behavior. Someone is racist by their actions. They can be racist with their words as well. But it will take more than one word to be racist.
again, i was stating my opinion, just like everyone else. i haven't made any 'rules' just stating my opinion, why i feel this way, and what i've seen consequence-wise in regard of folks who have said this word around the wrong people. other than this first statement, i agree with everything else written here.
i never said that the reason you shouldn't use the word is for fear of *kitten*-kicking. it was because of the historical context of the word and how it makes some people feel. but again, i think we agree for the most part.Above was quoting sunkisses post. I'm not sure if the last bit is directed at me, but I will assume so. Forgive me if I am mistaken.
Yes, I am talking about using the word in a historical context, or simply discussing it as a word. It sounds like you and I agree on much of this now. It didn't sound that way in your earlier posts. What I was saying to your earlier post, as well as my response to sunkisses, is that this idea of word "ownership" plays into the idea of a single word having so much power.
That's fine if some people think the words does have that much power. I can respect that. I don't agree with it. And I think the idea of this one word having so much power is where the early discussion in this thread was going - that if the word has so much power, and is so hateful, why is it used so often and freely among Blacks? This is why I used the phrase "weird rules" - because it sounds like the N-word means a LOT if a white person says it, but means very little when a Black person says it. I get it. And can even see why it's that way. But that's a weird rule.
I contend that I shouldn't use the word because of respect I have for people - people who deserve my respect, and not for fear of an *kitten*-kicking. I respectfully suggest you alter your message similarly, as it will ultimately be more credible. You deserve not to hear me use the N-word because I respect who you are. Isn't that how it should be?0 -
It's a word. Nothing more. If black people don't want others to use it, they should lead by example and cease to use it themselves.
Why is it all right for one person and not the other? Why would Sharpton, Jackson or anyone else make a federal case out of it?
Politics! We strive to be politacally correct above all else. We forget about the people themselves.0 -
Nah, you're making it a bigger deal than it is. Or maybe that's just the way we see it up here.
If everyone became so sensitive about their own minority status, we would never be able to communicate with one another. Labels are wrong, but it's better to remove the power a single word has and to trivialize it, then draw bloodshed.
No one wins out of that
no. it's not about minority status. you have to understand the historical reasons behind why some blacks would be deeply offended by you using it. and if you can't understand that...then that goes deeper than the word itself. i've been called '******', '*kitten*' and whatever other conceivable derivation of this word by whites in different situations and contexts and i can tell you, it's offensive regardless.
Haha you think you understand better than me!
When you grow up as a minority in a country where there is ongoing ethnic genocide, and the people you love are actually killed as opposed to your ancestors than get back to me.
Trust me when I tell u this, you have no idea how bad it could get
this isn't a d*ck measuring contest. i was answering the question. and i STILL stand by my point. this was about whether or not it's okay for whites to use the 'n' word, and guess what. i still feel they shouldn't.
I reread th original OP's comment. It didn't say specifically "whites"0 -
Nah, you're making it a bigger deal than it is. Or maybe that's just the way we see it up here.
If everyone became so sensitive about their own minority status, we would never be able to communicate with one another. Labels are wrong, but it's better to remove the power a single word has and to trivialize it, then draw bloodshed.
No one wins out of that
no. it's not about minority status. you have to understand the historical reasons behind why some blacks would be deeply offended by you using it. and if you can't understand that...then that goes deeper than the word itself. i've been called '******', '*kitten*' and whatever other conceivable derivation of this word by whites in different situations and contexts and i can tell you, it's offensive regardless.
Haha you think you understand better than me!
When you grow up as a minority in a country where there is ongoing ethnic genocide, and the people you love are actually killed as opposed to your ancestors than get back to me.
Trust me when I tell u this, you have no idea how bad it could get
this isn't a d*ck measuring contest. i was answering the question. and i STILL stand by my point. this was about whether or not it's okay for whites to use the 'n' word, and guess what. i still feel they shouldn't.
I reread th original OP's comment. It didn't say specifically "whites"
where's your tardy slip?0 -
No one should use this word in public who is not black. I'm not saying blacks "own" the word (as someone suggested), but it is used in a completely different way. I'd like to argue that even blacks shouldn't use it, but I've come to understand, through many discussions, that it is a word that bonds them. If blacks want to allow their non-black friends to use this word in their presence, then that's their business. But, again, it shouldn't be done in public. There is such a thing as third party harrassment or third party racism, so I would caution anyone saying otherwise.
The word was absolutely used to take the power away from those using it in a deragatory manner, but also to show pride in being black (and that's why it's used among black people).0 -
No one should use this word in public who is not black. I'm not saying blacks "own" the word (as someone suggested), but it is used in a completely different way.
There cannot be restrictions on language based on race. It's either all right for everyone or no one.
People choose to get all worked up over certain issues because it demonstrates their pollitically correct awareness. Politicans like to take issue to get votes.
Individuals like to prove how sensitive they are.
It's all a front anyways. People share their racist comments /jokes or gender biased comments or sexist remarks when they are within their own groups.
It's just words. You think I'm a fat, bald-headed biker cracker? So what. You're not in my inner circle.
You can't stop racism by continually revisiting it and rehashing it over and over. The N word. The C word. They only have power over you if you let them.0 -
There cannot be restrictions on language based on race. It's either all right for everyone or no one.
People choose to get all worked up over certain issues because it demonstrates their pollitically correct awareness. Politicans like to take issue to get votes.
Individuals like to prove how sensitive they are.
It's all a front anyways. People share their racist comments /jokes or gender biased comments or sexist remarks when they are within their own groups.
It's just words. You think I'm a fat, bald-headed biker cracker? So what. You're not in my inner circle.
You can't stop racism by continually revisiting it and rehashing it over and over. The N word. The C word. They only have power over you if you let them.
We cannot stop racism by ignoring it. It should be revisited and rehashed.......until there is no racism (which I'm sure we can all agree there are still plenty of people who are racist). Words do have power. Words hurt. Words hate.0 -
There cannot be restrictions on language based on race. It's either all right for everyone or no one.
People choose to get all worked up over certain issues because it demonstrates their pollitically correct awareness. Politicans like to take issue to get votes.
Individuals like to prove how sensitive they are.
It's all a front anyways. People share their racist comments /jokes or gender biased comments or sexist remarks when they are within their own groups.
It's just words. You think I'm a fat, bald-headed biker cracker? So what. You're not in my inner circle.
You can't stop racism by continually revisiting it and rehashing it over and over. The N word. The C word. They only have power over you if you let them.
We cannot stop racism by ignoring it. It should be revisited and rehashed.......until there is no racism (which I'm sure we can all agree there are still plenty of people who are racist). Words do have power. Words hurt. Words hate.
I am not saying to ignore it. I'm saying quit picking at the scab or it'll never heal.0 -
I am not saying to ignore it. I'm saying quit picking at the scab or it'll never heal.
It won't heal until we eradicate racial slurs, words, jokes, etc.0 -
I am not saying to ignore it. I'm saying quit picking at the scab or it'll never heal.
It won't heal until we eradicate racial slurs, words, jokes, etc.
You win. I'll practice not talking about it and you can keep picking at it.0 -
You win. I'll practice not talking about it and you can keep picking at it.
I'm not saying don't talk about racism. I'm actually saying it's important to talk about it. I will continue to "pick at it" when I hear a racial slur or joke. My usual comment is, "That's not cool".0 -
just saying !!!!
This is hilarious. X'D
I say a variety of words and I honestly believe that it all depends on what you answer to. If someone calls you a racial slur and you get offended, well.. >_>' Sorry?0 -
I say a variety of words and I honestly believe that it all depends on what you answer to. If someone calls you a racial slur and you get offended, well.. >_>' Sorry?
Yeah, we should be able to say anything we want and if someone gets offended, it's their own fault. What a sad statement.0 -
ugh. nevermind.0
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Yeah, we should be able to say anything we want and if someone gets offended, it's their own fault. What a sad statement.
Never brought "faults" into this. o.o What are you talking about?0 -
Yeah, we should be able to say anything we want and if someone gets offended, it's their own fault. What a sad statement.
Never brought "faults" into this. o.o What are you talking about?
No, you didn't say it's their own fault, you just said "well"......0 -
Exactly.
Well?0 -
Exactly.
Well?
Well what? Oh well? Well, too bad? Well, then so be it? Well, that's their problem?????0 -
I would ask what's your problem, but I'm so done being entertained by you. X'D Peace out.0
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Exactly.
Well?
Well what? Oh well? Well, too bad? Well, then so be it? Well, that's their problem?????
actually i was wondering what you meant by that too.0 -
Exactly.
Well?
Well what? Oh well? Well, too bad? Well, then so be it? Well, that's their problem?????
actually i was wondering what you meant by that too.
Do you mean you're wondering what I meant by my questioning her, or what she meant by saying it the first time? I can't tell if you're addressing the question to me or not?0
This discussion has been closed.